Cold Tolerant Bananas

[Pancrazio]

Bananas will grow and fruit in much colder places than NE Thailand. I've seen them fruiting at 6000 ft (1900 meter) elevation in Sikkim, India where they get snow in winters. I've posted about this in another thread before. For coldest tolerant bananas google Sikkim + banana and Darjeeling+banana. They have several cultivars that are snow tolerant.

I must have missed that thread.
I'm doing some research to see if there are some kind of bananas that can fruit in our souther european climate, and so far seems that that things can be done, but definitevly the right cultivar still needs to be found. I wonder of many of the banana cultivars used in northest india/souther china have been able to reach the international hobbist banana market.
The next year i'll try some cultivar that seem reasonably cold hardy, and we will see. I'm aware of chini champa, helen's hybrid and pahari kela, but if wonder if there is some other plant that should be tried. 

[bsbullie]

I am not sure of your temp limits/ranges but Raja Puri can take much cooler temps, and survive and fruit, that most.

[Pancrazio]

I have tried rajapuri last winter but i wasn't impressed... maybe my winter is colder than expected, i don't know.
My climate is pretty similiar, according my researchs, to the climate of virginia beach, in Viriginia. The main difference compared to virginia beach, are the absolute minimum temperatures, i'm a bit milder, on average, than that, (so far i got 23F on night, and this may have been indeed the colder night of this winter) but our hot season is pretty much as lenghty.

So far i have identified those cultivar that look promising:

Helen's hybrid,
chini champa,
malbhog,
cardaba,
pahari kela.

An honorable mention should go to musa saba, because i have heard that resiststo very cold temperatures, but ti becomes so big that is almost unmanageable.
I don't know if anyone has experience with any of those. Everyone but one are readily aviable on european market, but i guess that out there there must be some more cultivars worth of attention.

[nullzero]

Try dwarf Orinoco, it produced for me in a 25 gal container. Its reported to be quit cold hardy.

[bsbullie]

I have tried rajapuri last winter but i wasn't impressed... maybe my winter is colder than expected, i don't know.
My climate is pretty similiar, according my researchs, to the climate of virginia beach, in Viriginia. The main difference compared to virginia beach, are the absolute minimum temperatures, i'm a bit milder, on average, than that, (so far i got 23F on night, and this may have been indeed the colder night of this winter) but our hot season is pretty much as lenghty.

So far i have identified those cultivar that look promising:

Helen's hybrid,
chini champa,
malbhog,
cardaba,
pahari kela.

An honorable mention should go to musa saba, because i have heard that resiststo very cold temperatures, but ti becomes so big that is almost unmanageable.
I don't know if anyone has experience with any of those. Everyone but one are readily aviable on european market, but i guess that out there there must be some more cultivars worth of attention.

As to your comment on the Raja Puri, growing or eating?  I have found they do very well in cooler climates and they have excellent taste (of course, a lot depends on what taste you like in a banana).

Of the list you mentioned, I am not familiar with any of those here in SFla.  It seems you get colder than "cool" as someone living in Virgina would have a tough time growing/fruiting bananas.  FHIA 23 and Ice Cream are also cool tolerant but not sure as tolerant as your climate.  Are you growing these outdoors in the ground or in a pot?  If in the ground, what is the duration of your cold temps per day and how cold does your ground get?

[Pancrazio]

As to your comment on the Raja Puri, growing or eating?

Yes, sorry, growing. I haven't been able to eat anything different from cavendishes and del monte ladyfingers.

I have found they do very well in cooler climates and they have excellent taste (of course, a lot depends on what taste you like in a banana).

My bad experience with that plant come from my attempt to overwinter it in my car box along with some other plants. I dug it and put it in my box. As the tempetarure lowered, the pseudostem turned translucent (you know, like when you cook a vegetable). While pretty much the same happened with the dwarf namwah, this one recovered pretty quickly when putted in an hotter environment (the cooked parts became brown and dissecated and the plant overwintered fine) while the rajapuri slowly died.

Of the list you mentioned, I am not familiar with any of those here in SFla.  It seems you get colder than "cool" as someone living in Virgina would have a tough time growing/fruiting bananas.  FHIA 23 and Ice Cream are also cool tolerant but not sure as tolerant as your climate.  Are you growing these outdoors in the ground or in a pot?  If in the ground, what is the duration of your cold temps per day and how cold does your ground get?

I know, my climate is far from ideal... i'm a bit hotter than virginia, but still too cold.
Regarding method of culture, i'm not too fussy. I'm pretty much in for every reasonable method that can allow me to harvest a bunch.
I'd like to try to grow them in full ground though, because i like the plant, and in ground they attain bigger sizes.
The problem with my climate is that even if lowest minimum aren't very low, our daily maximum is pretty low too because sun is really low on the horizon right now (we have the same latitude as Toronto). For about 3 months we can expect max daily temperature at about 50F and minimum in high 30F. I don't know how wich temperature the soil can reach, but i guess pretty low. We can have brief dip at lower temperature but anything under 20F is relatively exceptional (a night over 3 years).
Still i found this, that gives me hope:
http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/26731/1/36010048.pdf

Try dwarf Orinoco, it produced for me in a 25 gal container. Its reported to be quit cold hardy.

I have that!  Is overwintering just fine in my greenhouse with my mangoes. Is still a small platnlet, though.

[venturabananas]

So far i have identified those cultivar that look promising:

Helen's hybrid,
chini champa,
malbhog,
cardaba,
pahari kela.

An honorable mention should go to musa saba, because i have heard that resiststo very cold temperatures, but ti becomes so big that is almost unmanageable.

Cardaba is a Saba subgoup cultivar and is also very tall, though it is cool tolerant.

Malbhog is in the Silk subgroup and is either very similar to or the same as Manzano, which does OK with cool temperatures but is not amazing in that regard.

Chini Champa is a name most commonly associated with a Mysore subgroup cultivar.  This subgroup does OK with cool temperatures, but isn't outstanding in its ability to deal with them.

Helen's Hybrid is seeded, so not really an edible banana, from what I've read.

Pahari Kela, who knows what it is?  It may just be a different name for a fairly common banana -- or something really interesting.  It doesn't show up in the MGIS database, which is the most complete list of banana cultivars.  The online descriptions make it sound very much like a Bluggoe subgroup banana, which includes Orinoco.

Dwarf Namwah is the best I've seen in dealing with cool temperatures.  But where I live, it is a rare event to get frost, let alone snow.  Frost on the leaves of any banana will kill the leaves.  Dwarf Namwah looks healthy after repeated nightly exposure to cool temperatures near freezing, whereas all the other varieties I have (including for example, Orinoco, Rajapuri, Mysore, and Manzano) have considerable yellowing of the leaves.

[fruitlovers]

Bananas will grow and fruit in much colder places than NE Thailand. I've seen them fruiting at 6000 ft (1900 meter) elevation in Sikkim, India where they get snow in winters. I've posted about this in another thread before. For coldest tolerant bananas google Sikkim + banana and Darjeeling+banana. They have several cultivars that are snow tolerant.

I must have missed that thread.
I'm doing some research to see if there are some kind of bananas that can fruit in our souther european climate, and so far seems that that things can be done, but definitevly the right cultivar still needs to be found. I wonder of many of the banana cultivars used in northest india/souther china have been able to reach the international hobbist banana market.
The next year i'll try some cultivar that seem reasonably cold hardy, and we will see. I'm aware of chini champa, helen's hybrid and pahari kela, but if wonder if there is some other plant that should be tried.

Go to search button at top of page and search for the thread. Malbhog was one i ate that was pretty good, as it only had a very few seeds inside. A lot of the very cold tolerant types from Sikkim and Darjeeling are loaded with seeds.

[Pancrazio]

Cardaba is a Saba subgoup cultivar and is also very tall, though it is cool tolerant.

The saba group seems worth of attention. Their downside is that the bunch takes a lot to ripen, and probably (i'm almost sure) i'll have to cut it before winter (if i ever get to that point). Another dowside is that i have found two different plants called "saba/cardaba", one with ABB, and the other with BBB. The most cold tolerant should be the latter, but no nurseries tells you what kind of genome you are buying.

Malbhog is in the Silk subgroup and is either very similar to or the same as Manzano, which does OK with cool temperatures but is not amazing in that regard.

Chini Champa is a name most commonly associated with a Mysore subgroup cultivar.  This subgroup does OK with cool temperatures, but isn't outstanding in its ability to deal with them.

Helen's Hybrid is seeded, so not really an edible banana, from what I've read.

Pahari Kela, who knows what it is?  It may just be a different name for a fairly common banana -- or something really interesting.  It doesn't show up in the MGIS database, which is the most complete list of banana cultivars.  The online descriptions make it sound very much like a Bluggoe subgroup banana, which includes Orinoco.

You are bursting my bubbles!
Pahari Kela seems really interesting but apparently it isn't avaiable on the market.

Dwarf Namwah is the best I've seen in dealing with cool temperatures.  But where I live, it is a rare event to get frost, let alone snow.  Frost on the leaves of any banana will kill the leaves.  Dwarf Namwah looks healthy after repeated nightly exposure to cool temperatures near freezing, whereas all the other varieties I have (including for example, Orinoco, Rajapuri, Mysore, and Manzano) have considerable yellowing of the leaves.

Yes, dwarf namwah seems so good under every aspect that i'll surely try it once more with a different approach.
I just need to undestand its litmits. It survived to my last winter but i made a couple of stupid mistakes, and i killed it.
I should get several plantlets to do experiementation, but things can get quite expensive in that regard.

Go to search button at top of page and search for the thread. Malbhog was one i ate that was pretty good, as it only had a very few seeds inside. A lot of the very cold tolerant types from Sikkim and Darjeeling are loaded with seeds.

I wonder why nobody uses that bananas to breed some new cultivar...

[venturabananas]

The saba group seems worth of attention. Their downside is that the bunch takes a lot to ripen, and probably (i'm almost sure) i'll have to cut it before winter (if i ever get to that point). Another dowside is that i have found two different plants called "saba/cardaba", one with ABB, and the other with BBB. The most cold tolerant should be the latter, but no nurseries tells you what kind of genome you are buying.

Some Saba subgroup bananas are listed as BBB, but that is a mistake.  They are all ABB.

A lot of the very cold tolerant types from Sikkim and Darjeeling are loaded with seeds.

I wonder why nobody uses that bananas to breed some new cultivar...

I think that is just not a focus of any of the big breeding programs.  They are aiming for disease resistance, not cold tolerance.  They want to breed bananas that do well in areas already known for growing bananas.  Banana breeding sounds like a nightmare.  From what I've read, in the FHIA program they sort through literally tons of banana fruit pulp to get a handful of hybrid seeds from each cross, most of which won't germinate.  Needle in a haystack odds.

Given that I live in a relatively cool area for growing bananas, I'd love to see some new cool tolerant varieties.  You could argue that by developing such varieties you could reduce the disease problems by expanding banana production into cooler areas, given that the major banana diseases so far don't seem to be able to survive in cool conditions.  Of course, I'd expect the disease organisms would evolve tolerance to cooler conditions, and then you'd be back to needing new, disease resistant varieties.

[Pancrazio]

Some Saba subgroup bananas are listed as BBB, but that is a mistake.  They are all ABB.

Too bad! BBB could have been really hardy. I have seen some saba listed as BBB and i really hoped them were able to witstand the cold we experience here.
I wonder if there are then triploid balbisiana that produce good bananas.

I think that is just not a focus of any of the big breeding programs.  They are aiming for disease resistance, not cold tolerance.  They want to breed bananas that do well in areas already known for growing bananas.  Banana breeding sounds like a nightmare.  From what I've read, in the FHIA program they sort through literally tons of banana fruit pulp to get a handful of hybrid seeds from each cross, most of which won't germinate.  Needle in a haystack odds.

Given that I live in a relatively cool area for growing bananas, I'd love to see some new cool tolerant varieties.  You could argue that by developing such varieties you could reduce the disease problems by expanding banana production into cooler areas, given that the major banana diseases so far don't seem to be able to survive in cool conditions.  Of course, I'd expect the disease organisms would evolve tolerance to cooler conditions, and then you'd be back to needing new, disease resistant varieties.

I agree with every word of you. You can't excape from disease unless you eradicate them completly, simple because even diseases evolve.
And extending the zone where they can be grown a little myabe isn't worth the effort of a breeding program.

As for me, banana are pretty much disease free. I guess that my climate is simply too cold for disease. I'm completly out of bananas zone.

Can you tell me one more thing? Why basjoo isn't used as pollinator for breeding hardy bananas? I can't comment for taste, but basjoo are alla around here, it seems pretty hardy in my climate, and it is an Eumusa, also. I'm not saying that it should be used fror breeding by scientific institution, maybe it hasn't the agronomical caracteristics, but it could be used for breeding by some hobbist. It is feasible?

[venturabananas]

Too bad! BBB could have been really hardy. I have seen some saba listed as BBB and i really hoped them were able to witstand the cold we experience here.
I wonder if there are then triploid balbisiana that produce good bananas.

My understanding is that there are no "edible" (i.e., seedless) pure M. balbisiana genome plants.

Can you tell me one more thing? Why basjoo isn't used as pollinator for breeding hardy bananas? I can't comment for taste, but basjoo are alla around here, it seems pretty hardy in my climate, and it is an Eumusa, also. I'm not saying that it should be used fror breeding by scientific institution, maybe it hasn't the agronomical caracteristics, but it could be used for breeding by some hobbist. It is feasible?

I'm not sure about the answer, but I think it is because M. basjoo and M. acuminata are not genetically compatible despite both being in the Eumusa group and so cannot produce hybrids.  You should ask this question on bananas.org.  I'm sure at least a few people there would know the answer.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

here is a banana that my friend grows.  Does anyone know what type it is?

It routinely freezes, and the tree will still fruit, but it makes lots of seeds, and the fruit isn't the best.
I ate a few just to taste, and they would be ok for survival, but not for the lunch box.

He still has thousands of seeds if anyone is interested in some. 

thanks

[Pancrazio]

It must be musa balbisiana. I'm not an expert though-

[Recher]

Snow and dessert bananas do not go together. However snow and Musa sikkimensis do.

The short stature bananas are the most cold hardy e.g. chinese cavandish, goldfinger, .....

[venturabananas]

here is a banana that my friend grows.  Does anyone know what type it is?

It routinely freezes, and the tree will still fruit, but it makes lots of seeds, and the fruit isn't the best.
I ate a few just to taste, and they would be ok for survival, but not for the lunch box.

He still has thousands of seeds if anyone is interested in some. 

thanks

Yes, definitely Musa balbisiana.  The retained gray bracts on the rachis is the key.

[venturabananas]

The short stature bananas are the most cold hardy e.g. chinese cavandish, goldfinger, .....

Those two varieties don't handle the cold nearly as well as Dwarf Namwah (= Dwarf Ducasse), Rajapuri, and Dwarf Brazilian, which are also all short-stature plants.

[Bob407]

I am waiting for warmer weather to germinate these, I hope it won't take six to twelve months. They are supposed to be cold hardy.

[fruitlovers]

So far i have identified those cultivar that look promising:

Helen's hybrid,
chini champa,
malbhog,
cardaba,
pahari kela.

An honorable mention should go to musa saba, because i have heard that resiststo very cold temperatures, but ti becomes so big that is almost unmanageable.

Cardaba is a Saba subgoup cultivar and is also very tall, though it is cool tolerant.

Malbhog is in the Silk subgroup and is either very similar to or the same as Manzano, which does OK with cool temperatures but is not amazing in that regard.

Chini Champa is a name most commonly associated with a Mysore subgroup cultivar.  This subgroup does OK with cool temperatures, but isn't outstanding in its ability to deal with them.

Helen's Hybrid is seeded, so not really an edible banana, from what I've read.

Pahari Kela, who knows what it is?  It may just be a different name for a fairly common banana -- or something really interesting.  It doesn't show up in the MGIS database, which is the most complete list of banana cultivars.  The online descriptions make it sound very much like a Bluggoe subgroup banana, which includes Orinoco.

Dwarf Namwah is the best I've seen in dealing with cool temperatures.  But where I live, it is a rare event to get frost, let alone snow.  Frost on the leaves of any banana will kill the leaves.  Dwarf Namwah looks healthy after repeated nightly exposure to cool temperatures near freezing, whereas all the other varieties I have (including for example, Orinoco, Rajapuri, Mysore, and Manzano) have considerable yellowing of the leaves.

Don't think the Malbhog is at all similar to Manzano, either in looks or cold hardiness. I think you must be confused with another type of banana. I've pesonally seen Malbhog growing at 6000 ft. elevation in Sikkim. BTW it looks more like a ice cream banana in shape and texture.

[venturabananas]

Don't think the Malbhog is at all similar to Manzano, either in looks or cold hardiness. I think you must be confused with another type of banana. I've pesonally seen Malbhog growing at 6000 ft. elevation in Sikkim. BTW it looks more like a ice cream banana in shape and texture.

If you think the ones you've seen under the name Malbhog were not all similar to Manzano, then I don't doubt you.  But most cultivars to which that name is applied are in the Silk subgroup (the subgroup that includes Manzano), and are probably either identical or very similar to Manzano.  Search for "Malbhog" at: http://www.crop-diversity.org/banana/#AccessionSearch

It would be very interesting to find out what exactly the Malbhog you've seen were.

[fruitlovers]

Don't think the Malbhog is at all similar to Manzano, either in looks or cold hardiness. I think you must be confused with another type of banana. I've pesonally seen Malbhog growing at 6000 ft. elevation in Sikkim. BTW it looks more like a ice cream banana in shape and texture.

If you think the ones you've seen under the name Malbhog were not all similar to Manzano, then I don't doubt you.  But most cultivars to which that name is applied are in the Silk subgroup (the subgroup that includes Manzano), and are probably either identical or very similar to Manzano.  Search for "Malbhog" at: http://www.crop-diversity.org/banana/#AccessionSearch

It would be very interesting to find out what exactly the Malbhog you've seen were.

You can see a photo here:
It had 4-6 seeds inside each fruit. I believe it is the only one called Mahlbog inside of Sikkim.

[venturabananas]

Thanks for the photo Oscar.  Without a picture of the entire plant with an inflorescence, it isn't really possible to narrow this one down to subgroup, but the general appearance doesn't rule out the Silk subgroup.  That said, if I had to place a bet, I'd guess it's a Pisang Awak ("Namwah") cultivar for three reasons: the fruit looks right for that subgroup, they are perhaps the most cold hardy edible bananas, and they are partially fertile, so the few seeds would not be surprising for this subgroup.

[Bananimal]

Hi Pan --- another way to go is short cycle.  Viente Cohol is being promoted by the U of Ga to enable Georgia farmers to have a cash crop in the fall.  Planting 2 to 3 foot VC suckers after last danger of frost will yield harvestable fruit by Sept/Oct.  This year will be my first go with the VC as well as Chini Champa.

And the Dwarf Namwah is short cycle enough to get fruit by fall.  Should winter very well in Firenze with some protection.  Same as with the VC start out with only large pups.

[Pancrazio]

Hi Pan --- another way to go is short cycle.  Viente Cohol is being promoted by the U of Ga to enable Georgia farmers to have a cash crop in the fall.  Planting 2 to 3 foot VC suckers after last danger of frost will yield harvestable fruit by Sept/Oct.  This year will be my first go with the VC as well as Chini Champa.

And the Dwarf Namwah is short cycle enough to get fruit by fall.  Should winter very well in Firenze with some protection.  Same as with the VC start out with only large pups.

Thank you for your suggestion!
Yes, i have always wanted to try the Viente Cohol, but here in europe we miss a reliable source for that. I searched it inside the EU for a couple of years, with no luck, or at least someone willing to do international shipping. Maybe i found a source for them in thailand. I'll keep the forum updated in about a couple of months (it's too cold now here for banana shippings, they wouldn't recover from the stress).
I'm also searching for the Seņorita banana, it is another short cycle banana, and it seems to have everything i'm searching for, fast ripening (40-54 days), short stature (it should be even shorter than Viente cohol), great sweet taste, but it looks like an exceedingly rare plant, outside the philippine.

Regarding the dwarf namwah, i'll try to overwinter several dwarf namwah in different places next winter, so i'll be able to understand which method does better.

I'm pretty sure bananas can be grown here, i just have to find the right cultivar.

Congratualation for you bunch of pisang klotek, by the way. They look awesome!

[msk0072]

Hi Pancrazio
What is your source for bananas?

[Pancrazio]

So far i have bought bananas from those sources:

http://palmscenter.de/ (2011)
http://www.bananen-freak.de/ (2012)

My experience was very positive with both of them.
I haven't had any interaction with the seller in both cases (i just ordered through the webshop). The plant were, in both cases, from what appeared to be tissue culture, well packed, shipped quickly.
For the next year i plan to order from:

http://www.bananenshop.de/
http://www.gekko-enterprise.com/ (this one for international order)

So i can't actually comment on the quality of the plants of those two. I didn't had any interaction with the first one, but i talked quite a bit with the latter and he is a very nice guy, very willing to help, so i have nice expectations. Be sure, if you plan to order from the latter, to ask for his complete catalogue, since he has a very high number of cultivar for sale  (more than 200), but they don't appear on the main page. Just remember to check for synonims.
Good luck!

[msk0072]

Thanks. I will try to contact the shop owners and see what they have.

[msk0072]

So far i have bought bananas from those sources:

http://palmscenter.de/ (2011)
http://www.bananen-freak.de/ (2012)

My experience was very positive with both of them.
I haven't had any interaction with the seller in both cases (i just ordered through the webshop). The plant were, in both cases, from what appeared to be tissue culture, well packed, shipped quickly.
For the next year i plan to order from:

http://www.bananenshop.de/
http://www.gekko-enterprise.com/ (this one for international order)

So i can't actually comment on the quality of the plants of those two. I didn't had any interaction with the first one, but i talked quite a bit with the latter and he is a very nice guy, very willing to help, so i have nice expectations. Be sure, if you plan to order from the latter, to ask for his complete catalogue, since he has a very high number of cultivar for sale  (more than 200), but they don't appear on the main page. Just remember to check for synonims.
Good luck!

One more source in Germany:
http://www.frosthartepalmen.de

[edzone9]

Musa Basjoo Will take snow ! but the fruit is not edible.

The Orionoco i found to be Very cold hardy , this winter in NE Florida we had several nights in the low 20s.

Lost all leaves came right back this spring.
Good Luck.