Author Topic: citrus location - will this work?  (Read 2303 times)

strom

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citrus location - will this work?
« on: May 04, 2020, 12:24:46 PM »
Hi:

I have one in-ground location and am trying to figure out what to put there that won't go past 8ft high or so, and I'm considering an orange or mandarin.  It gets about 2 hours of full sun in the morning, then 2-3 in the mid afternoon, and up to 4 hours in the late-afternoon/evening, between May and September, maybe more once it gets past 6ft in height.  The rest of the year, this reduces quite a bit (maybe 5-6 hours total) due to my south neighbor's house blocking path of the sun. The area is also subject to a breeze, sometimes strong.  Will this work, or should I consider a different type of fruit tree, or forget having a fruit tree here at all?

Thanks for your time.

giorgosgr.

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2020, 12:29:04 PM »
one neighbour here has an orange tree that has a lot of shade and grows and fruits well. If the height is limited to 8ft i would consider only mandarin as oranges tend to get quite big. Even if you try pruning to maintain size 8ft is just too little.

strom

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2020, 03:25:13 PM »
Interesting, okay.

I'm really curious about your comments on height.. I see many non-commercial gardens with shorter citrus and avocado trees, 5-7 ft, producing without issue?  Are these just coincidences, or do I need to get my ocular measuring tape re calibrated :)

I did forget to mention I'm coastal southern CA, zone 10a.

giorgosgr.

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2020, 03:32:59 PM »
Interesting, okay.

I'm really curious about your comments on height.. I see many non-commercial gardens with shorter citrus and avocado trees, 5-7 ft, producing without issue?  Are these just coincidences, or do I need to get my ocular measuring tape re calibrated :)

I did forget to mention I'm coastal southern CA, zone 10a.

In my opinion they are not just old enough. i have some oranges that are 20+ years old and it would be impossible to keep them that short. If you dont care for that long term investment then it would be fine to keep it under 8ft

strom

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2020, 04:03:42 PM »
Cool.  On walk in neighbordood, I realized height in this part actually won't be an issue!  There's another area in my yard it would be, but I already have plants in the ground, and I am limited to pots.  There are plenty of neighbors who have similar plan as me, and they have tall queen palms or various trees extending up well above rooftops.

Now to decide which mandarin.  Time to continue research :)  Thank you for the input!

Bomand

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2020, 04:07:51 PM »
It appears that you do not have a "perfect place.
  The perfect situation IMHO is on the South side of a building,  preferable one that is occupied.  In an area that is protected from cold or damaging wind. As to size I have several navals that are only about 10 feet tall. They are grafted on Flying Dragon rootstock. This limits their size. I also pruned so that I have a main trunk, several big horizontal supporting branches and a good dome shaped crown. I prune wayward branches. The trees will set what fruit they can support. I also have support poles to place under heavily fruit laden branches. It iz not a sin to prune when you do it with a purpose and a goal in mind.

containerman

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2020, 04:11:51 PM »
Cool.  On walk in neighbordood, I realized height in this part actually won't be an issue!  There's another area in my yard it would be, but I already have plants in the ground, and I am limited to pots.  There are plenty of neighbors who have similar plan as me, and they have tall queen palms or various trees extending up well above rooftops.

Now to decide which mandarin.  Time to continue research :)  Thank you for the input!

I have 12 mandarins growing in pots and they all produce plenty of fruit.I use 1/2 wine barrels made from synthetic materials. I also have 3 lemon varieties and 1 bearss lime and washington navel in pots.

strom

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2020, 05:16:06 PM »
@Bomand: I'm on a "zero lot line" property, so my neighbors house is directly due south and is what causes the spats of shade through the day in the summer, and through most of the day in the winter when the sun's arc is lower.

@containerman: For now, I'm looking to put one tree in this final opening in my ground :)  But yes, I would like to do a few trees in containers on my balcony which has a 3x8ft section with almost full sun spring to fall, so this could potentially house two or three smaller trees.  Trouble is, it gets rather hot there.  I'm planning on using light-colored fabric pots and incorporating some kind of shading (either companion plants of sorts or little umbrellas) over the pots to keep them from cooking the roots. 

containerman

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2020, 06:38:00 PM »
@Bomand: I'm on a "zero lot line" property, so my neighbors house is directly due south and is what causes the spats of shade through the day in the summer, and through most of the day in the winter when the sun's arc is lower.

@containerman: For now, I'm looking to put one tree in this final opening in my ground :)  But yes, I would like to do a few trees in containers on my balcony which has a 3x8ft section with almost full sun spring to fall, so this could potentially house two or three smaller trees.  Trouble is, it gets rather hot there.  I'm planning on using light-colored fabric pots and incorporating some kind of shading (either companion plants of sorts or little umbrellas) over the pots to keep them from cooking the roots. 

My citrus containers are all in 1/2 wine barrels made from plastic in full sun in the Modesto Area of the Central Valley and it gets plenty of days in 100 plus. My trees stay healthy all summer. I'll post a pic of a tree in the containers I use. You can find them at Lowes, HD and Costco for $10 -$18 range on sale. Below are my Tahoe, Yosemite and Shasta Golds





« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 06:44:13 PM by containerman »

strom

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2020, 08:15:21 PM »
Cool!  They look very healthy!  Did you go through the "up-pot" procedure or just plant directly into the big containers?

I've seen the wine barrels, and considered them, but ended up going with the mesh containers just to try something different :)  I've lost everything that I tried growing on the balcony so far, but now I'm armed with knowledge of many theories proven by those of the internet, so, let's give it a try :) 

Millet

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2020, 10:10:59 PM »
Storm wrote .'I've lost everything that I tried growing on the balcony so far".

Reading this sentence the very first thought that entered my mind was, the type of medium your trees were growing in.

containerman

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2020, 10:43:36 PM »
Storm wrote .'I've lost everything that I tried growing on the balcony so far".

Reading this sentence the very first thought that entered my mind was, the type of medium your trees were growing in.
Me too. I use a variation of " Als 5-1-1 gritty mix.

strom

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2020, 10:43:35 AM »
Storm wrote .'I've lost everything that I tried growing on the balcony so far".

Reading this sentence the very first thought that entered my mind was, the type of medium your trees were growing in.
Organic potting soil and a lot of perlite, it was free draining, no pooling with good watering.  I changed it twice over 4 years.  Both trees were doing "okay" for the first year, but didn't really put out any new growth, and a lot of spiders seemed to really enjoy webbing the leaves.  In the last year, one of the plants developed black-ish leaves, I cut it back a bit, no growth after almost a year, everything dried up.  The other one just kind of never put out new growth for 2 years, and then all the branches just dried up.  However, there's growth occurring below the graft on the rootstock.  I've already removed both, so no pictures. 

Once the stay-home is lifted, I'm going to visit a few nurseries and bix-box stores, find a couple nice citrus for potting and a mandarin for the outside ground spot (unless I find a different fruit for it, I like unique things), and am debating whether to use a variation of citrus potting mix with 50% extra inorganics, the 5-1-1 (plus turface fines, so, 5-1-1-1), or the 1-1-1 gritty (which'll get heavy).  Fortunately no HLB in my area yet, Plant Depot is pretty close to me and still sells citrus.

Still a few things left to figure out, but, feels like I'm on the right track?

Millet

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2020, 11:29:14 AM »
"Potting soil", which is basically just another word for peat moss, and adding perlite is not a good medium to grow a citrus tree in.  Peat should NEVER be the major ingredient in any growth mixture. Such a mix retains too much water, and not enough oxygen.  This is the reason that storms trees are not producing new growth.  High peat moss mixes have killed potting plants for years. Over time peat moss soon packs, restricting oxygen to the root system. The number one mixture used the world over contains three ingredients, either bark, peat and perlite, or bark peat and builders sand.  Bark, being the major portion of the mix, provides both spacing for oxygen and water flow.  Laaz uses turface, which is acting as the bark, the ingredient giving a medium good aeration.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 11:43:50 AM by Millet »

containerman

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2020, 12:28:37 PM »
"Potting soil", which is basically just another word for peat moss, and adding perlite is not a good medium to grow a citrus tree in.  Peat should NEVER be the major ingredient in any growth mixture. Such a mix retains too much water, and not enough oxygen.  This is the reason that storms trees are not producing new growth.  High peat moss mixes have killed potting plants for years. Over time peat moss soon packs, restricting oxygen to the root system. The number one mixture used the world over contains three ingredients, either bark, peat and perlite, or bark peat and builders sand.  Bark, being the major portion of the mix, provides both spacing for oxygen and water flow.  Laaz uses turface, which is acting as the bark, the ingredient giving a medium good aeration.
I found a good local source for Forest Humus that is the right size since I cannot find the pone bark fines locally for Als 5-1-1 gritty mix. I also use Fox Farms Ocean Forest in my mix with equal parts of Forest Humus and Perlite.

strom

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2020, 01:58:55 PM »
Hi, the potting soils don't list peat at the beginning of the ingredients' list, and if they are following rules, then it's not the majority component.  I learned on my own a long time ago using these soils straight up caused water to pool, so I always added a bunch of perlite until they drained.  In the last couple months of research, I have learned about the breakdown of the components, and you have kindly confirmed this for me.  I now understand, and likely so the repotting schedule was probably a little too long.  However, I think there may have been other factors at play ultimately leading to the citrus' demise.

Here are the various potting soils I've bought over the years, however, I don't remember which were used for the specific two citrus that died:
https://www.kellogggarden.com/products/gborganics/gb-organics-potting-soil/
https://www.kellogggarden.com/products/gborganics/gb-organics-blue-ribbon-potting-soil/
https://www.kellogggarden.com/products/kellogg/palm-cactus-citrus/
https://www.kellogggarden.com/products/gborganics/gb-organics-acid-planting-mix/

It seems I am brand loyal, however, it was nothing more than what was available at the time.  For clarification, I am not using these in the avocado or citrus medium.

The bark component - having been unable to find "bark fines".  It doesn't have as much of the fines as what I have seen, and I am testing my avocado transplants in it right now to see how they perform.  Of course, avocados and citrus are different, but, from what I gather, both like well draining mix and enjoy a little dry time.
Seedling bark: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardeners-2-cu-ft-Orchid-Seedling-Bark-8067/100263675

I have some left over from repotting my dozen avocado seedlings of the 5-1-1-1 variation (the last 1 is more like a 0.4, and are turface fines from sifting turface for gritty), so am including a picture.  Before repotting, I tested a black 3 gallon container in the sun with drainage holes, by running water through it, and seeing how long it took to dry out.. somewhere between 4 and 5 days.  I am using pumice instead of perlite, as it's cheaper and closer to me.

Hopefully, it does seem like I am on the right track now?


Millet

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2020, 02:34:57 PM »
Fir bark chips can be found at any larger pet store sold under the name ReptiBark.  ReptiBark can also be found on Amazon.

containerman

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2020, 02:40:02 PM »
Here is what my mix looks like hopefully you can tell from the pics




containerman

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2020, 02:41:30 PM »
It looks good strom and should be well draining too !

containerman

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2020, 02:55:44 PM »
Fir bark chips can be found at any larger pet store sold under the name ReptiBark.  ReptiBark can also be found on Amazon.
I've looked into the reptibark but its so expensive.

strom

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Re: citrus location - will this work?
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2020, 03:07:02 PM »
Fir bark chips can be found at any larger pet store sold under the name ReptiBark.  ReptiBark can also be found on Amazon.
I've looked into the reptibark but its so expensive.

Ditto.  It's okay if you make a couple houseplants, but not in bulk.  The orchid seedling bark looks right.  Would be "nice" if had the organic stamp, but I've written that off recently, just makes things way way too complicated.  It's a little on the pricey side ($11 for 2 cuft), but will do for the first try until I can go explore other options.  I did find an inexpensive source for quality bark as well, but I'd need to break it up myself and I don't have space or tools right now.