Author Topic: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though  (Read 9907 times)

davidgarcia899

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Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« on: November 04, 2014, 05:21:05 PM »
http://zoom50.wordpress.com/2012/01/21/charichuelo-fruit-bumpy-lemon-garcinia-madruno/

Does anyone have a proven male and female  tree? I need some budwood
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 09:05:44 PM by davidgarcia899 »
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Re: Some good Garcinia madruno info
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2014, 12:04:16 AM »
that fruit they show looks like G acuminata.

btw..madruno isn't dioecious..it makes male flowers and androgynous flowers on the same plant...

same with G acuminata.
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davidgarcia899

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Re: Some good Garcinia madruno info
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2014, 09:28:10 AM »
Wait really Adam? Okay so this is terrible info! Lol. Thanks for telling me.

You sure about acuminata too?
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Re: Some good Garcinia madruno info
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2014, 12:29:49 PM »
The madruno most of us are familiar with are more round in shape. 

davidgarcia899

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Re: Some good Garcinia madruno info
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2014, 12:43:48 PM »
i thought madruno was charichuelo and looked like a bumpy lemon drop mangosteen
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Re: Edit: Some bad Garcinia madruno info apparently.
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2014, 11:51:59 PM »
that fruit they show looks like G acuminata.

btw..madruno isn't dioecious..it makes male flowers and androgynous flowers on the same plant...

same with G acuminata.


do you know about the Garcinia magnifolia, weather or not that is dioecious? thanks

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Re: Edit: Some bad Garcinia madruno info apparently.
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2014, 12:16:43 AM »
Almost all new world garcinia (called rheedias before) are self pollinating and not dioecious. All old world garcinias are classified as dioecious, but in reality almost all are able to either self pollinate or produce fruit without any pollination. In other words, there are very very few (you can count them on one hand) garcinias that really need cross pollination.
It's not really known what species the plant that Whitman called charichuela is. Seems very close, or variant of, madrono.
Oscar

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Re: Edit: Some bad Garcinia madruno info apparently.
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2014, 07:46:13 AM »
Seems like every few years we get into this garcinia naming debate.  Don't they like to group every garcinia/rheedia they can't or won't classify as garcinia spp.??

If you go halfway down the following page, Sadhu describes two different garcinias as being called madruno.  One is garcinia madruno and the other garcinia magnifolia...but it has smooth skin.   http://www.organicfarm.net/fruitnursery_pg3.htm

On this page, he has rheedia acuminata, which is another yellow, bumpy fruit resembling madruno.  http://www.organicfarm.net/fruitnursery.htm


davidgarcia899

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Re: Edit: Some bad Garcinia madruno info apparently.
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2014, 09:08:04 AM »
Almost all new world garcinia (called rheedias before) are self pollinating and not dioecious. All old world garcinias are classified as dioecious, but in reality almost all are able to either self pollinate or produce fruit without any pollination. In other words, there are very very few (you can count them on one hand) garcinias that really need cross pollination.
It's not really known what species the plant that Whitman called charichuela is. Seems very close, or variant of, madrono.

So Oscar, since this is the best info I've gotten. My Garcinia madruno won't need two trees to set fruit correct? How about G. xathochyumus or G. duclis?
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Re: Edit: Some bad Garcinia madruno info apparently.
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2014, 09:35:09 AM »
I've planted seeds of g acuminata, and seeds of g madruno...

And I've compared them to seedlings from whitmans tree...

He had G acuminata
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Re: Edit: Some bad Garcinia madruno info apparently.
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2014, 09:42:29 AM »
Almost all new world garcinia (called rheedias before) are self pollinating and not dioecious. All old world garcinias are classified as dioecious, but in reality almost all are able to either self pollinate or produce fruit without any pollination. In other words, there are very very few (you can count them on one hand) garcinias that really need cross pollination.
It's not really known what species the plant that Whitman called charichuela is. Seems very close, or variant of, madrono.

So Oscar, since this is the best info I've gotten. My Garcinia madruno won't need two trees to set fruit correct? How about G. xathochyumus or G. duclis?

ditto for G. Hombriana (seashore mangosteen).  Will only 1 tree fruit?
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Re: Edit: Some bad Garcinia madruno info apparently.
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2014, 11:28:28 AM »
Almost all new world garcinia (called rheedias before) are self pollinating and not dioecious. All old world garcinias are classified as dioecious, but in reality almost all are able to either self pollinate or produce fruit without any pollination. In other words, there are very very few (you can count them on one hand) garcinias that really need cross pollination.
It's not really known what species the plant that Whitman called charichuela is. Seems very close, or variant of, madrono.

Do tell, Oscar.  I'd like to know which ones are included in that "handful"

Thanks!
~Jeff

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Re: Edit: Some bad Garcinia madruno info apparently.
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2014, 04:25:35 PM »
Almost all new world garcinia (called rheedias before) are self pollinating and not dioecious. All old world garcinias are classified as dioecious, but in reality almost all are able to either self pollinate or produce fruit without any pollination. In other words, there are very very few (you can count them on one hand) garcinias that really need cross pollination.
It's not really known what species the plant that Whitman called charichuela is. Seems very close, or variant of, madrono.

So Oscar, since this is the best info I've gotten. My Garcinia madruno won't need two trees to set fruit correct? How about G. xathochyumus or G. duclis?

No, none of the species named in this thread need cross pollination to fruit. That includes hombroniana.
Oscar

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Re: Edit: Some bad Garcinia madruno info apparently.
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2014, 06:05:28 PM »
Hey the title to this thread is misleading!

I keep getting good info here!  :D

I had been recently confused by misleading information about G. hombroniana...I'm glad to hear from Oscar u only need one...that's what I've always thought.
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Re: Edit: Some bad Garcinia madruno info apparently.
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2014, 06:15:22 PM »
Almost all new world garcinia (called rheedias before) are self pollinating and not dioecious. All old world garcinias are classified as dioecious, but in reality almost all are able to either self pollinate or produce fruit without any pollination. In other words, there are very very few (you can count them on one hand) garcinias that really need cross pollination.
It's not really known what species the plant that Whitman called charichuela is. Seems very close, or variant of, madrono.

So Oscar, since this is the best info I've gotten. My Garcinia madruno won't need two trees to set fruit correct? How about G. xathochyumus or G. duclis?

Xanthochymus is self-fruitful.
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Re: Edit: Some bad Garcinia madruno info apparently.
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2014, 06:44:28 PM »
Almost all new world garcinia (called rheedias before) are self pollinating and not dioecious. All old world garcinias are classified as dioecious, but in reality almost all are able to either self pollinate or produce fruit without any pollination. In other words, there are very very few (you can count them on one hand) garcinias that really need cross pollination.
It's not really known what species the plant that Whitman called charichuela is. Seems very close, or variant of, madrono.

Do tell, Oscar.  I'd like to know which ones are included in that "handful"

Thanks!

Of the ones that i can recall:
old world garcinias: cherapu (G. prainiana). Also needs hand pollination, at least outside its native range.
new world garcinias (before called rheedias): Jim West claims he has one that is dioecious (needing cross pollination). I forget if it is macrophylla or magnifolia, as i always get those 2 mixed up?
Anyways, needing more than one plant in garcinias for fruiting is very rare exception.
Oscar

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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2014, 09:11:40 PM »
Ugh this is getting confusing!

So let me see if I am getting this right Oscar. Most Garcinas that are labeled Dioecious are Dioecious but will still set fruit without pollination?

Are you sure about that? That sounds wrong lol. The seeds are then infertile right?
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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2014, 10:16:16 PM »
I think u confused because some garcinias make male and androgynous flowers on the same plant, and some garcinias (like mangosteen) are apomictic, and have female flowers that just set fruit without being pollinated...read below what I copied and pasted concerning mangosteen flowers...(it may only be partially correct, but I know the trees are definitely apomictic)
http://www.nari.org.pg/sites/default/files/publications/toktoks/keravat/KER028E_Mangosteen.pdf

The trees are dioecious meaning that the male and female flowers appear on separate plants but for mangosteen male trees are non existent and female trees produce apomictic seeds i.e. produce seed without pollination when grown without male trees.
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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2014, 11:14:32 PM »

So let me see if I am getting this right Oscar. Most Garcinas that are labeled Dioecious are Dioecious but will still set fruit without pollination?

Yes, that is correct. 

Are you sure about that? That sounds wrong lol.

It's in the literature. Look at the chapter on garcinias in the Prosea book.

The seeds are then infertile right?

No, they are apomictic. Just like mangosteen seeds, not really seeds, but part of the mother plant. So the plant is able to reproduce itself asexually. So all the plants will be clones.
Oscar

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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2014, 07:54:24 AM »
I have seen isolated xanthochymus,dulcis,gutta gummi, forbesii and other Asians produce fruit on their own when isolated.G.prainiana and Russells sweet need male trees and don't seem to have apomyctic seeds and fruit don't develop without trees of both sexes being present.
I have also heard that at least one American species either needs to outcross or sexes are separate.

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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2014, 05:50:56 PM »
I have seen isolated xanthochymus,dulcis,gutta gummi, forbesii and other Asians produce fruit on their own when isolated.G.prainiana and Russells sweet need male trees and don't seem to have apomyctic seeds and fruit don't develop without trees of both sexes being present.
I have also heard that at least one American species either needs to outcross or sexes are separate.

Another exception for the garcinias that also needs 2 plants for cross pollination is the imbe (G. livingstoneii). Although once in a great while they can have some hermaphrodite flowers and there will be some self pollination. There was a thread about this started by Adam i believe some time ago.
Oscar

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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2014, 05:47:58 PM »
I know that Garcinia mangostana is apomitic, I didn't know other garcinia could act like that.

What if the tree flowers only male? Will it still apomitically produce fruit and seed?
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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2014, 06:27:53 PM »
I know that Garcinia mangostana is apomitic, I didn't know other garcinia could act like that.

What if the tree flowers only male? Will it still apomitically produce fruit and seed?

Only female flowers can produce fruit because only they have an ovary that can enlarge to become a fruit. Pollen alone ain't gonna do it.
Apparently xanthochymus is stranger than mangosteen because it can either produce sexually, with both male and female flowers present, or, in absence of males, asexually (apomictic).
Oscar

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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2014, 08:01:09 PM »
So oscar, isn't there still the possibly that I would have a male tree and get no fruit?
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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2014, 09:03:58 PM »
So oscar, isn't there still the possibly that I would have a male tree and get no fruit?

Are you asking about madrono now? All the rheedia species, except maybe one, have both female and hermie flowers on same tree. So they always set fruits.
Oscar

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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2014, 09:06:29 PM »
Oh okay, well yes I was asking about madruno, but also garcinia broadly
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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2014, 09:10:43 PM »
Like i said before, with garcinias i would only worry about having only one cherapu (G. prainiana) or one imbe (G. livingstoneii). I can't think of any other that isn't going to set fruit by itself. With the rheedias they are also 99% self pollinating. These are all slow growing species, but once they get to adult stage they really want to set fruits!
Oscar

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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2014, 09:19:16 PM »
Okay oscar then 1 madruno, 1 macrophylla and 1 garderiana are going in the grown. I hope I get fruit lol
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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2014, 11:56:53 PM »
Okay oscar then 1 madruno, 1 macrophylla and 1 garderiana are going in the grown. I hope I get fruit lol

Just looked it up. The one rheedia that Jim West claims is dioecious is magnifolia, not macrophylla. So you should be fine with the 3 that you mention.
Oscar

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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2014, 12:35:01 AM »
Thanks oscar! This has been help full
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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2018, 06:56:27 PM »
So I have been searching through the archives on the details of Garcinia pollination, and the information in this thread and others had not really clicked with me.  For example, the notion that you could have a dioecious species - by the very definition, male and female flowers on separate plants - and not have to worry about having multiple plants.  After all, even if the females would be facultative agamosperms and produced apomictic seeds, what if you got a male plant?  A male plant won't produce any fruit.

After digging through some papers this evening, I think I understand what's going on - but correct me if I'm wrong.  The part that clued me in was in a paper on G. hombroniana:

Quote
Species with sporophytic agamospermy such as Garcinia commonly also undertake regular sexual reproduction (Richards, 1986, 1990). For these, it is to be expected that a fertile diploid status will prevail, as it does in G. hombroniana. The high interspecific frequency, and the lower intraspecific density of plants in tropical habitats may select for agamospermous reproduction as a consequence of poor pollination, particularly when, as in Garcinia, dioecy has also arisen, perhaps in response to heavy female reproductive loads. The present work suggests that pollination is inefficient in G. hombroniana even under optimal conditions, and more than half the seeds set will carry asexual proembryos. Relatively few males will result, and this will exacerbate problems of pollen travel.

In short...

 * There are separate male and female plants in most (but not all) Garcinia species (but there's a lot of variants to this pattern)
 * The males can't fruit, only produce pollen.  The females can reproduce sexually or asexually (cloning)
 * Since the clones are exact copies of the parent (female) plant, they're also female.  But if there's male pollen in the area, then flowers can be sexually fertilized, and roughly half of those seeds will be males.
 * Since sexual reproduction is preferred, and designed to be efficient, so long as there's at least *some* males in the area, there will always be a new generation of males produced.  However, if males are completely eliminated, the species can live on as cloning females only.
 * Some species already exist as such (e.g. G. mangostana)
 * Any agamospermic Garcinia species sufficiently removed from the wild via cultivation is likely to be a clonal female line.  Aka, if someone cultivates garcinias, and they only grow one tree or they cut down non-producing males, they will only pass on clonal females to other people who will in turn only pass on females to others.  So long as there are no males from the native range around, only females will be produced, and thus all trees will yield fruit.

In short, the question one should be asking about a species is not so much "is it dioecious?", but rather "Is it agamospermic?"  Most are dioecious, but also agamospermic.  The few that are dioecious but not agamospermic, however, will always require both male and female plants.  And for the rest, if you get species from the wild or otherwise grown near a male, there's a chance you might get a male, which will never bear fruit.

(How hermaphrodites fit into this picture isn't quite clear)

I also ran into some interesting information on the difficulty in distinguishing males from females at times because of "cryptic dioecy".  For example, G. brasiliensis male flowers have nonfunctional pistils, while its female flowers have nonfunctional stamens, and both produce nectar.  It was initially thought to be a sort of "self mimicry" to make sure that bees visited both sexes rather than just the ones that gave their preferred food sources, but bees apparently seem indifferent to the flower appearances when you alter them, so it's a bit of a mystery.

Anyway, this is what I came to when reading up this evening.  Is my take on the subject correct?  If not, please correct me!  :)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 08:02:03 AM by KarenRei »
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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2018, 01:38:20 AM »
What about what the cannabis growers refer to as "going hemmy) or is going hermaphrodite more likely with an annual than with a tree? I had thought that certain female Garcinias were able to produce some male flowers. If I recall Im sure Adam from flying Fox fruit's G.livingstonei had some male flowers on a female plant. SO is it not possible that in dioceous Garcinia sex can be a bit of a spectrum?
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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2018, 03:45:16 AM »
The papers I ran into showed that there can be a spectrum, but it varies from species to species.  I haven't read any papers specifically about imbe.  In a paper on wild populations of G. indica, 37% were male, 8% hermaphrodite (yielding only small fruits with underdeveloped seeds), and 55% were female.  I don't recall them digging into what caused some to become hermaphrodites. Mind you, growers report that both male and female are required to fruit G. indica, so it's one of the exceptions to the rule.

I know nothing about cannabis, sorry!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 12:25:59 PM by KarenRei »
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Mango Stein

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Re: Edit Edit: Bad Garcinia madruno info, Other Good Info Though
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2020, 08:18:06 AM »
I just wanted to add some information about nomenclature and taxonomy. In short, Garcinia madruno has a tubercular or spiky pericarp (rind, peel). If you have fruit that is just mildly bumpy or smooth, I would argue it is misidentified or a hybrid. The common name is charichuelo, which is an indigenous name. Some Colombian botanists in a publication used the common name charichuelo rugoso, to differentiate from G. macrophylla which they call charichuelo liso (smooth), but I don't see this as merited. The reason being, is that there are already unique indigenous names for G. macrophylla, e.g. pungara in Ecuador and ibacuru in Brazil.

So where does the name "madruno" or "madroño" come from? The Spanish brought it, because the fruit of G. madruno resembled the fruit Arbutus unedo, a species called Irish strawberry tree by English-speakers, or, el madroño by Spanish-speakers. It's a pretty antiquated borrowing in my opinion, though while we are stuck with the Latin binomial I see no reason to keep using it in common names. That becomes apparent when you consider how the name has mutated and been applied to other Garcinia/Rheedia that have completely smooth skin. Garcinia magnifolia is a good example, which has been called "large leaf madrono" or "Amazon madrono." It is not even from the Amazon, so discard that name. It's indigenous name (among the Embera people of Colombia and Panama) is bebasajo.

Further reading: http://www.botanicus.org/page/1458151




« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 08:50:42 AM by Mango Stein »
Eugenia luschnathiana = CURUIRI.    Talisia esculenta = PITOMBA
I do not recommend people deal with Fruit Lovers, Prisca Mariya or Fernando Malpartida

 

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