Author Topic: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!  (Read 6774 times)

Caesar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
    • PR
    • View Profile
Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« on: September 19, 2016, 12:09:38 AM »
So I've been doing a lot of thinking on integrating livestock on to farms, as I really like the concept of Permaculture in theory (in practice, it seems tough to make the animal part profitable, but doable if you play your cards right). And when I got to pigs (which benefit from a more diverse diet when pastured - they're not really grazers), I started thinking how they always fed loads of Starfruit and Pommarrosas (Syzygium samarangense, S. malaccense, S. jambos, etc.) to the pigs back at the University I went to last year. Which got me thinking: What other tropical trees tend to overproduce fruits and nuts in cultivation? What other fruits could one integrate on a farm to feed pigs?

Aside from those two, I thought maybe some strains of Jackfruit and other Artocarpus (altilis, camansi, etc.) could be worthwhile pig feed, and maybe Brosimum alicastrum as well. I was also taught at the University (in relation to Goats) that Papaya and Watermelon are beneficial against certain parasites, but that may be another topic. Does anyone have any experience with this? Or at least any knowledge on other overproductive tropical fruit & nut trees?

konakid

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • Oakland, CA
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2016, 01:46:18 AM »
I've thought about this a lot as well since I am also interested in integrating permaculture with fruit trees.

I don't have any direct experience with pigs yet, but I've looked into them and some friends have them. I think bananas would be a great fodder since they go off year round and are very productive. Avocados would also be great since they are fairly abundant, go off almost all year between different varieties, are very rich in fat, and pigs love them.

Pigs will eat macadamia nuts, but since the shell is so hard they have to be older and learn how to do it (at least from what I hear). We have about 12 macadamia nut trees that we plan to graze a pig under some day. That would be good protein and fat.

I believe moringa and katuk would be good greens to grow alongside fruit trees. You can chop and drop them and let pigs feast. They also like sugar cane if you cut the stalks down for them.

Breadfruit are very productive for us and we have way too much. Since humans can eat them raw in their overripe, soft phase I would guess that pigs would too but haven't tried this yet. I would guess that jackfruit would be great as well since a tree can produce so many pounds of fruit.

Kona fruit farm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
  • Aloha
    • Big Island; Hawaii. Kona 1700' Elev. Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2016, 02:02:33 AM »
Konakid. Good to see someone else in Kona on this forum.  How big is your farm and what elevation are you at?   I see you have 12 mac nut trees and some other stuff.  Awesome.   I would agree with the avocados and the pigs. 
With 3 acres of prime real estate for growing tropicals... why not create my own garden of eden?? Work in progress

Don

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
    • Brisbane Australia zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2016, 02:42:01 AM »
One word of caution, just about feeding avocados to livestock, I'm pretty sure the leaves skin and seed of avocado are toxic to animals like horses cattle and other critters. Might be good idea to check up on such things. Also coconuts seem to be great pig feed, we went for a trip to some islands and on lifou and Vanuatu they keep there pigs in little pens and split coconuts and the pigs eat the nut and the husk acted like a bedding material. A cook islander mate tells me there is nothing like eating pig fed on coconuts.

FrankDrebinOfFruits

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 390
    • Kauai, HI 12A
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2016, 02:53:41 AM »
When I try to plant good coconuts I find them dug up by the wild pigs. Ones that don't sprout and go rotten, they try to eat those too. I haven't seen any whole nuts that they have cracked open. Not sure if they are just curious about the smell.

Pigs here love high calorie and abundant fruits. Guavas, avocados, mac nuts. Mac nuts they scoop em up, break the hard shell eat the nut and spit out the shell/husk. Avocados, they eat them spin the fruit on their teeth and spit out the seed.  Mangos, they camp out under the tree and wait for them to fall before they pounce.  Pretty amazing.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 02:58:59 AM by FrankDrebinOfFruits »

LivingParadise

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 679
    • Florida Keys, Zone 11a
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2016, 10:51:29 AM »
In keeping with the concept of sustainability though, it would make most sense to use plants that are not considered edible for humans but that are used for tropical livestock feed - of which there are many - and use the overflow of fruits for canning and preserves and powders which can feed humans and provide medicine or nutritional supplementation for them as well. There are people all over the world, and in every corner of the world, who are malnourished or starving, and having an overabundance of food in some areas, it does not make sense to feed that to livestock, who are themselves far less sustainable than plants are. The model of using livestock on a large scale for food is in and of itself unsustainable and inefficient, and totally unnecessary as there are so many plants that grow in the tropics that provide complete protein of high quality and amount, that are drought-resistant and fairly disease-resistant and very cheap to produce (moringa of course being one of these). Surplus produce can be used for sale at fair prices and can easily solve the world's hunger problem. Feeding such food to pigs, which would eat plenty of foods that are not palatable to humans and are cheap and easy to produce, is an insult to the starving. It's also wasted opportunity for modest profits, that would otherwise go down the hole of expensive and unnecessary livestock. One might prefer to keep a small number of livestock purely for the variety and enjoyment of flavors, but they are easily sustained on foods that humans do not eat - in some cases, plants that can also provide a medicinal value to humans when needed. Keeping more than just a handful of animals on a farm doesn't actually serve any purpose, and risks contaminating and damaging food crops.

Many acacias, for example, provide protein for livestock but are not great sources of food for humans. Leucaena leucocephala is another one that grows like an invasive weed, but can be used for livestock fodder (and also has some medicinal value). It can also be used as supports and shade for fruit plants. http://www.tropicalforages.info/key/Forages/Media/Html/Leucaena_leucocephala.htm
Many sources of fruit for humans are not really of high value nutritionally to livestock. Here is a list of tropical feeds and their level of value: http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/t0632e/t0632e04.htm
And also this: https://vslp.org/ssafeed/
Here is also a list of tropical plants for rabbit livestock: http://www.cuniculture.info/Docs/Elevage/Figur-Tropic/chapitre3/plantes-00-Composition.htm

Here's a list of plants poisonous to livestock: http://poisonousplants.ansci.cornell.edu/


If the goal is to be sustainable, there are better ways to do it than to feed perfectly good human food to livestock.

DimplesLee

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 487
  • frustrated permie
    • PHL&AUS
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2016, 11:14:24 AM »
Just my 2 cents - I do own a farm and so do my cousins - from a farming perspective it's actually much more expensive to built facilities to store or process produce and hold on to it for future sale/profit. It's also not profitable to transport produce miles away just to sell them - especially if something is in season and is abundant almost every little corner of a certain region at a given time.

Animals are an important part of permaculture for the main reason that they are there to consume food that would otherwise go to waste and they are pretty good converters of plant and plant based food material into meat.

Yes we can always can, freeze, dehydrate, donate food or give it away to neighbours but there is only a certain amount of produce you can foist on to other people, neighbours co-workers, the strangers who drive by and gawk at your fruit laden trees before the rest go to waste. This is why I love all manner of chooks, ducks and pigs as they are basically omnivores, most especially pigs.

I also have some mature indigofera and trichantera and a couple of azolla laden rainwater fed fishponds as supplementary feed for the goats and the odd carabaos who only eat greens. These ruminants are actually much more disastrous to the farm if they get loose as any small tree whose foliage they don't eat, they will trample down.

Free range Pigs well, they will patiently wait in the shade of a jak or breadfruit or even mangoes so they can eat what falls off the trees, with an occasional wandering off to root for wild yams or sweet potatoes or peanuts left in the ground too long and then end up as sizzling bacon or garlic sausage in a couple of months  :D
Diggin in dirt and shifting compost - gardeners crossfit regime :)

Don

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
    • Brisbane Australia zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2016, 12:46:02 PM »
Avocado, toxic to horses cattle goats and dogs. Nothing mentioned of pigs, may be immune to the chemical persin being omnivorous like humans. Can cause respiratory distress, congestion and fluid buildup around the heart leading to death. Persin is found in the bark, leaves, skin and pit. Some varieties have higher levels of the chemical.

Grapebush

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
    • Portugal, Madeira Island, Funchal, 11
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2016, 12:51:21 PM »
A few years ago my family used to have pigs, and we gave them almost any fruit and they will eat it all. The most commons were avocados, cherimoyas, oranges and a few types of guavas; but also from time to time mangoes, grapes, persimons, peaches and plums.
Another thing that isn't a tree, but that we used to fed our pigs with was Sechium edule fruits; each year I used to collect maybe a few tons of it, just to give it to pigs. It's very productive, fast growing, almost careless, it controls weeds, and pigs love the fruits. Also if you cultivate it in a shallow soil (no deeper than 1,5m) you can also harvest the tubers that are also edible, and very good in taste; around here people prefer it to the fruit. The tubers are harvested when the vines die, and before it starts growing again!
Life is all about learning, but sometimes, the more you learn, the less you seem to know...

Luisport

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • New in tropical fruit growing!
    • Fatima, Portugal
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2016, 01:15:49 PM »
A few years ago my family used to have pigs, and we gave them almost any fruit and they will eat it all. The most commons were avocados, cherimoyas, oranges and a few types of guavas; but also from time to time mangoes, grapes, persimons, peaches and plums.
Another thing that isn't a tree, but that we used to fed our pigs with was Sechium edule fruits; each year I used to collect maybe a few tons of it, just to give it to pigs. It's very productive, fast growing, almost careless, it controls weeds, and pigs love the fruits. Also if you cultivate it in a shallow soil (no deeper than 1,5m) you can also harvest the tubers that are also edible, and very good in taste; around here people prefer it to the fruit. The tubers are harvested when the vines die, and before it starts growing again!
WOW! That pigs meat should be wonderfull!   :P

Caesar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
    • PR
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2016, 02:51:55 PM »
it would make most sense to use plants that are not considered edible for humans but that are used for tropical livestock feed - of which there are many

Theoretically, if the Human food is productive enough (and nutritious enough for all parties involved), it makes more sense to plant them twice (for humans and animals), and so any excess produced in either area could feed the other (and it seems to me it could go both ways). In contrast, feed can be used ONLY for livestock, and any excess can't be fed back to humans. Additionally, almost all non-human based livestock forage is grazer food, which is useful for pasture-raised pigs but they're not designed for such a strict diet; they need a little more nutritional oomph than mere grass and legume forage can provide. Food for pigs (like non-forage commercial cattle diets) are usually based on some variant of human food anyway, be it grain, starch crops, vegetables or what have you, so weather the plants grown are more useful for humans is a moot point for pigs, since they eat the same stuff, not the graze forage.

*Note: I have been contemplating the Babirusa, which is better adapted for a Grazer/Browser diet and is amenable to domestication, but that's another tangent altogether; besides, there's no guarantee I could get them, but pigs are readily available.


There are people all over the world, and in every corner of the world, who are malnourished or starving, and having an overabundance of food in some areas, it does not make sense to feed that to livestock, who are themselves far less sustainable than plants are... Surplus produce can be used for sale at fair prices and can easily solve the world's hunger problem. Feeding such food to pigs, which would eat plenty of foods that are not palatable to humans and are cheap and easy to produce, is an insult to the starving. It's also wasted opportunity for modest profits, that would otherwise go down the hole of expensive and unnecessary livestock.

Bold: Livestock is not more nor less sustainable than plants are. That's not an issue inherent to the livestock itself, but to the practices under which they're currently raised. Western diets include too much meat, but we don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater by giving up meat altogether. They're not unnecessary; I wouldn't consider meat, eggs and dairy to be absolutely vital, but it can be sustainably raised and be a good nutritious element of a complete diet.

Not-bold: That's not a food production problem, that's a food distribution problem, as even without my contribution there's more than enough food worldwide to feed the starving right now, but Big Business isn't having any of it. Also, it's an "Either/Or Fallacy" or false dichotomy: I don't have to choose between humans and livestock, both can be done without taking from the other; there is enough, and it should be distributed.

Also, "an insult to the starving"?  ??? That was uncalled for. Please, be civil.


The model of using livestock on a large scale for food is in and of itself unsustainable and inefficient, and totally unnecessary as there are so many plants that grow in the tropics that provide complete protein of high quality and amount, that are drought-resistant and fairly disease-resistant and very cheap to produce (moringa of course being one of these). One might prefer to keep a small number of livestock purely for the variety and enjoyment of flavors, but they are easily sustained on foods that humans do not eat - in some cases, plants that can also provide a medicinal value to humans when needed. Keeping more than just a handful of animals on a farm doesn't actually serve any purpose, and risks contaminating and damaging food crops.

Bold 1: I agree, which is why I dislike and reject industrial models of most kinds of agriculture, but just because a farm is big doesn't mean it has to adhere to industrial principles; people focus so much on producing huge amounts on little land that they don't realize how damaging such intensive efforts can be. A more modest amount across a wider swathe of land is much more sustainable (even if not as productive), especially when you're dealing with diversity (which can help the local wildlife, if you don't object to small losses).

Unbold: I don't object to those plants. But again, it's an "Either/Or Fallacy"; you don't have to get rid of one to use the other, you don't have to see the value of one as being a replacement to the other, and just because it's an alternative doesn't mean it's an improvement (I consider both on equal terms). For the second point, see my first reply of this post.

Bold 2: I don't intend to keep huge amounts of livestock, but my primary desire is self reliance (to an extent), and I can't keep a closed reproductive herd of a few animals without suffering inbreeding depression. If I'm going to keep a closed herd (and I'd like to, to maintain my breed standards and be self-reliant in that respect), I need enough animals to account for genetic diversity (not sure how many that is, but I'd go with the minimum). Besides, I don't intend to keep many animals in a small space. If I were to undertake this project, I'd like a vast area where each animal can be comfortable and have more contribution than impact on the surrounding environment. And I wouldn't be dealing with industrial quantities (despite the needed genetic diversity), I'd like to operate on small artisanal farm type principals. The large scale (I.e. population size) is to prevent inbreeding depression, but I wouldn't be operating the commercial/productive aspects of the farm on large-scale principles. It's nowhere near as productive nor efficient as industrial farms, but if I can minimize the impact on the environment (or contribute positively to it outright) and gain a simple steady paycheck, then I'm satisfied. Besides, it would be a diversified farm anyway, so not every crop there would be destined for the pigs. And if properly managed (rotation, etc), Pigs don't have to hurt your crops, nor do they have to hurt the soil.


Many acacias, for example, provide protein for livestock but are not great sources of food for humans. Leucaena leucocephala is another one that grows like an invasive weed, but can be used for livestock fodder (and also has some medicinal value). It can also be used as supports and shade for fruit plants. http://www.tropicalforages.info/key/Forages/Media/Html/Leucaena_leucocephala.htm
Many sources of fruit for humans are not really of high value nutritionally to livestock. Here is a list of tropical feeds and their level of value: http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/t0632e/t0632e04.htm
And also this: https://vslp.org/ssafeed/

I was planning on growing Wattleseed anyway, but I digress. Leucaena leucocephala is very mildly toxic to animals despite its use as a forage, and over here it's a very nasty weed. I wouldn't willingly grow it when I'm trying to eradicate it off my current land. Some weediness is good for some crops, as far as I'm concerned, but it's a case by case basis and Leucaena does not pass muster for me. It has spread all over the south of the island, and I'm pretty sure its environmental impact hasn't been fully positive. And it sinks a very deep taproot. As for the rest, see my first reply of the post; too much emphasis on ruminant forage (it even mentions that it's for ruminants on the page you provided), when I'm talking about pigs, which do share dietary features in common with humans. I don't have much doubt in the way of ruminants, and given their irrelevance to a fruit forum I decided not to mention them here. Since Pigs theoretically might be fed on fruits (which, being an alternative use for them, is relevant here), I focused my topic on them.


Here is also a list of tropical plants for rabbit livestock: http://www.cuniculture.info/Docs/Elevage/Figur-Tropic/chapitre3/plantes-00-Composition.htm

I don't think I intend to deal with Rabbits, but thanks for the info.


Here's a list of plants poisonous to livestock: http://poisonousplants.ansci.cornell.edu/

Some of those are only facultatively toxic (Sorghum is well-known as fodder) or otherwise toxic to humans too; not much for my own list of crops.


If the goal is to be sustainable, there are better ways to do it than to feed perfectly good human food to livestock.

From a practical perspective or otherwise, I disagree. See above on the "Either/Or Fallacy" and the practical parts of my reply. If human food is productive enough, then it's good enough for both; it can still be sustainable. It's not a designated amount, if there's not enough for both, you grow more for both (taking care not to encroach on the environment, instead integrating the environment to the farm in a positive way).

*Edit: I think we've gone way off-topic here.  :(
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 02:53:47 PM by Caesar »

Caesar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
    • PR
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2016, 03:05:34 PM »
Edit 2: By the way, when I say "Grow more", I mean as part of the alloted Forage quota, not in addition to it nor as part of the Human Crop quota.

palmcity

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 827
    • Martin County, Fl zone10a
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2016, 03:28:27 PM »
I agree with Caesar on Theory of Permaculture. It does sound like this theory pertains to local environment and not distribution of food to humans around the world... ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture
"Permaculture design emphasizes patterns of landscape, function, and species assemblies. It determines where these elements should be placed so they can provide maximum benefit to the LOCAL environment."

It appears that world wide distribution out of the LOCAL environment would be another topic.

I do not grow pigs but I doubt if the pigs care if humans do, can, or would eat the food planted for them. It also sounds like a good idea planting trees etc. for pigs to eat the fruits on a yearly sustainable basis. 

palmcity

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 827
    • Martin County, Fl zone10a
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2016, 04:34:45 PM »
Feeding such food to pigs, which would eat plenty of foods that are not palatable to humans and are cheap and easy to produce, is an INSULT to the starving.

Caesar, I see no way that your use of Permaculture can be interpreted as you INSULTING a starving person in another part of the world nor anyone else using permaculture, regardless of type of crop.   

I now see why you responded in such a long response to Livingparadise...

Livingparadise, do you wish to recant your statement???
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 05:00:59 PM by palmcity »

pineislander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
    • Bokeelia, FL
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2016, 04:38:15 PM »
Caesar,
You should google these words together:
Echo feeding pigs banana stalks

Echo is a missionary training facility that prepares US people to deal with issues such as food insecurity poverty, etc. which they will encounter as missionaries in the 3rd world. During a tour of their facility in Ft. Myers, Florida I saw their pig raising system in action. They had a boar in a roofed pen living on 2-3 ft deep litter. They fed him mainly on fermented banana stalks, some supplemental grains and surplus/damaged produce/vegetable matter. The fermentation was mildly alcoholic and the operation produced a large amount of compost when the pen was cleaned out. There was no objectionable smell and he seemed happy, clean and cool. It seemed nearly ideal and might be scaled up on a unitized basis or larger pen housing multiple animals.

I support the ideals of permaculture and plan to implement my own medium scale project very soon.
This system could be a nearly closed loop with the compost produced being used to fertilize the banana plants with the input of 'overproductive' fruits/vegetables yielding a salable product besides pork -more bananas!
There may be certain Musaceae which are highly nutritious or productive of stem.
I urge you to look into this since it isn't re-inventing the wheel and seems to have been successful.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 04:40:52 PM by pineislander »

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3389
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2016, 05:51:38 PM »
Hi: chachafruto is great for u, erithryna edulis
ONLINE SHOP:

https://www.huertasurbanas.com/shop

30% Discount Coupon: FIRST

Caesar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
    • PR
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2016, 08:28:10 PM »
There's so much good stuff in this thread, it's awesome! I'll definitely keep it all for reference.

Caesar, I see no way that your use of Permaculture can be interpreted as you INSULTING a starving person in another part of the world nor anyone else using permaculture, regardless of type of crop.   

I now see why you responded in such a long response to Livingparadise...

Livingparadise, do you wish to recant your statement???

Thanks man. But anyway, don't worry about it. If he's this passionate about the topic, his heart must be in the right place. If he's still unconvinced by my rebuttal and wishes to keep discussing it, he can do so without fuss. All I ask is that he keep it civil and impersonal. No one likes feeling accused of being purposefully wasteful (especially as that wasn't my intent), but perhaps I read too much into it.


Caesar,
You should google these words together:
Echo feeding pigs banana stalks

Echo is a missionary training facility that prepares US people to deal with issues such as food insecurity poverty, etc. which they will encounter as missionaries in the 3rd world. During a tour of their facility in Ft. Myers, Florida I saw their pig raising system in action. They had a boar in a roofed pen living on 2-3 ft deep litter. They fed him mainly on fermented banana stalks, some supplemental grains and surplus/damaged produce/vegetable matter. The fermentation was mildly alcoholic and the operation produced a large amount of compost when the pen was cleaned out. There was no objectionable smell and he seemed happy, clean and cool. It seemed nearly ideal and might be scaled up on a unitized basis or larger pen housing multiple animals.

I support the ideals of permaculture and plan to implement my own medium scale project very soon.
This system could be a nearly closed loop with the compost produced being used to fertilize the banana plants with the input of 'overproductive' fruits/vegetables yielding a salable product besides pork -more bananas!
There may be certain Musaceae which are highly nutritious or productive of stem.
I urge you to look into this since it isn't re-inventing the wheel and seems to have been successful.

Do they have a webpage? I'd love to look into that project myself. I wonder if Ensete would work out. It certainly grows much bigger and thicker, but I don't recall if it grows more slowly too.


Hi: chachafruto is great for u, erithryna edulis

Does it require boiling as it does for humans or can pigs handle the toxins without issue? That one's been on my list for a long time, but I haven't been able to find it yet.

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3389
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2016, 07:15:39 AM »
Quote
Hi: chachafruto is great for u, erithryna edulis

Does it require boiling as it does for humans or can pigs handle the toxins without issue? That one's been on my list for a long time, but I haven't been able to find it yet.


You can give them the leaves, fresh.

http://www.banrepcultural.org/sites/default/files/lablaa/faunayflora/balu/25.pdf
http://www.banrepcultural.org/sites/default/files/lablaa/faunayflora/balu/26.pdf

For cows and sheeps (rumiants), fresh seeds. Chikens, pigs, rabbits and fish: cooked.

I planted 1 chachafruto tree at my garden (doing very good) and I will be planting another one, they should bear fruit in 2 years, then I can send you some seeds
ONLINE SHOP:

https://www.huertasurbanas.com/shop

30% Discount Coupon: FIRST

Caesar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
    • PR
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2016, 12:12:00 PM »
Quote
Hi: chachafruto is great for u, erithryna edulis

Does it require boiling as it does for humans or can pigs handle the toxins without issue? That one's been on my list for a long time, but I haven't been able to find it yet.


You can give them the leaves, fresh.

http://www.banrepcultural.org/sites/default/files/lablaa/faunayflora/balu/25.pdf
http://www.banrepcultural.org/sites/default/files/lablaa/faunayflora/balu/26.pdf

For cows and sheeps (rumiants), fresh seeds. Chikens, pigs, rabbits and fish: cooked.

I planted 1 chachafruto tree at my garden (doing very good) and I will be planting another one, they should bear fruit in 2 years, then I can send you some seeds


Excellent! Thanks for the info, and the offer, I'm looking forward to it!

Hmm... It hadn't occurred to me to feed the fruit tree's foliage. Still relevant, and it opens up the conversation to ruminants (which I'm interested in). I know there's great success with using Mulberry leaves as forage. What other Fruit tree is productive as a foliar forage?


DimplesLee

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 487
  • frustrated permie
    • PHL&AUS
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2016, 11:40:09 PM »
Caesar I've had both goats and pigs strip grape vines of foliage - I don't know if this is normal for other animals (say cattle) but eversince the pigs discovered where the grape vines were (this is in the farm back in the Phils) my caretaker regularly finds them spending hours in there stripping off new growth off the trunk. Both animals have also managed to defoliate young olive trees and sassafras and a lot of muntingia and moringa which were planted as living fences. Left unattended I've discovered pigs will also eat the young banana suckers - they mainly like to eat the white soft pulp inside the pseudostem.
Diggin in dirt and shifting compost - gardeners crossfit regime :)

stuartdaly88

  • Phytomaniac
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1186
  • Zone 9b/10a
    • South Africa, Gauteng
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2016, 03:15:06 AM »
Humans can eat grape leaves too! Dolmades are made with grape leaves and are delicious :D
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau

tallman

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 30
    • San Diego atm
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2016, 01:50:26 PM »
Did anyone mention  mulberry? Those leaves are excellent fodder.

greenman62

  • CharlesitaveNB
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1277
    • [url=https://vgruk.com/]vgr uk[/url]
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2016, 07:31:50 AM »
Permaculture also has to do with efficiency, inputs and outputs...
getting the most bang-for the buck, so to speak.
and from that perspective, animals are not very efficient.

To me, it would make more sense to be able to take any extra food, and trade it for something you need,
or, sell it.

Animals have the potential to be much more work and/or problems...
Vet bills, making sure they are fed, water, disease, space, noise, fencing/pens, butchering etc...

The amount of area used to feed an animal is much more efficiently used by growing crops for humans instead.

If you are someone who just has to have bacon to be happy, well, i guess that has to be taken into consideration also,
but to me thats a large price to pay.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 07:34:55 AM by greenman62 »

palmcity

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 827
    • Martin County, Fl zone10a
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2016, 09:50:32 AM »
Permaculture also has to do with efficiency,
, animals are not very efficient.

To me, it would make more sense to be able to take any extra food, and trade it for something you need,
or, sell it.

Well, I think it's most efficient to be an omnivore::: An omnivore is an animal that eats food from both plants and animals, which may include eggs, insects, fungi and algae. Very efficient...

However some prefer to be carnivores::: A carnivore is an animal that gets food from killing and eating other animals.

And others prefer calling themselves vegetarians but not truly being able to be a Herbivore::: A herbivore is an animal anatomically and physiologically adapted to eating plant material, for example foliage, for the main component of its diet. As a result of their plant diet, herbivorous animals typically have mouthparts adapted to rasping or grinding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore

And once again in reality Humans are Omnivors. https://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

On an efficiency standpoint the best case scenario for humans: Birth - growth to sexual maturity - procreation - new offspring development equal approximate of parents survival ability - Parents should now die unless further procreation to occur - offspring reach sexual maturity - procreate - repeat cycle and make sure parents who will no longer procreate are tilled under the soil for better efficiency as quickly as possible to save resources.   

Would I want this? NO...

Sooo, imo each has their opinion. Best efficiency is not always a desired outcome.

I don't care if someone wants to eat plant, animal, insects, fungi, algae, etc. It's silly to try to get someone to believe that one way is best.

It's silly to try to get someone to expend more resources and energy to go along with ones ideology.

Shipping is expensive and a waste of resources when the product could be used and or consumed locally or local permaculture. 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 09:54:41 AM by palmcity »

Caesar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
    • PR
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2016, 10:11:39 AM »
here is a description of feeding bananas pseudostems to pigs.

https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/echocommunity.site-ym.com/resource/collection/F6FFA3BF-02EF-4FE3-B180-F391C063E31A/An_introduction_to_Asian_Natural_Farming_-_Pig_Production.pdf

https://www.echocommunity.org/en/resources/579add28-94df-4a20-aeee-71a183989293

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=echo+feeding+pigs+banana+stalks

That info is gold! Thanks Pineislander.


Caesar I've had both goats and pigs strip grape vines of foliage - I don't know if this is normal for other animals (say cattle) but eversince the pigs discovered where the grape vines were (this is in the farm back in the Phils) my caretaker regularly finds them spending hours in there stripping off new growth off the trunk. Both animals have also managed to defoliate young olive trees and sassafras and a lot of muntingia and moringa which were planted as living fences. Left unattended I've discovered pigs will also eat the young banana suckers - they mainly like to eat the white soft pulp inside the pseudostem.

Interesting. I'm not sure Grapevine is very productive in leaf, but at least we know it's an option, and I'd imagine old established vines can take defoliation without a problem. I once found a page describing Muntingia as almost being good forage, but apparently not taking well to repeated cutting, but I couldn't find it again just yet.


Humans can eat grape leaves too! Dolmades are made with grape leaves and are delicious :D

I'd love to try such a recipe. But first, I gotta get my grapevine up and growing.


Did anyone mention  mulberry? Those leaves are excellent fodder.

I did. They actually taught me that one in college, apparently it makes a spectacular forage. I brought back an alba tree with me to plant at home, next to my nigra tree.


Permaculture also has to do with efficiency, inputs and outputs...
getting the most bang-for the buck, so to speak.
and from that perspective, animals are not very efficient.

To me, it would make more sense to be able to take any extra food, and trade it for something you need,
or, sell it.

Animals have the potential to be much more work and/or problems...
Vet bills, making sure they are fed, water, disease, space, noise, fencing/pens, butchering etc...

The amount of area used to feed an animal is much more efficiently used by growing crops for humans instead.

If you are someone who just has to have bacon to be happy, well, i guess that has to be taken into consideration also,
but to me thats a large price to pay.


I hear what you're saying. For the longest time, I focused all my plans on plants, 'cause I figures animals are more complicated. But they've been an integral part of agriculture for a long time, and I always wanted to see if I could get to produce them without the environmental impact of industrial agriculture. Besides, I thought they were vital to permaculture, otherwise you'd just have veganic agriculture (a fine alternative, but I like eggs and dairy). I always thought permaculture had more to do with diversity and synergy between components (efficiency, but in the context of the farm's ecosystem).

At any rate, I rarely look at efficiency so much as effectiveness. If there is a net loss in the efforts you're making, clearly you're doing something wrong. But if there's no such loss (better still, if there's some actual gain, however minor), then I consider it a success, even if it's inefficient. Don't get me wrong, I like efficiency as much as the next guy, and strive for it whenever I can. But just because efficiency is important doesn't mean it's THE most important thing for me. There's a lot to be done, and every individual has to get their own set of priorities in order before they get started on any project.

Animals are more work (and problems, as you say), but for the people in that line of work those are just challenges. Besides, I can't imagine a low intensity, low animal density, pasture-based farm could incur such costs in the same way that an industrial farm would. Sure, there's less gain with less output of product, but I'm seeking to integrate low cost of production into the design as well, so it's balanced (if it works). There's no "feed" bill if you're growing all their food, and no need for additional fertilization if you use compost, manure, green manure and nitrogen fixers in the system. At least, I hope I have my theory right (do correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm actually not that fond of most meats (it's a taste thing), nor of the slaughtering process. But I do like animals. Dairy goats and laying chickens were a certainty in my plans, I just wondered if a good system could be put in place for pigs as well. I came back from that field trip a little frazzled with what they make the pigs go through, and tried to mentally design a farm that could produce them (in small quantities) with little to no environmental impact and no suffering for the animals. A more natural system. So I guess you could say, I didn't go into this thinking "what could I do with this waste/excess from my crops?". I came into this thinking "how could I make pig farming a greener endeavor?". And the thread's idea was born.

palmcity

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 827
    • Martin County, Fl zone10a
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2016, 10:20:10 AM »
Caesar: "I came into this thinking "how could I make pig farming a greener endeavor?". And the thread's idea was born."
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 10:37:37 AM by palmcity »

Caesar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
    • PR
    • View Profile
Re: Overproductive Fruit Trees... As fodder!
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2018, 08:58:54 PM »
Well... Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I found a relevant article that was interesting, so I figured I'd post it here:

https://permaculturenews.org/2018/06/14/8-abundant-fodder-forest-plants-use/

A fodder forest sounds like a great thing to integrate into the farm, if you have animals to feed. And several of the listed plants can even feed you if need be.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk