Author Topic: Sell seeds Plinia rivularis , popular name Cambucá-peixoto or guaburiti  (Read 35196 times)

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Maybe the seeds are the plinia renatiana : "leaves dark green, shiny and smooth on its upper face. The fruits are relatively large (approximately 4 cm in diameter), yellowish skin and fairly rough surface"

here is link : http://translate.google.sk/translate?hl=sk&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fe-jardim.blogspot.sk%2F2009%2F12%2Fconheca-o-cambuca-rugoso-novidade-do.html


this was already posted in antoher threat but it is about p. rivularis from the same authors:
http://translate.google.sk/translate?hl=sk&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fe-jardim.blogspot.pt%2F2008%2F12%2Fpisando-em-guaburitis.html

Could be another species of plinia. Doubt it is renatiana because photos Ricardo sent to me of the fruit did not have wrinkled exterior. But with 40 species of plinia it could easily be another plinia.
Oscar

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wow Daniel...you do some excellent research...and found some great information.

the plant in question does look more like P. renatiana, based on foliage appearance....but the size of the fruit is much larger than I would expect....4cm is closer to the size of a large jabuticaba, or small cambuca.

lol...now u have me interested in this species.

Wait a minute. Are you back peddling now Adam? In this same thread you also said you were certain this plant in question is not a plinia....that it looks to you like an eugenia? ???
Thanks sanitarium for posting the links. I wasn't aware there are so many different species of plinia. It's certainly possible that many of the 40 species have similar fruit, yet foliage looks different. If this is the case then it makes it even more likely that one or more of the species are misidentified.
Oscar

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I never said I was certain it wasn't a plinia...just certain it's not P. rivularis.

Also said it reminded me more of the plants I have labeled as Eugenia, than the plants I have labeled as Myrciaria / Plinia.

either way, I did note that names Eugenia and Myrciaria are synonymous.

but some plants remind me more of Eugenias (and the plants that botanists place in this genus)

wow Daniel...you do some excellent research...and found some great information.

the plant in question does look more like P. renatiana, based on foliage appearance....but the size of the fruit is much larger than I would expect....4cm is closer to the size of a large jabuticaba, or small cambuca.

lol...now u have me interested in this species.

Wait a minute. Are you back peddling now Adam? In this same thread you also said you were certain this plant in question is not a plinia....that it looks to you like an eugenia? ???
Thanks sanitarium for posting the links. I wasn't aware there are so many different species of plinia. It's certainly possible that many of the 40 species have similar fruit, yet foliage looks different. If this is the case then it makes it even more likely that one or more of the species are misidentified.
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I never said I was certain it wasn't a plinia...just certain it's not P. rivularis.

Also said it reminded me more of the plants I have labeled as Eugenia, than the plants I have labeled as Myrciaria / Plinia.

either way, I did note that names Eugenia and Myrciaria are synonymous.

but some plants remind me more of Eugenias (and the plants that botanists place in this genus)


Your reply #27 above:
"my guess is it's a Eugenia.
this website for the Instituto Brasileiro de Florestas has some pictures that don't belong to them(which are misleading), so you see a large specimen of the true P. rivularis, and also some pics of their small seedlings...which are not the same.  This website has a reputation for mislabeling plants...trust me."
Anyway, i'm not interested in taxonomy labeling contests. I'm mostly interested in finding the best of the eating fruits. If this Plinia X has a better, larger, tastier fruit than Plinia rivularis then you can win the labeling contest as far as i'm concerned, and i'll keep the better of the fruits.  :)
Oscar

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just because I guessed it was a Eugenia (which it may in fact be), doesn't mean I ruled out the possibility it could be a Plinia...if so find me the quote where I do.

like I said, Plinia is synonymous with Eugenia...and the plant Ricardo has, reminded me more of a Eugenia.



Wait a minute. Are you back peddling now Adam? In this same thread you also said you were certain this plant in question is not a plinia....that it looks to you like an eugenia? ???
Thanks sanitarium for posting the links. I wasn't aware there are so many different species of plinia. It's certainly possible that many of the 40 species have similar fruit, yet foliage looks different. If this is the case then it makes it even more likely that one or more of the species are misidentified.
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just because I guessed it was a Eugenia (which it may in fact be), doesn't mean I ruled out the possibility it could be a Plinia...if so find me the quote where I do.

like I said, Plinia is synonymous with Eugenia...and the plant Ricardo has, reminded me more of a Eugenia.



Wait a minute. Are you back peddling now Adam? In this same thread you also said you were certain this plant in question is not a plinia....that it looks to you like an eugenia? ???
Thanks sanitarium for posting the links. I wasn't aware there are so many different species of plinia. It's certainly possible that many of the 40 species have similar fruit, yet foliage looks different. If this is the case then it makes it even more likely that one or more of the species are misidentified.

Just to clarify my position: i think you are probably right, and i am probably wrong. But probability is NOT the same thing as certainty, at least not for me.
Point is, if plant in question is a Plinia, then it's possible it could be Plinia rivularis, especially when there are 40 other species of Plinias. Where are the photos and descripitons of the other 39 species? So how can you be 100% certain of anything...i really don't understand? I don't put as much trust in Lorenzi as you do. Especially because all the plinias seem to be very rare, even in their native country. Only thing i'm certain of is i won't be able to tell which is the better of the 2 fruits until i taste them both.  ;)
Oscar

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Could be another species of plinia. Doubt it is renatiana because photos Ricardo sent to me of the fruit did not have wrinkled exterior. But with 40 species of plinia it could easily be another plinia.

Oscar

would be possible to share with us the photos of the fruit?

thank you
Daniel

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Oscar,

the only thing I'm certain of, is that I have the plant designated as P rivularis by certain individuals who I trust and agree with.

I suppose there is a chance the sources I'm trusting are wrong...but I don't think this is the case.

Ive seen several reliable sources, and they all have the same plant as Lorenzis book.

I can't seem to find many sources that have same plant as Ricardo.

so it makes sense that it's just an oddball plant, that got mixed up.
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Oscar,

the only thing I'm certain of, is that I have the plant designated as P rivularis by certain individuals who I trust and agree with.

I suppose there is a chance the sources I'm trusting are wrong...but I don't think this is the case.

Ive seen several reliable sources, and they all have the same plant as Lorenzis book.

I can't seem to find many sources that have same plant as Ricardo.

so it makes sense that it's just an oddball plant, that got mixed up.

First you should understand that Lorenzi is not a taxonomist. He did hire taxonomists for his book to clear the fruits listed. But not all were so cleared. And so some mistakes are possible. He can make a mistake just like Brazilian forestry department can make a mistake. Also you should understand that if a mistake is made in a book then this mistake will be repeated dozens or even hundreds of times in other places, as they will assume the book to be certainly correct, just as you are now doing. We have seen this already happening with so many plants, like Pachira aquatica, Eugenia tomentosa, Rheedia laterifolia, Garcinia humilis, to name just a few. You can see these erroneous names still being used in so many websites, nurseries, botanical gardens, and even government experimental stations.
To repeat: you are probably right, but not certainly right, until this other plant is positively identified.
Oscar

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Oscar
once again...this isn't news to me...i know lorenzi is not a taxonomist...but like i said, I trust the description in his book.

I also trust Helton, Ejardim, and the detailed description on the blog from Uruguay.

and it was actually in Lorenzis book that the mistake of M glazioviana, being erroneously designated as Eugenia tomentosa, was brought to light....so this is why I believe the contributors to his book are knowledgable and trust worthy in my opinion, when it comes to the subject of native myrciarias/plinias.

just because we haven't identified what plant Ricardo sent, it doesn't mean we can't rule it out as the real P. rivularis.

that would imply that many of the trustworthy scholars in Lorenzis camp (and beyond) are mistaken about the identiy or proper description of P rivularis.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 10:45:55 PM by ASaffron »
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I'm glad you trust Lorenzi's books. Obviously i also think they are excellent or i wouldn't be selling them. But no book is perfect, and nobody is infallible. So errors do occur in the best of books. Don't be shocked if you do find errors.
Changing subject a bit, i wonder what is the difference between genus Plinia, Eugenia, and Myrciaria? If they are substantially different how is it they can be used as synonyms? Will this be a case where later on they are all lumped together?
Oscar

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I'm glad you trust Lorenzi's books. Obviously i also think they are excellent or i wouldn't be selling them. But no book is perfect, and nobody is infallible. So errors do occur in the best of books. Don't be shocked if you do find errors.
Changing subject a bit, i wonder what is the difference between genus Plinia, Eugenia, and Myrciaria? If they are substantially different how is it they can be used as synonyms? Will this be a case where later on they are all lumped together?

Oscar,

I really enjoy what you add to this debate, and respect your point of view....  You brought up some important information in this discussion...about how many mistakes there are...and how we shouldnt be surprised if even the best authors (scientist) are mistaken (Morton is a good example...she was even misinformed or mistaken from time to time...and she was one of the best researchers ever!

good question about the difference between Eugenia and (plinia) Myrciaria...I believe it boils down to  morphology of the flowers, fruits, and seeds...but this is too complex for me to understand now...I don't have much interest in taxonomy, or botany....but i sure like grafting, and collecting new rare plants...and observing, comparing their appearances and attempting identifying them.

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"I also trust Helton, Ejardim, and the detailed description on the blog from Uruguay."

I'm guessing all these folks, and certainly eJardim, are getting their info also from Lorenzi book. So i don't think these are independent or additional sources.
Would be nice to find another book or description of the plinia genus. Anybody know where a monograph of the plinias can be found?
Oscar

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"I also trust Helton, Ejardim, and the detailed description on the blog from Uruguay."

I'm guessing all these folks, and certainly eJardim, are getting their info also from Lorenzi book. So i don't think these are independent or additional sources.
Would be nice to find another book or description of the plinia genus. Anybody know where a monograph of the plinias can be found?

well here how i understand it...

the Uruguay info is definitely not from Lorenzi...I can simply read the description provided and look at the pictures and tell...they have different photos and a different description.

also, I believe Helton is in disagreement with some of the info provided by lorenzi (and his camp), I believe Helton is a scholar from a different camp being that he was not a contributor to Lorenzis projects (at least to the best of my knowledge)

and also, I'm not sure it can be said ejardim is relying on Lorenzis book for the information...I bleieve the owner of that website was the contributing author to the section about eugenias and plniias....hence, his website has even more varieties of myrciaria listed than Lorenzis book altogether!

so yes, I consider these few exemples as independent sources, that all agree.
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I have seen where people go back to original identifications like species descriptions and pictures of type specimens  to sort these kind of issues out. Information gets passed from one reference to another without being verified and people just assume if things are published they are correct. It seems more likely that Forestry made a mistake but perhaps their botanists got it right and the chain leading to Lorenzi's book has a chink. Which one is the real P.rivularis might be less important than which one has the best fruit to eat.

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I have seen where people go back to original identifications like species descriptions and pictures of type specimens  to sort these kind of issues out. Information gets passed from one reference to another without being verified and people just assume if things are published they are correct. It seems more likely that Forestry made a mistake but perhaps their botanists got it right and the chain leading to Lorenzi's book has a chink. Which one is the real P.rivularis might be less important than which one has the best fruit to eat.

u r a total conspiracy theorist.   ;D

and I disagree... its more important to me to have the proper species that I want to collect...sometimes factors like rarity, ornamental beauty, difficulty of procurement, and size/cold heartiness, can trump the aspect of fruit quality.
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No conspiracy and that 'and' could have been an 'or'. Obviously they can't both be correct and there is a wrong ID on one side or another. I suppose with achachairu some may be interested in getting the fruit that is pictured and others might not be satisfied unless they had Garcinia humilis. Now that would be rare.

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"I also trust Helton, Ejardim, and the detailed description on the blog from Uruguay."

I'm guessing all these folks, and certainly eJardim, are getting their info also from Lorenzi book. So i don't think these are independent or additional sources.
Would be nice to find another book or description of the plinia genus. Anybody know where a monograph of the plinias can be found?

well here how i understand it...

the Uruguay info is definitely not from Lorenzi...I can simply read the description provided and look at the pictures and tell...they have different photos and a different description.

also, I believe Helton is in disagreement with some of the info provided by lorenzi (and his camp), I believe Helton is a scholar from a different camp being that he was not a contributor to Lorenzis projects (at least to the best of my knowledge)

and also, I'm not sure it can be said ejardim is relying on Lorenzis book for the information...I bleieve the owner of that website was the contributing author to the section about eugenias and plniias....hence, his website has even more varieties of myrciaria listed than Lorenzis book altogether!

so yes, I consider these few exemples as independent sources, that all agree.

I'm sure Helton is very knowledgeable, but he's a nurseryman just like you and me. Not a scholar, but a nurseryman who happens to have written a book. I don't have Helton's book but i don't think it includes Plinia rivularis? The blog from Uruguay is very nice, but again i don't think this is a product of a scholar, just someone's blog. eJardim is very nice website and this person, Marco Lacerda, is very knowledgeable, and even happens to be a friend of mine. BUT you are providing same source in that he is co-author of the very same book(s). 
It would be good to know why forestry department is calling that plant Plinia rivularis? What are they basing that on? If it is an error then it is also an error that will be copied by others and multiplied.
Oscar

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http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-161403

There are numerous synonyms for this species.One reference says this species has 19 to 20% flesh yield.

http://www.ufrgs.br/fitoecologia/florars/open_sp.php?img=1905

This could be the real deal.


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This site lists 68 accepted species of Plinias, not 40 as was stated earlier in this thread:
http://www.theplantlist.org/browse/A/Myrtaceae/Plinia/
Oscar

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haha now we debate the definition of a scholar...what is a scholar to you?

Helton wrote a book, but is not a scholar?  He has demonstrated a profound knowledge if a particular subject....so to me that is scholarly.

and the detailed description on the  blog from Uruguay was written by someone who doesn't study or have a good understanding of this species??  just an everyday joe, who uses words like, adaxial, suborbicular, and locule, to write an extremely detailed description??  I don't think an uneducated blogger wrote that...it's easy to tell...it was written by a scholar (maybe even copied and pasted by a blogger)!!!!


haha and as for ejardim, I simply noted he did not rely the info from Lorenzis book (like u suggested)...he most likely provided the info!!!




so ejardim, Helton, and all of the other scholars associated with the Brazilian fruits book are in agreement when it comes to the identity of P. rivularis.

I'm a scholar, your a scholar...look up the definition!  We both have a deep understanding of a particular subject (tropical fruits)....and we don't need a certificate to be considered as such!!!




 
"I also trust Helton, Ejardim, and the detailed description on the blog from Uruguay."

I'm guessing all these folks, and certainly eJardim, are getting their info also from Lorenzi book. So i don't think these are independent or additional sources.
Would be nice to find another book or description of the plinia genus. Anybody know where a monograph of the plinias can be found?

well here how i understand it...

the Uruguay info is definitely not from Lorenzi...I can simply read the description provided and look at the pictures and tell...they have different photos and a different description.

also, I believe Helton is in disagreement with some of the info provided by lorenzi (and his camp), I believe Helton is a scholar from a different camp being that he was not a contributor to Lorenzis projects (at least to the best of my knowledge)

and also, I'm not sure it can be said ejardim is relying on Lorenzis book for the information...I bleieve the owner of that website was the contributing author to the section about eugenias and plniias....hence, his website has even more varieties of myrciaria listed than Lorenzis book altogether!

so yes, I consider these few exemples as independent sources, that all agree.

I'm sure Helton is very knowledgeable, but he's a nurseryman just like you and me. Not a scholar, but a nurseryman who happens to have written a book. I don't have Helton's book but i don't think it includes Plinia rivularis? The blog from Uruguay is very nice, but again i don't think this is a product of a scholar, just someone's blog. eJardim is very nice website and this person, Marco Lacerda, is very knowledgeable, and even happens to be a friend of mine. BUT you are providing same source in that he is co-author of the very same book(s). 
It would be good to know why forestry department is calling that plant Plinia rivularis? What are they basing that on? If it is an error then it is also an error that will be copied by others and multiplied.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 12:55:24 PM by ASaffron »
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A scholar is someone who went to school, has a degree. In other words an academic. That is not to say you have to be a scholar to have knowledge. I think people with practical experience often have more useful knowledge than academics. But taxonomy is really not a practical pursuit. It has to do with categories, analysis, and many fine lines. I think that's why you're not interested in taxonomy? But this whole debate really has to do with taxanomy. And i wouldn't go to a blogger to settle such a debate.
About the Lorenzi book, i think most of the collaborators supplied photos, not text. But i could be wrong about that.
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first defintion from dictionary.com for scholar

noun
1. a learned or erudite person, especially one who has profound knowledge of a particular subject.

second definition from merriam websters website

2 a :  a person who has done advanced study in a special field b :  a learned person
in other words .... u don't have to do to school to be a scholar!!!!!
A scholar is someone who went to school, has a degree. In other words an academic. That is not to say you have to be a scholar to have knowledge. I think people with practical experience often have more useful knowledge than academics. But taxonomy is really not a practical pursuit. It has to do with categories, analysis, and many fine lines. I think that's why you're not interested in taxonomy? But this whole debate really has to do with taxanomy. And i wouldn't go to a blogger to settle such a debate.
About the Lorenzi book, i think most of the collaborators supplied photos, not text. But i could be wrong about that.
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Scholar comes from the word scolere, which means having gone to school:

Webster Dictionary:
Origin of SCHOLAR

Middle English scoler, from Old English scolere & Anglo-French escoler, from Medieval Latin scholaris, from Late Latin, of a school, from Latin schola school
First Known Use: before 12th century.

Full Definition of SCHOLAR

1
:  a person who attends a school or studies under a teacher :  pupil
2
a :  a person who has done advanced study in a special field
b :  a learned person
3
:  a holder of a scholarship

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scholar


OK if you want to think Helton is a scholar go ahead. You should tell him about it. He will get a good laugh i am sure.

On more interesting note, Uruguay blog says Plinia rivularis is native to Uruguay, but this area not mentioned as origin of Plinia rivularis in Lorenzi book, he only mentions Southern Brazil, Sao Paulo, and Minas Gerais, as the origin. Apparently fruit from Uruguay is also native to Argentina. So either these are 2 different fruits or points of origin are wrong.
Oscar