Author Topic: Double stone grafting for Mango  (Read 69674 times)

Jsvand5

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2015, 08:57:18 AM »
I am going to give this a try with mangosteen. I have a few small G. Xanthochymus planted right next to each other that are too thin to just do normal wedges.

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2015, 03:57:42 AM »
The initial Double Stone grafted Lemon Zest on two Kent rootstock is now in full sun and planted into a mound and seems to be happy. It is growing at an astonishingly fast rate compared to single rootstock seedlings. The leaves have already turned green and I have removed all parafilm from the union. I'll update with pics soon.

My Double Stone graft of NDM on two Kent rootstock was growing excellent as well with three growth stems but bugs ate two of the stems. The two rootstocks seems to greatly accelerate the growth of NDM even at this early stage compared to my NDM on single rootstock. NDM has grown very slowly for me and some others that I have seen that are planted in the ground. Here is a picture before and after insects ate a couple stems.




Here are a couple pictures of other Double Stone grafted Mango on various rootstocks. I have some on Double rootstocks with one Kent/Haden and with the other rootstock with Kesar/Banganpali/Malika. I also have a couple DS grafts on two Indian rootstock.




sapote

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2015, 07:58:19 PM »
Update on my soft-wood grafting: All 4 scions -- 1 Maha, 2 OKrung Tong, 1 Indian variety --  grafted on one HD bought "Mexican Manila" are ok. Maha is pushing 10mm shoot, and the rest with buds. The root stock is in ground outdoor. They are still under the plastic tubes protection. It seems the best timing for grafting is when the root stock branch is having new growth in warm weather.

Sapote

sapote

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2015, 08:05:50 PM »
P.S.

As I had said I cut a clear plastic bag into 1/2" strips for use in place of parafilm grafting tape which I don't have, and they worked fine and no cost. I also used a short piece of Scotch tape to help secure the end of the strip to the root stock before wrapping it. This makes the job easier since the plastic strip end wanted to slip on a smooth root stock without the Scotch tape.

Tropicdude

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2015, 12:11:19 AM »
Did mine today

1 X double stone,   Maha on Banilejo
1 X single stone, Maha on Banilejo

fingers crossed,  but I think it will be a long shot,  scions were not optimal state.  will upload picture if successful.
William
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simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2015, 08:46:44 AM »
Sapote, I think your grafts will grow well assuming they take. I've had really nice growth on Manilla rootstock. Your plastic bag method demonstrates that you can use some enginuity and don't have to use grafting tape.

Tropic dude, I would love to see some comparisons once your grafts take and start growing. Are your grafts in pots or in the ground? I'm especially interested to see if several years down the road, when these DSG trees are fruiting, the comparison of productivity between double and single stone grafted plants.

Simon

Tropicdude

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2015, 12:03:29 PM »
Sapote, I think your grafts will grow well assuming they take. I've had really nice growth on Manilla rootstock. Your plastic bag method demonstrates that you can use some enginuity and don't have to use grafting tape.

Tropic dude, I would love to see some comparisons once your grafts take and start growing. Are your grafts in pots or in the ground? I'm especially interested to see if several years down the road, when these DSG trees are fruiting, the comparison of productivity between double and single stone grafted plants.

Simon

I started the seeds in loose soil, , then dug them up,  was really surprised how long and developed the roots were in such a short time. then used the technique used in the video.  I heald them together a bit with grafting tape.

I tried to prep the scions before, cutting, but they sprung new growth in just days so they were paste the point,  I had to use unprepped  scions.   so timing was off a bit.   I will keep trying though even if these fail.
William
" The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago.....The second best time, is now ! "

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2015, 09:13:54 PM »
Sapote, it sounds like your grafts are doing fine so far. I think it is necessary to wrap our scions with parafilm or something similar or at least cover with a bag to retain moisture. It may be possible to get takes without it but I would hazard to guess that you will get more takes with a wrap or bag.

It is ok to remove or shave your scion to get a better fit. The more contact you have, the better but if you lose a little bit of cambium, it is ok.

Simon

sapote

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2015, 09:18:25 PM »
With the surprised humidity and the tropical rain in SoCal the last few days, my Maha graft has shoot out more than an inch. I can see the other grafts have started to break through the shell. I believe all 5 grafts are alive. I will post some photos tomorrow. This is too easy than I had thought :)

Sapote

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2015, 09:37:07 PM »
I would like to share with everyone some suggestion I have regarding double stone grafting.

First of all, I have to give credit to shramajeevi for making such a great and informative grafting video. The method of planting seeds directly into the ground works much better than what I originally did which was planting seeds directly next to each other in a pot. I thought I could save a step by not having to pluck out the sprouts and replanting into a pot but when I planted directly into a pot, some sprouts would sprout early and others would sprout later making it difficult to get two sprouts in the copper leaf stage at the same time. It was also difficult to know where or which end of the seed the sprout will come out of. I now plant seeds in a loose bed and select sprouts that are the appropriate size as in the video.

Another thing that I discovered is that Mango seedlings sprout out an extremely long tap root, even at the copper leaf stage. When I planted my original Double Stone Grafted Lemon Zest into the ground, the tap root already hit the bottom of the ~12 inch tall pot and was starting to make a turn. I suggest using a deep pot at least 16-18 inches tall if possible or planting out your DSG plants as soon as the union has healed sufficiently in order to avoid having both rootstocks get pot bound.  I also noticed that my plants that were inoculated with mycorrhizal fungi had extensively longer and more branched roots and also that these roots were much more fragile than normal roots. They are almost crunchy when you snap them and not flexible at all. Just touching these roots can snap them.

I've also had insects and animals eating new growth and knocking scions off my newly grafted plants so it may be a good insurance policy to spray new growth with something to deter insects.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2015, 09:42:49 PM »
With the surprised humidity and the tropical rain in SoCal the last few days, my Maha graft has shoot out more than an inch. I can see the other grafts have started to break through the shell. I believe all 5 grafts are alive. I will post some photos tomorrow. This is too easy than I had thought :)

Sapote

That's great to hear and you have it on good rootstock so you should be getting some fruit in a couple years. Now I suggest you try a Double Stone Graft with your favorite Mango variety. If you can do a regular cleft graft, the DSG is pretty much the same. I now have two Lemon Zest on Florida rootstock, three grafts of LZ on Manilla rootstock and five Double Stone Grafted LZ. Can you guess what my favorite variety is?

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2015, 10:05:56 PM »
Here's some quick updates of my DSG mango.
My first DSG Lemon Zest, the new growth is very beautiful and look extremely healthy.



A DSGed lemon Zest on double Indian seed, I believe this one is Malika and Banganpali.

A couple more DSGed LZ



Here is a DSGed Lemon Zest that was grafted in ground. I dug up two seedlings, planted it here and grafted it. It does have two rootstocks and I'm using a potted plant to shade it from direct sunlight.


Here is a DSGed Nam Doc Mai that was growing really well until some insects ate two of the newly emerging branches. You can see a new bud is getting ready to sprout.

Simon

sapote

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2015, 03:42:00 PM »
Hi Simon, Yours look so healthy. LZ must be your favorite!!! I have not tasted LZ before but know it will be my next grafting project. I have two 24" Manila seedlings in the ground and I will graft LZ on them. PM me if you have 1 or 2 LZ scions that I can buy. You're in SD and I'm in Burbank -- a short shipping time in this case.

Here are some photos I took this morning:
Maha with new shoot. It's the strongest graft compare to other varieties grafted at the same time





Okrung-tong with buds




Indian Alampur -- the slowest graft in the group. it is under the plastic tube




When my Santa Rosa plump died this spring due to soil covered the trunk, I planted some winter-melon into the same hole for the melon to get up the dead tree. I also did the air-layering on my brother Lychee and then replace the dead plump with the Lychee next spring. Winter melon soup this winter:


Sapote

Tropicdude

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2015, 04:32:07 PM »
Quote
Another thing that I discovered is that Mango seedlings sprout out an extremely long tap root, even at the copper leaf stage. When I planted my original Double Stone Grafted Lemon Zest into the ground, the tap root already hit the bottom of the ~12 inch tall pot

I was also a bit surprised at how well developed the root was in just 1 week of sprouting,  I noticed that nurseries here are starting to use the long poly bags, 18" for rootstock.  they told me it make a very big difference in the survival rate of transplant in the field.  next time I do this I will use these bags, plant a few seeds in them, and then cut it open, to extract the little plantlets.  then re plant them double stoned and grafted in another similar long bag.   these bags are hold about as much volume as a3 gallon pot but are longer.  so they could probably stay in these until ready to go in the ground. 
William
" The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago.....The second best time, is now ! "

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2015, 04:13:19 AM »
Tropicdude, I'm going to start looking for those bags for my future grafting experiments. Here are a couple pictures showing how long a Mango seedling tap root can grow for newly sprouted seeds. The ruler is slightly over 8 inches. You can see that the taproot for some of the seedlings that haven't even sprouted a shoot yet can get close to 8 inches before even popping a shoot above ground.

I'm finding out now it's easier to plant a bunch of seeds and collect them as soon as a shoot just breaks the surface of the soil in order to get the seedling with the taproot as short as possible. I broke the taproot of several of the seedlings in the pictures.

Simon




Samu

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2015, 10:48:30 AM »
Simon,
thanks for displaying pictures of those long tap roots of those seeds. Like you and others, I realized this also, and really surprised by what I see every time I dug a young seedling from the ground or remove it  from the pot. I felt so bad when I accidentally cut the taproot.

By the way, which way is better, save the long taproot that is already circling the bottom of the pot, or cut some of it off, then replant it in the ground? Will the cut taproot regrows again, as it would be when you pug a trunk above the ground?
Sam

sapote

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2015, 03:03:07 PM »
Hi Simon,

Your seeds germinated very nice. Could you share how and what environment for the process? When I placed the seeds directly into the soil medium with 1/3 of seed exposed, they either dried off or got molded. I found the best for me was to placed the seed in a clear plastic box with just tiny bit of water, in the warm oven by the pilot gas light. This worked very well if those hairy black mold didn't appear. Once the root was about an inch then it's safe to plant it into a tall 12" milk carton with cut out drains.

BTW, do you have any LZ scions that I can buy from you?

Sapote 

sapote

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2015, 03:06:00 PM »


By the way, which way is better, save the long taproot that is already circling the bottom of the pot, or cut some of it off, then replant it in the ground? Will the cut taproot regrows again, as it would be when you pug a trunk above the ground?

I would try to straight the tip section of the circling tap root vertically into the ground during plating so it will continue going down deep.

Sapote

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2015, 04:24:39 PM »
Hello Sam, If the roots are not too pot bound, I would try to gently untangle the tap root. If the tap root has fully encircled the pot meaning that it has grown completely 360 degrees around the pot making a complete circle, I would root prune. Pruning the tap root will encourage more branching out of the root system, similar to pruning the top canopy but remember that I feel strongly that a fully intact tap root can be beneficial for earlier establishment of mango trees grown in less than ideal conditions as well as benefiting the mango tree in the long term by increasing hardiness in drought conditions.

I am also hypothesizing that a fully intact tap root or perhaps multiple rootstock mango trees may show less tendency for splitting of fruit. I'm just making a guess on this but a fully intact tap root may be able to spread out down and outward for great distances allowing for better access to water and possibly moderating drought stress while holding fruit which may decrease fruit splitting. Others have hypothesized that fruit splitting is caused by lack of certain nutrients so the fully intact tap root and multiple rootstock technology may only lessen the number of cracked fruit although both these techniques may also prove beneficial in better nutrient uptake due to a better overall root system.

Now I'm starting to think if inoculation with mycorrhizal fungi may benefit mango varieties with a tendency toward split fruit by helping with nutrient uptake. Well, I have a double rootstock Nam Doc Mai that has been inoculated with mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria so I guess I'll find out in about 3-5 years unless the double rootstock really accelerates growth, fingers crossed!

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2015, 04:39:48 PM »
Sapote, for germinating the mango seeds, I use two methods depending on how fast I need them to sprout. If I need a seedling ASAP, I remove the embryo from the husk and wrap them up in a moist paper towel and put this into a plastic ziplock bag. I then put this bag of seeds on something very warm like a seedling heat mat, something approximately 95 degrees and you'll see roots pop out within two weeks.

If I'm not in a rush for seedlings, I simply plant the de husked mango embryos directly into my garden soil where I know it will get water at least once a week. I completely bury the embryo with about .5-1 inch of soil. If I'm planting mono seeds, I plant the seed vertically with the hump up, difficult to tell where the hump is with some seeds. If I'm planting poly seeds, I plant the embryo on its flat side.

Actually I have a third technique. Lately I've been planting my mango embryos into large plastic half barrels from Home Depot. I did some experiments with different potting soils in the past and discovered that I got the best sprouting of most varieties of seeds using Miracle Grow potting soil. It works better than the more expensive potting soils I've tried. When seeds are planted with these last two methods, when they sprout will depend on average daily temps.
Simon

Samu

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2015, 07:59:46 PM »
Simon,
Thanks again for all the info you share about what you know to all of us here in this open forum. I am learning a lot from reading them.
Sam.
 
Sam

sapote

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2015, 07:26:39 PM »
Update on my softwood graft.

The larger leaves new growth is from Maha scion. To the right is Okrung Tong with light green leaves. direct below it is another OKrung with scion with 2 branches.


The one inside the plastic tube is Indian Alampur, grafted at the same time but it's a slow grow variety I think. At lower right is the root stock HD Manila new growth with copper red leaves.



I also wanted to post the pic of that same OKrung tong tree where I took the scions, in case it will die. It is having a big section of the trunk with trunk-rot. I opened the wound and apply copper spray fungicide every other day to save it. I saw sap oozed out and felt the soft bark, then cut off the bad part and applied fungicide. It seems making progress as new shoots are coming out. This tree was planted on ground since last year spring, and not a single new leave until now. I think it was my fault that it had root-bound due to having the soil surface with a deep at the trunk, causing water concentrate here and not further out, leading to root bound. After reversing the soil surface this spring, all trees are doing much better with new growths.



Tropicdude

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2015, 12:59:24 AM »
My attempt failed, all three of them  :(  but will try again,  I am not that surprised, I believe the timing was way off.
William
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simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2015, 02:04:01 AM »
Hey Tropicdude, did you use monoembryonic seeds and were the seedlings in the copper leaf stage? I've done 10 DSG and have 8 takes and two failures. My two failures were likely due to poor cuts on the scion and I also remember that the scions were slightly less thick than the width of the combined double rootstocks.

I am doing one test to see if I can get success on Double Stone Grafts if I leave a nurse leaf. This graft was performed on 07/21/15 and the scion is still green and buds are beginning to push. By leaving the nurse leaf, I feel that the seedling may have less probability of aborting the current sprout and pushing a new sprout from the seed, which has happened to me even on DSGs that did take. When I see a thin brown callus on the graft union, there is a high probability of success.

My major worry with leaving the nurse leaf is that the rootstock will push new growth from the leaf node.

Simon




Zarafet

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2015, 08:51:05 AM »
Simon,  do you sell your grafted trees?