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Messages - mikkel

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1
Vaniglia orange x Ichang Papeda gave me monoembryonic seedlings with clearly intermediate leaves. It might be also a orange with zygotic seeds.

2
Citrus General Discussion / Re: The History Of Citrus Fruit
« on: August 14, 2017, 03:27:09 PM »
I am convinced that it actually depicts a pine-cone and that the artist added some leaves - just 'some leaves in general' in the back to make it symmetrical with the leaves that are depicted behind the bowl on the left side.

That is what I thought. If you look precisely you see the leaves are not on the top of the cone instead a little bit beside. wouldn`t make sense if you want to depict a pineapple.

The question is how can a pineapple be still fresh when brought from south america to the mediterranean sea when you consider ships of that time. It would take a very long time. And still if it would be possible how often must ships sail from Rome to south america and carry pineapples with them that it is so famous to be depicted on a mosaic.  There was no TV, Radio or newspaper means people must have seen it by themself or very close to it at the most 3rd hand.
It must have been be a usual  trade route than.
If it would be common knowledge that south america exist there should be literature or other artefacts.
Another point is were pineapples at this time cultivated in south america and already of that size they are today?

I think it is very unlikely and it is some misinterpretation even though the pictures look very like pineapples.
I don`t say it is impossible that Romans could have been in South America but I think it is not likely pineapples were traded at that time.

To heat up the discussion have you heard about the Chachapoyas in the Andes? They are supposed to be descendents from Celts from Spain. That was just in the beginning of  the Roman Empire.

4
Citrus General Discussion / Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« on: August 11, 2017, 04:11:24 PM »
@SoCal2warm
amazing how you doubt everything others found out in more elaborated studies than just looking on pictures. I am not saying all is true what is consensus today, but where do you get all you knowledge from? Do you have sources did you research or is it just as you wrote kind of " I think..."
Please let us know.

5
Cold Hardy Citrus / Phelps Citrange
« on: July 03, 2017, 02:59:58 PM »
Anyone have seen a Phelps Citrange by himself? It is sometimes mentioned together with Sanford Citrange. Phelps Citrange produces mostly zygotic seeds as Sanford. I could not find any first hand information about it.
Thank you!

6
This link should work
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/jpgr/jpgr/2012/00000013/00000006/art00002

Small Fruit Ichang Papeda by hebamme.lena, on Flickr
Ichang Papeda by hebamme.lena, on Flickr

this is the original paper. Registration is needed. Google Translator helps a little bit to translate the pdf. (only with paste & copy after downloading)
http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTotal-YYXB199101006.htm
another one
http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-SCND198501004.htm


7
I miss some links to scientific studies mentioned in the post. I doubt Yuzu a cultivated species could be ancestral to a wild species like Ichang Papeda.

This is a true Ichang papeda and where it grows
http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/deliver/connect/jpgr/16721810/v13n6/s2.pdf?expires=1498310143&id=90938299&titleid=72010357&accname=Guest+User&checksum=EDEB890F72A52E74E98E035800246B0E

8
around winter 2015/16 I applied Paclobutrazol on many of my plants. Also on some seedlings.
Now I found a 2 year old seedling of a Ichang papeda with a small flower on top. It is only one seedling among many others and I am not sure if it is because of the treatment. Future will show if this plant is already mature or not. Maybe it only happens once like with some grapefruits.
Here is a picture sorry for the bad quality

Foto am 15.06.17 um 15.59

here you can see how Paclo works. Seedlings grow very bushy.
Foto am 15.06.17 um 16.05 by hebamme.lena, on Flickr

9
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Arctic Frost Satsuma experience
« on: June 16, 2017, 05:07:05 PM »
Is Arctic Frost available in Europe?

10
Citrus General Discussion / Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« on: June 14, 2017, 05:26:57 AM »
Yes that is what I meant. Didn`t know that monoembryotic are often nucellar too.

11
Citrus General Discussion / Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« on: June 14, 2017, 02:40:28 AM »
But also Thomasville, a young hybrid compared to them is almost stable when sown. I am aware of nucellar seedlings but also the few monoembryotic and probably zygotic ones differ only slightly from it. haven`t seen any segregation towards trifoliate leaves in seedlings so far.

Any thoughts?
I tried a lot to produce hybrids with Thomasville as a seed parent, but failed up to now.
Never seen any  zygotic seedlings from it.
But when I used  its pollen on 5* citrumelo flowers it gave two fruits  and dozen zygotic seedlings.
Thanks. A lot of my seedlings are monozygotic but probably not zygotic then. I`ll keep an eye on them.

12
Citrus General Discussion / Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« on: June 13, 2017, 11:24:56 AM »
I always wondered how all these different Citrus types could evolve just by crossing different species. On the top these are still stable types an orange is an orange you won`t get any segregation in the F2 back to the parents.
If Yuzu is a simple cross between Ichang Papeda and a mandarin how could it stay stable for such a long time without splitting in uncountable different varieties.
Okay it is a long time ago that these types evolved so maybe there was selection and these type got stable over the time by that. But also Thomasville, a young hybrid compared to them is almost stable when sown. I am aware of nucellar seedlings but also the few monoembryotic and probably zygotic ones differ only slightly from it. haven`t seen any segregation towards trifoliate leaves in seedlings so far.
E.g. if you cross different wild apple species you won`t get a new species. At least F2 would segregate back to the parents. The only other example for a stable new species / variety is Aesculus carnea a cross between the european Aesculus and an american one. Seedlings will give A. carnea again.
Any thoughts?

13
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Prison Cold Hardy Citrus Grove
« on: June 10, 2017, 02:40:32 AM »
Is there a web source where can I read more about these varieties? Thank you!

/edit/

ok I found it by myself. For everybody interested. Here is a link
http://www.growingproduce.com/citrus/georgia-citrus-seeking-to-make-its-mark/

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Taichang lemon
« on: June 09, 2017, 02:26:28 AM »
If I remember right there might be a difference between the european and the US one. I know one palnt in Germany with evergreen leaves. @eyeckr isn`t yours decidious?

15
@Heinrich Did you use the flowers for pollination of another tree? Would be interesting to find out if some of the offspring show the same early flowering.

16
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: June 04, 2017, 12:04:45 PM »
No, I received no mail.
Where did you try? In PM here or on the French forum or in my personal email?
Here. Via the email button. I try it on the french forum. Somehow it will work :)

17
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: June 04, 2017, 05:00:51 AM »
@Sylvain
Did you get my message? I can not find it again, maybe something went wrong...

18
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: June 02, 2017, 04:42:36 PM »
> I don`t want to overestimate this but I feel a bit offended. Do I get you wrong
Yes completely wrong.

Where did you ask me? On a forum or by mail?
I cannot speak freely on this forum. I have already been censored.
It's why my answers are so short and abstruse.
It is better if you contact me by mail.

Okay. Sorry for my post and thank you for your reply!

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: June 01, 2017, 03:25:15 PM »
Mikkel,

> He suggested the use of C.wintersii/M.papuana as a substitute for C.wakonai even if it is of hybrid offspring. With selfing/inbreeding one could stabilize the precocious trait and go then for hybrids with other Citrus.
What arguments Malcom S. gave to prefer C. wintersi to C. wakonai?

Simply. It is not available.
It depends for who.

Is it meant as offensive as it sounds?
I know you have it and I asked you twice for it. As I always got no answer when it comes to this matter I can not say it is available as it is not for me and for others. As you posted by yourself.
I don`t want to overestimate this but I feel a bit offended. Do I get you wrong?

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: May 31, 2017, 03:32:38 AM »
I suspect that Voss Ntri hybrids are from non controlled open pollination by some trifoliate hybrid.
All F1 poncirus derivatives that I have seen were nearly 100% trifoliates.
N1tri starts to show a damage already at -9C, but mostly at the ends of new growth. It has very sparse fructification, many flowers are without pistils. Fruits are rather small, pear shaped, resemble small lemons.

It might be a pollination by a trifoliate hybrid. I`ll keep an eye on this topic.
My N1tri are very good bloomer for me, haven`t seen sterile flowers so far. They are beside Ichang Papedas my best fruiting plants.
Fruits are small and pearshaped like yours, it should be the same clone like yours. -9°C is what I expected.


Another question, are there  differences in leave shape and other phenotypics between the hybrids on its own roots and the grafted ones?
They have smaller spines and larger leaves, especially toward the fruiting branches.
the grafted ones?
Mitchurin wrote that grafted apple seedlings and the same seedling on its own roots develope in different ways. So different that one wouldn`t suspect the same variety. Fruits are very different from each other. After him a wild rootstock change the hybrid more in the direction of the wild species.
I am wondering if this can be true.

Topgrafting sounds interesting.

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: May 31, 2017, 03:13:25 AM »
Mikkel,

> He suggested the use of C.wintersii/M.papuana as a substitute for C.wakonai even if it is of hybrid offspring. With selfing/inbreeding one could stabilize the precocious trait and go then for hybrids with other Citrus.
What arguments Malcom S. gave to prefer C. wintersi to C. wakonai?

Simply. It is not available.

22
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: May 30, 2017, 03:49:50 PM »
Another question, are there  differences in leave shape and other phenotypics between the hybrids on its own roots and the grafted ones?

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: May 30, 2017, 03:46:35 PM »
Thanks! That is quite impressive!
How do you get these mature rootstocks? Are these grafts of mature varieties on a rootstock?

I have seedlings of N1tri showing partly trifoliate leaves. i can not prove it is a true hybrid. but I was told by Bernhard Voss the breeder it is originating from the same fruit as an other ichang Papeda x Poncirus hybrid (sometimes called n2tri) a  hybrid with both mono- and trifoliate leaves. N2tri is growing on its own roots in B.Voss garden.
I read in czech forums that their N1tri is hardy down til -18°C and some plants have round fruits. Mine have pear shaped fruits and I doubt they are hardy like that.
My impression is there is maybe some confusion about it as with other varieties from B.Voss and different varieties are traded under this name. i can`t prove it. -18°C I can only imagine for N2tri.
I will sow some more seeds of it.

Here is wht B.Voss wrote about it
N15    c.ichangensis x trifoliata    N2-tri Voß   -15   Laubabwerfende, trioliate, intermediäre Hybride, sehr interessant
                                                                          decidous, trifoliate hybrid
N16    c.ichangensis x trifoliata     N1-tri Voß   -12    In der Jugendphase trifoliater Sämling, adult monofoliat, immergrün, Frucht birnenförmig, nicht sehr saftig, Zitronenaroma, Zygote Sämlinge!
                                                                                   trifoliate seedling, monofoliate when adult, evergreen, pearshaped fruit,

24
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: May 30, 2017, 07:40:34 AM »
Top grafting of seedling budwood on vigorous rootstock  is permitting to have first flowering in 3-5  years that is quite reasonable.

Do you have experience with it? I just read a book of Mitchurin he is strongly denying this method. I have no experence with this method and I don`t know if Mitchurin was right. Would be good to find out or hear some experiences.

I recently had conversation with Malcolm Smith from Bundaberg about precociousness. He told me that precociousness even from C.wakonai is strongly diluted after just a few generations by crossing with mandarins. Even with strong selection for it.
I conclude it isn`t probably a monogenetic trait and needs strong inbreeding to keep the precocious trait. 1yr Poncirus might be the same or different, but it isn`t a dominant trait at all.

He suggested the use of C.wintersii/M.papuana as a substitute for C.wakonai even if it is of hybrid offspring. With selfing/inbreeding one could stabilize the precocious trait and go then for hybrids with other Citrus. But one would need a huge number of seedlings.
As C.wintersii needs 2-3 years until its first flower it takes probaly longer time than with C.wakonai but it is in reach.

Just spinning around I would go for a hybrid of C.wintersii with 1yr Poncirus (if possible) just to see what happens.
I am looking for a seed source for C.wintersii since 2 years but couldn`t find one.  1yr Poncirus is suffering several diseases. So I can`t test this croos until now.

@SoCal2warm N1tri is a hybrid of Ichang Papeda and  Poncirus. It has almost lost all off tastes of Poncirus and Ichang Papeda so hardiest parentage and itself is quite hardy. For me it is a good F1 hybrid to do further breeding.
I have some vigourous hybrid seedlings and some weak ones of it.
But I will go for Yuzu too. These days I have the first flowers of it.

25
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: May 27, 2017, 05:56:19 AM »
a recessive trait is bad. It means 1 generation extra for selfing and selecting in each cross.
http://passel.unl.edu/Image/siteImages/BCtraitrecessivewheatLG.gif







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