Author Topic: where did my vinegar go???  (Read 6844 times)

Daintree

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where did my vinegar go???
« on: December 09, 2015, 08:48:15 AM »
I have a 150 gallon pond in my greenhouse that I heat (aquarium heater) and use as a watering source for my tropicals.  I have a fountain pump in it, but no filter.  No fish or anything in it either.
I am trying out a hydroponics kit I just got, and it says the water pH should be way lower than what I have (my pH 7.6 and it says to use 5.5 to 6.5).
So… I added white vinegar to the water.  Day before yesterday, I kept adding and testing, adding and testing, and it took 3 cups of white vinegar (cooking strength, NOT horticultural vinegar) to get the pH to 6.8.
I thought well, that is good enough.
But I went out just now to get everything going, and my pond pH is back up to 7.6!
What the heck?  Where did my vinegar go???

simon_grow

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2015, 08:56:58 AM »
Vinegar has very little buffering capacity. Go to the hydro store and get some pH down. Good luck,

Simon

bsbullie

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2015, 11:19:46 AM »
Yup, got to get stuff from hydro supply store.
- Rob

TropicalFruitHunters

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2015, 04:49:03 PM »
Thanks Simon and Rob...I did not know this.  Thanks

zands

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2015, 05:42:57 PM »
Won't sulfuric acid from home depot etc do the job?

Daintree

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2015, 09:54:13 PM »
Hmmm… I will give it a try.  The only hydroponics store in town has had a problem with the "plants" that it caters to, but I will run over tomorrow and see if they are still open.

Thanks!
Carolyn

bsbullie

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2015, 10:41:38 PM »
Hmmm… I will give it a try.  The only hydroponics store in town has had a problem with the "plants" that it caters to, but I will run over tomorrow and see if they are still open.

Thanks!
Carolyn

Basically all hydro stores have that problem.   Should be no worries for you so long as you are not in that group.  The other option is to mail order the item (s).
- Rob

Daintree

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2015, 10:31:00 PM »
Yay! The hydroponics place has new owners and location! Got my pH Down. Going to get it set up on Saturday!

BahamaDan

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2015, 10:28:20 AM »
Yes zands sulfuric acid will work (it is commonly used as an acidifier in blueberry fertigation for commercial growers in alkaline areas) as will phosphuric and nitric acid. Of course with the latter two one may want to account somewhat for the P and N nutrional value of the acids when fertilizing. All three are fairly strong acids so should be handled with care.

Mark in Texas

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2015, 03:18:34 PM »
Yup, got to get stuff from hydro supply store.

Phosphoric acid (re labeled as "ph Down") is expensive, a rip as are all hydro stores and with their rocket fuels and all the other crap they hawk.

Get 5 gallons of sulfuric acid from your local auto parts store.  (Yes, it's very pure).  Mix one cup INTO a gallon of water.  Experiment with your additions until you get the right pH per a calibrated pH meter.

Vinegar and citric are short lived.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 03:20:17 PM by Mark in Texas »

zands

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2015, 06:43:39 PM »
Yup, got to get stuff from hydro supply store.

Phosphoric acid (re labeled as "ph Down") is expensive, a rip as are all hydro stores and with their rocket fuels and all the other crap they hawk.

Get 5 gallons of sulfuric acid from your local auto parts store.  (Yes, it's very pure).  Mix one cup INTO a gallon of water.  Experiment with your additions until you get the right pH per a calibrated pH meter.

Vinegar and citric are short lived.


You add the acid to the volume of water ________  do not add water to sulfuric acid.  It will heat up and splat all over the place including at you

________
________

Question: Do You Add Sulfuric Acid to Water or Water to Sulfuric Acid?

When you mix concentrated sulfuric acid and water, you pour the acid into a larger volume of water. Mixing the chemicals the other way can present a lab safety hazard.

Answer: Whether you add acid to the water or water to the acid is one of those things I know it's important to remember, but always have to puzzle out. Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) reacts very vigorously with water, in a highly exothermic reaction.

If you add water to concentrated sulfuric acid, it can boil and spit and you may get a nasty acid burn. If you spill some sulfuric acid on your skin, you want to wash it off with copious amounts of running cold water as soon as possible. Water is less dense than sulfuric acid, so if you pour water on the acid, the reaction occurs on top of the liquid. If you add the acid to the water, it sinks and any wild and crazy reactions have to get through the water or beaker to get to you. How do you remember this? Here are some mnemonics:

Zambezi

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2015, 07:16:58 PM »
Please do research before using Sulfuric Acid. It is a very strong acid, and potentially dangerous, as you can get severe burns to skin and eyes...it would be a good idea to use protective wear, like goggles and gloves, before handling.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 10:51:22 PM by GreenThumb »

bsbullie

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2015, 03:21:56 AM »
While sulfuric acid can work to lower ph, it is not recommended for hydroponics for multiple reasons.   Phosphoric acid or a Phosphoric acid based product are the recommended product.
- Rob

druss

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2015, 03:37:57 AM »
A couple of nurseries here use metered sulphuric acid injection in their water sprinkler systems due to the alkalinity.

Mark in Texas

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2015, 08:35:54 AM »
Yup, got to get stuff from hydro supply store.

Phosphoric acid (re labeled as "ph Down") is expensive, a rip as are all hydro stores and with their rocket fuels and all the other crap they hawk.

Get 5 gallons of sulfuric acid from your local auto parts store.  (Yes, it's very pure).  Mix one cup INTO a gallon of water.  Experiment with your additions until you get the right pH per a calibrated pH meter.

You add the acid to the volume of water ________  do not add water to sulfuric acid.  It will heat up and splat all over the place including at you

________

Acid INTO the water, like I said Zands.  8) 

Mark in Texas

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2015, 08:36:59 AM »
While sulfuric acid can work to lower ph, it is not recommended for hydroponics for multiple reasons.

And what would those "multiple reasons" be?

Being that my well water is VERY high in bicarbs of Mg and Ca, I inject it into miles of irrigation line to flush out deposits in my emitters and have adjusted my well water's pH down to 5.5 for the tropicals in my greenhouse.

$144 for 5 gallons of phosphoric acid versus $18 for 78% sulfuric acid at your local auto parts store.  That's a no brainer.  That was about what I paid for it 4 years ago.  http://www.mbferts.com/Phosphoric-Acid-85-Food-Grade-Fertilizer-Hydro-DIY-pH-Down-260.htm
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 08:44:48 AM by Mark in Texas »

Mark in Texas

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2015, 08:46:30 AM »
A couple of nurseries here use metered sulphuric acid injection in their water sprinkler systems due to the alkalinity.

Local vineyard buys sulfuric acid by the 50 gal. drums to inject into their water supply any time the system is on.

bsbullie

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2015, 10:08:53 AM »
People have strayed off topic here, what else is new.  The thread and my posts are regarding hydroponic systems, not outdoor irrigation.
- Rob

Mark in Texas

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2015, 10:45:31 AM »
People have strayed off topic here, what else is new.  The thread and my posts are regarding hydroponic systems, not outdoor irrigation.

Thanks for articulating your "multiple reasons".   :-\

This thread is about adjusting water pH and very much on topic.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 10:47:13 AM by Mark in Texas »

bsbullie

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2015, 11:56:31 AM »
The main reasons are that sulfuric acid is extremely dangerous to handle (the obvious) and constant use accumulates sulfur and can cause the sacrificing of the electrical conductivity.

When using any concentrated acid, never add water to the acid to dilute.  This can cause extreme heat heat which causes the water to boil rapidly and spray hot acid. Always slowly add acid to water while stirring and don’t let the mixture get too hot.

When testing the ph, always add the nutrients to the water before checking and adjusting the pH of your solution. The fertilizer tends to lower the pH of the water. First add the nutrients/fertilizer and mix the solution well, then check the pH. Once you determine what adjustment to the pH is needed, add the product you are using to adjust the ph. Always use small amounts at a time of what you are using to adjust the pH and check the ph after each addition. You can always add more but you dont want to have to keep adjusting back and forth. 
 
The pH of the solution can fluctuate and the plants use the nutrients so you will need to check the ph periodically and adjust as needed. Until you know how "your" particular system works and how the different plants effect the solution, I would check pH daily.
- Rob

phantomcrab

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2015, 01:26:07 PM »
Use phosphoric acid. Its second pKa is 7.198 which is close to your target pH of <6.5 - right where you want to be.
With a 150 gallon tank, you can learn how to make a phosphate buffer solution rather than paying big bucks for small quantities at a store. This will involve buying some potassium phosphate too. This should get you started - http://www.ou.edu/research/electron/bmz5364/buffers.html
Richard

bsbullie

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2015, 01:51:43 PM »
Yup, got to get stuff from hydro supply store.

Phosphoric acid (re labeled as "ph Down") is expensive, a rip as are all hydro stores and with their rocket fuels and all the other crap they hawk.

Get 5 gallons of sulfuric acid from your local auto parts store.  (Yes, it's very pure).  Mix one cup INTO a gallon of water.  Experiment with your additions until you get the right pH per a calibrated pH meter.

Vinegar and citric are short lived.

From the original post, see the bolded sentence:

"I have a 150 gallon pond in my greenhouse that I heat (aquarium heater) and use as a watering source for my tropicals.  I have a fountain pump in it, but no filter.  No fish or anything in it either.
I am trying out a hydroponics kit I just got, and it says the water pH should be way lower than what I have (my pH 7.6 and it says to use 5.5 to 6.5).
So… I added white vinegar to the water.  Day before yesterday, I kept adding and testing, adding and testing, and it took 3 cups of white vinegar (cooking strength, NOT horticultural vinegar) to get the pH to 6.8.
I thought well, that is good enough.
But I went out just now to get everything going, and my pond pH is back up to 7.6!
What the heck?  Where did my vinegar go???"

While it was buried in the post, the member was asking about a hydroponic system which as you well know, works differently from basic/outdoor irrigation.
- Rob

Mark in Texas

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2015, 08:41:13 AM »
The main reasons are that sulfuric acid is extremely dangerous to handle (the obvious) and constant use accumulates sulfur and can cause the sacrificing of the electrical conductivity.

Same can be said for phosphoric acid albeit very little ppm's in the real world of use.  Constant use will induce micro deficiencies.  Too much P is not good and is one of the most abused, over used macros on the shelves, witness Bloom foods.  A high P food is not really good under most growing circumstances but manufacturers don't care.  They will make and sell what they perceive the public wants.   IOW, the decision to buy and use a product is often determined by the skill of the salesperson not the efficacy of the product.

Handling - you're telling me 85% phosphoric acid isn't dangerous?  We're big boyz, so let's put on our big boy pants, chemical resistant gloves, goggles, and mix up one cup of acid to 1 gallon of water to use to adjust your tank's pH.  Easy peasy....  Yes, adjustments should be made after mixing in the nutrients, supplements, etc.  Good point.  But, not all foods have an acidic influence.  Like I said, it's all about trial and error.  He'll figure it out. I would not waste my time or money on small quantities of diluted phosphoric acid sold as "pH Down" sourced from brew or hydroponic stores.

I mix fertilizer into a 32 gallon garbage can and using a pump and garden hose feed my trees. Usually don't adjust as I water with rain water but if I do adjust, I mix, adjust and test to a pH of around 5.5-6.0.

Quote
When using any concentrated acid, never add water to the acid to dilute. 

Thanks, that's the 3rd time we've done the nanny thing.  :)  Having said that, I have a 5 gallon carton of 78% sulfuric acid laying on its side on my workbench so the acid flows well.  When I need some I unfold the little white rubber tube, drop it into a jug, tip the back of the box up until done.  Most times I'm wearing shorts, clogs, a T-shirt and no gloves.  Just took a picture of the box. 

A Xmas gift plug - beside that carton is one of the must valuable tools I have on the farm - a Worksharp tool and knife sharpener.  Tell Santa you want one, you won't regret it. 
 

« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 08:52:04 AM by Mark in Texas »

bsbullie

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2015, 08:49:24 AM »
Mark - you make a lot of assumptions that i can guarantee are not true.  Many on here have little to no knowledge so assuming they know what is obvious to you is a misnomer.   

Despite your comment,  sulfuric acid is more dangerous than phosphoric acid.  Again, you are ignoring that the original post and my comments are based on hydroponics.   I have direct experience with hydroponics so i know what i am talking about.

Just a bit of advice,  take it or ignore it, most people on here when they ask about thinfs is cause they have little to no knowledge and the responses should be trwated as such.  If it were me, i would rather be told something i already know as opposed to not be told something i should know.
- Rob

Mark in Texas

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Re: where did my vinegar go???
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2015, 08:54:36 AM »
Mark - you make a lot of assumptions that i can guarantee are not true.  Many on here have little to no knowledge so assuming they know what is obvious to you is a misnomer.   

Despite your comment,  sulfuric acid is more dangerous than phosphoric acid.  Again, you are ignoring that the original post and my comments are based on hydroponics.   I have direct experience with hydroponics so i know what i am talking about.

Just a bit of advice,  take it or ignore it, most people on here when they ask about thinfs is cause they have little to no knowledge and the responses should be trwated as such.  If it were me, i would rather be told something i already know as opposed to not be told something i should know.

OK Rob, I'm wrong, you're right, and it's obvious you've grown a little pot in your life.  Bid deal.  ;D