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Author Topic: new greenhouse planning  (Read 6263 times)

Millet

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2017, 06:45:13 PM »
I see you use the 100-ft. RootMaker extended rolls to make your pots.

Mark in Texas

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #101 on: September 20, 2017, 09:59:52 AM »
Mark what is the height of your greenhouse?

18' peak, 10' columns.

Yes Millet, the permanently installed trees are in RootBuilder - avocados, mangos, citrus.  Land is a hard calcareous clay loam which I dusted with sulfur and slightly fractured with fork before putting down the pot system.

Newly grafted cocktail mango, second flush of leaves, 4 Zill varieties is in the foreground, Reed in the back, right pot will get an El Bumpo cherimoya, pot on the left is my Frankencado - Sir Prize, Holiday, Pinkerton and Ardith.


« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 10:01:38 AM by Mark in Texas »

brian

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2017, 10:55:13 AM »
Mark, what soil do you use in the containers?  Do you ever change it or is it permanent? 

Mark in Texas

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #103 on: September 21, 2017, 10:02:58 AM »
Mark, what soil do you use in the containers?  Do you ever change it or is it permanent?

Use whatever I stockpile....and hell no, aint about to change it!   ;D

About 50/50 organics/inorganics - either or, neither or.....peat moss, pinebark, compost, bulk pile of builder's sand, coarse vermiculite.  Handful blood meal, topped off with a slow release encapsulate food 18-4-9 with micros.  Dump all this stuff on a carport floor and mix with my tractors bucket.

I mulch the pots with a thick layer of their own leaves and pine needles.  A thick mulch is a must for avocados.



Susanne42

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #104 on: September 21, 2017, 10:21:57 AM »
Oh my goodness do they look yummy.

brian

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #105 on: September 21, 2017, 10:51:38 AM »
Mark, do you know roughly how much sand you are using?   I know if I don't change my container soil regularly it becomes thick as the mulch breaks down.  However, if moving the containers is no longer necessary I was thinking of using a gritty mix that provides drainage that won't break down over time.   

My other concern is my hard water.   I expect I'll need to collect rain water or get a reverse osmosis system to avoid calcium accumulation.  A RO system would let me use misters which would help with cooling in summer (with hard water the jets would clog quickly) but I'm not sure how much it would cost to operate. 

Current state:

Susanne42

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #106 on: September 21, 2017, 02:48:37 PM »
Brian will you only grow citrus in there? Any idea how many trees you can fit in there?

brian

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #107 on: September 21, 2017, 03:42:04 PM »
I will likely grow some other tropical fruits also.   I'm not really sure how many trees I will have because it depends how large they grow.   I am thinking of having maybe a dozen larger trees and some smaller containerized ones around the edges or hanging from the ceiling.  Right now I have about forty containerized fruit trees which won't all fit as they grow.   I am planning to pick my favorite of each fresh-eating type and get rid of the rest, and keep small lemon, lime, etc. for cooking.   I have so many trees because most of the fruit I can't obtain any other way, so I have no way to try it than growing it myself.   A lot of varieties are clearly inferior to others, so not much reason to keep both.   

forumfool

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #108 on: September 23, 2017, 09:26:14 AM »
Once threat of frost has past the roof is a liability as you mention by trying to keep it cool. What not try double poly for roof and roll it up in summer?

Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj0bTU5Fs2o

Mark in Texas

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #109 on: September 23, 2017, 10:18:31 AM »
Mark, do you know roughly how much sand you are using?

Too much cause moving it from tractor's bucket to inside the greenhouse gets old real quick!  If I had to guess it's about 30% sand and 30% coarse vermiculite or perlite, the rest organics.  Even after 5 years the big pots drain really well.

I started off using well water which is very hard, TDS over 800 ppm, bicarbs of Mg and Ca. Neutral pH though.  I now collect rainwater and use a cheap pump.  Trees love it. 

Speaking of trees, I'm VERY careful about my real estate, actually there's a bunch of wasted space but knowing that avocado trees grow big I give them plenty of room.  I have 4 avocado trees, 3 citrus, 3 mango and a bunch of pineapples and misc. on two perimeter benches.  If you like avocados a Reed is a must have.  I have the best of the best some as individual trees, some as a cocktail tree - Reed, Oro Negro, Sir Prize, Holiday, Pinkerton, Ardith, Gwen.

Waldo (my wife is in that Reed tree somewhere).


Also, a VERY important consideration - you must provide for easy access for pollinators in the spring.  I have hundreds of different species of bees, wasps, moths, butterflies and flies pollinators every spring.  They get confused by any covering that restricts UV....can't find their way out.

BTW, your house is gorgeous.  Mine always looks like a train wreck, leaves all over the ground, but it works!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 10:20:32 AM by Mark in Texas »

Millet

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #110 on: September 23, 2017, 11:19:51 AM »
Of course for citrus trees you don't need pollinators.  To cool my greenhouse during the summer months I use what is call a wet wall.  It works great in Colorado, a state with low humidity.  Keeps my greenhouse around 80-F even on the hottest day.  Cooling a greenhouse during the summer is much more difficult then heating the greenhouse in the winter.

http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/16600/greenhouse-cooling?gclid=CjwKCAjwjJjOBRBVEiwAfvnvBMB7KhBK29SavmphTviSq-7mFmHsUIhUiRgnern3Cq_YFkAAthN2PxoC5XUQAvD_BwE
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 11:23:48 AM by Millet »

Mark in Texas

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #111 on: September 23, 2017, 05:22:23 PM »
Of course for citrus trees you don't need pollinators.

You only grow citrus?

Last of the Lemon Zest mangos.   :-[ Wife made some awesome salsa out of this bad boy yesterday.  Served with tortilla chips, topped with Reed cado slices and it was a taste bud bomb!





3 days of key limes yielded almost a quart!  Hands smelled of oil for hours and finger tips turned yellow.




Millet

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #112 on: September 23, 2017, 05:40:40 PM »
Mark, I pretty much only grow citrus.  Other then that, I have one fully grown pomegranate tree, about 50+- pineapples and a  variety of tomatoes especially bred for greenhouse culture called Trust..
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 05:43:15 PM by Millet »

Mark in Texas

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #113 on: September 24, 2017, 09:42:30 AM »
Mark, I pretty much only grow citrus.  Other then that, I have one fully grown pomegranate tree, about 50+- pineapples and a  variety of tomatoes especially bred for greenhouse culture called Trust..

Sounds good. I too got "greenhouse tomatoes" from Johnny's Seeds, one was Trust.  Found out regular hybrids do better like the BHN series or some oldies like Sunmaster which has the cold gene and sets in heat.  Incredible RICH taste.  Also found out I don't need to bother with caging.  My maters last year was from a volunteer that popped up near a mango pot, covered an area about 12' X 12', had the best maters from September until June of this year!

What pomegranate?  I have some Aggie research info on poms I can C/P to you.  They've studied them to death including public taste trials. 

Tom

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #114 on: September 24, 2017, 10:49:36 AM »
50 pineapples ! That's like the holy grail to me. How do your pineapples compare to fresh pineapple in Hawaii ? I got to go to Hawaii about 20 years ago and one of my best memories is how sweet the fresh pineapple tasted while we were there. I sent some to my closest friends by airmail, maybe over night (?). One of my friends is still talking about it. Unbelievable how much better fresh is ! I'm guessing your pineapple are better than anything you can buy in the grocery store at any time of year ? That's awesome Millet !!! Could you paste a link here if you have written about your experiences growing pineapples in your green house. Like do you grow them in your Rootmaker pots, how large, how long etc. ? Tom
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 10:54:21 AM by Tom »

Millet

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #115 on: September 24, 2017, 01:20:18 PM »
Tom I grow them in either 3 or 5 gallon RootMaker containers.  It really doesn't t seem to make much difference which size container I use.  I grow new plants from slips that grow from the sides of mature pineapple plants.  After breaking the slip from the mother plant, let it set on top of the bench for 3 or 5 days to develop some callas,  then stick it in the growing medium, where it will start to root.  In a year or so when the plant reaches approximately 3 feet wide it will develop a pineapple.  I let them remain on the plant until they turn yellow to insure a high sugar content.  The fruit sold in the supermarket are normally sold while still green.

Mark in Texas

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #116 on: September 24, 2017, 06:10:11 PM »
Pineapples - here's a few of the comments made on my Facebook timeline to a friend on the subject today:

Tell ya what's crazy, for some strange reason all pineapples have grown a lot during the last month with one even pushing a flower. I just ordered some Dyna Gro Foliage Pro which is what I use to feed them in the cup. Might work great on pitaya too. Complete food, like 16 elements. Best food for foliar sprays too.

Got two White Jade, will save you a pup if I get a few. They've also come out of their runt stage and taken off. Also just got White Sugarloaf from Wellsprings Gardens. The store bought "twistees" are awesome if the plant is grown well. My last one was a bit stringy but it also came off a mediocre plant. I now label where my "twistees" come from - Hawaii, Costa Rica, etc. A good pineapple ranks up there with a good mango. Twistee:




That is one I harvested grown from a Kona store bought. Yes, you eat the fruit and then plant the crown.  Sugary sweet and rich if you let it go to a gold condition. The drill - 1. Twist (do not cut) the top off. 2. Let set overnight to callous up. 3. Starting at the bottom remove the lower 6 rows of leaves. The nodes showing are the roots. 4. Pot up in a 3 gal. pot of well drained soil, stake. 5. Fertilize via the cup with 1/2 tsp. of Dyna-Gro Foliage Pro often when active. Also, DO NOT water in the winter if they're in cold conditions like my greenhouse which gets down to 34F. It will induce root rot. Been there, done that. Watering indoors during winter near a sunny S. window is fine.



Mark

Mark in Texas

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #117 on: September 24, 2017, 06:16:26 PM »
Millet, I harvested the fruit of one plant recently, cut off the woody mother plant by sawing thru this 2" thick stem, left the pup alone and man is it going gang busters with dark green healthy foliage.  Needless to say it's benefiting from the established root system which you know has one helluva root system after 18 mos. in a pot.

I also scratch into the top 1" of soil a 18-4-9, 12 mo. encapsulated food with micros.


« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 06:18:41 PM by Mark in Texas »

brian

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #118 on: September 24, 2017, 11:00:20 PM »
Mark, thanks for sharing details on your greenhouse.  You and Millet provide good examples of what can be successful.  I am thinking I will either plant directly into the dirt, or into bottomless root makers with a gritty mix like you describe.  Not sure yet, maybe some of both.

For cooling I am hoping that shade cloth and some kind of evaporative cooling will work.  I remember Millet had posted about his wetwall system and it was quite large.  I'm not sure how much I would need to be effective.  I'm looking at fogged systems also.  According to this chart: https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/annual-average-humidity-by-state.php my area is around 54% afternoon humidity while Millet would see 35% in Colorado.  This means evaporative cooling will be less effective for me, but hopefully still worthwhile.

In any case I am keeping my trees in containers until I am confident that I can maintain proper temperatures.  In an emergency I can still haul them out.

For non-citrus, pollination is a concern.  However for citrus I've read that allowing free pollination can make for seedy fruit.  I need to have a plan for what I'll be growing to either let insects in or focus on self fertile fruit or artificial pollination.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 11:25:05 PM by brian »

Mark in Texas

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #119 on: September 25, 2017, 10:25:16 AM »
For cooling I am hoping that shade cloth and some kind of evaporative cooling will work.  I remember Millet had posted about his wetwall system and it was quite large.  I'm not sure how much I would need to be effective.  I'm looking at fogged systems also.  According to this chart: https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/annual-average-humidity-by-state.php my area is around 54% afternoon humidity while Millet would see 35% in Colorado.  This means evaporative cooling will be less effective for me, but hopefully still worthwhile.


I'm about to yank my Bonaire coolers out.  Getting real tired of the nasty pads, insufficient cooling, valves that stick.  Have been meaning to put in a high pressure fog system with rings around the fan outlets and perhaps some hanging from the rafters.  Here's a few links for you.
http://www.shop.truefog.com/product.sc;jsessionid=D787B4EDEE92508344D5A3E4C4B56793.p3plqscsfapp002?productId=63&categoryId=3
https://www.advancedmistingsystems.com/misting-pumps/
http://www.rapidcoolusa.com/installation.html

My reservations has been my hard water, so, either I put in a very large collection tank for rainwater or water softener and then R/O system.

Note, metal gets hot as hell.  I should have painted the columns and purlins white before covering, did so after the fact.  I even blocked the sun by spraying the polycarb close to the metal.



I have 100's of pollinators, mainly bees, on the citrus.  Does not make the fruit anymore seedy.

They come and go thru the large vents.



BTW, what's the orientation of the long wall?

brian

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #120 on: September 25, 2017, 11:08:25 AM »
Thanks for the links!

I have very hard water also, and am thinking same thing.... rainwater or RO system.

I oriented my greenhouse to align with my house and driveway for appearance reasons.  Here's a diagram:

Millet

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #121 on: September 25, 2017, 05:56:40 PM »
A north/south orientation is the best for a greenhouse. Your is a little slanted, but should be just fine.

forumfool

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #122 on: September 26, 2017, 08:13:33 AM »
A north/south orientation is the best for a greenhouse. Your is a little slanted, but should be just fine.

Most recommendations I see are for east/west to have the longest amount of glazing facing south. This would be an advantage in the winter allowing maximum light but a disadvantage in the summer if you have trouble with a greenhouse overheating. Is this why you recommend north/south?

Mark in Texas

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #123 on: September 26, 2017, 09:34:57 AM »
A north/south orientation is the best for a greenhouse. Your is a little slanted, but should be just fine.

Ditto.  Oriented the rows of the vineyard also to run north/south.

Millet

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Re: new greenhouse planning
« Reply #124 on: September 26, 2017, 12:18:03 PM »
In east west orientated greenhouses the sun pulls the plants towards the south, because only the south side of the plants receive sun throughout the fall, winter and some of the spring.

 

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