Hydrogen peroxide for seeds

[Ethan]

I've gotten in the habit of using hydrogen peroxide soaks for all of my seeds.  I originally started doing this for old seeds but even do it now for fresh seeds.  Using store bought strength H2O2 I'll soak fresh seeds for 30min or less, mostly to remove any leftover residue.  For older seeds, supposedly it reoxygenates the seed embryo, I've soaked 10 year old seeds for a few hours and had them sprout.  I purchased some dialum inidium (velvet tamarind) seeds and had one sprout, 9months of continued trying, I soaked the seeds again and the within days had two more seeds sprout.

anyone else use this in their arsonal?
-Ethan

[Mike T]

I am sure blonde seeds would have more fun.Ethan have you compared treated and untreated seeds to see if there is a difference? I have never used anything to enhance germination.

[fruitlovers]

I've gotten in the habit of using hydrogen peroxide soaks for all of my seeds.  I originally started doing this for old seeds but even do it now for fresh seeds.  Using store bought strength H2O2 I'll soak fresh seeds for 30min or less, mostly to remove any leftover residue.  For older seeds, supposedly it reoxygenates the seed embryo, I've soaked 10 year old seeds for a few hours and had them sprout.  I purchased some dialum inidium (velvet tamarind) seeds and had one sprout, 9months of continued trying, I soaked the seeds again and the within days had two more seeds sprout.

anyone else use this in their arsonal?
-Ethan

Hi Ethan, I've used hydrogen peroxide, but only as a fungicide, not for old seeds. Thanks for sharing, i'll try that out. BTW, i've heard hydrogen peroxide also works to help sprout seeds that are dormant, like the infamous ilama (Annona diversifolia), but i haven't tried that either. This would take the place of using GA3. I think it was Ed that mentioned this in another thread?

[FlyingFoxFruits]

buddy of mine does it and he has better germ rates most of time, but sometimes I had better germ rate...can't tell but some times it may be better not to soak...jmo

[Ethan]

"Ethan have you compared treated and untreated seeds to see if there is a difference?"
Not side by side Mike, I've had seeds not sprout w/normal technique and then soaked them or their siblings and had them sprout.

"i've heard hydrogen peroxide also works to help sprout seeds that are dormant, like the infamous ilama (Annona diversifolia)"
Oscar, it would be great if it worked for that, I'd rather have H2O2 around than GA3.  Know anyone w/illama seeds to test it on?

"buddy of mine does it and he has better germ rates most of time, but sometimes I had better germ rate...can't tell but some times it may be better not to soak...jmo"
Adao, I think?? for me it has to do with amount of time in the solution for new seeds?  I've noticed when I get distracted and the new seeds soak longer than I wanted then to, germination rates seem to go down and mold seems to go up.

I recently also had 5 out of 7 marula (sclerocarya birrea) seeds sprout after a soak, I've read they have low rates?

hope it helps you guys out,
-Ethan

[fruitlovers]

"Ethan have you compared treated and untreated seeds to see if there is a difference?"
Not side by side Mike, I've had seeds not sprout w/normal technique and then soaked them or their siblings and had them sprout.

"i've heard hydrogen peroxide also works to help sprout seeds that are dormant, like the infamous ilama (Annona diversifolia)"
Oscar, it would be great if it worked for that, I'd rather have H2O2 around than GA3.  Know anyone w/illama seeds to test it on?

"buddy of mine does it and he has better germ rates most of time, but sometimes I had better germ rate...can't tell but some times it may be better not to soak...jmo"
Adao, I think?? for me it has to do with amount of time in the solution for new seeds?  I've noticed when I get distracted and the new seeds soak longer than I wanted then to, germination rates seem to go down and mold seems to go up.

I recently also had 5 out of 7 marula (sclerocarya birrea) seeds sprout after a soak, I've read they have low rates?

hope it helps you guys out,
-Ethan

I'll try the hydrogen peroxide soak next time i have some ilama seeds. I forget the soak times? I think Ed  said 5 minutes in food grade hydrogen peroxide and overnight in regular hydrogen peroxide? Someone in Guatemala told me that one trick they use there to break dormancy is to leave the ilama seeds on hot metal roofing for one day. Don't know if it works, haven't tried that either! The marula seeds also have a dormancy period. Poking out the "eyes" of the seeds is supposed to help hasten germination.

[Soren]

After several discussions with Ed I decided to use peroxide; and I have done control testing with better results. My conclusion is it decreases the germination time, it does not work on ilama seeds according to Ed but on many other annonae seeds. For ilama GA3 works, but keeping the seeds dry for 5-6 months does also appear to have an effect as I did some testing with a limited number of seeds I got from Luc.
I believe Ed shared some of his experiences under another thread.

[Ethan]

Thank you gentlemen. 
I wonder why it would not work on illama but will on other annonas?

-Ethan

[fruitlovers]

Here is the previous thread about using GA3 on annonas: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=281.msg3488#msg3488
Here is a useful chart from CRFG's John Riley about starting difficult to start seeds:
http://www.crfg.org/tidbits/seedprop.html
Hi Sheehan or Patrick, if you're listening this seed germination table might be another great page to have in the library or FAQ section.

[KarenRei]

Just a warning, I did a controlled experiment with peroxide on Thuja plicata.  There were four groups - cold stratified or not * peroxide or only water.  I also did some smaller scale experiments with varying length of time in peroxide.  The results?  40% of non-peroxide seeds sprouted regardless of stratification.  0% of seeds exposed to peroxide for any length of time sprouted.

[Soren]

Just a warning, I did a controlled experiment with peroxide on Thuja plicata.  There were four groups - cold stratified or not * peroxide or only water.  I also did some smaller scale experiments with varying length of time in peroxide.  The results?  40% of non-peroxide seeds sprouted regardless of stratification.  0% of seeds exposed to peroxide for any length of time sprouted.

Which concentrations for the solution? I am using the methods described by John Riley (and used by Ed);

"This is commonly available in a 3% solution. It may be used in full strength for about 20 minute to disinfect seed and alter the seed coat. The peroxide may then be diluted in half with water and the seed soaked for up to 24 hours."

[KarenRei]

Just a warning, I did a controlled experiment with peroxide on Thuja plicata.  There were four groups - cold stratified or not * peroxide or only water.  I also did some smaller scale experiments with varying length of time in peroxide.  The results?  40% of non-peroxide seeds sprouted regardless of stratification.  0% of seeds exposed to peroxide for any length of time sprouted.

Which concentrations for the solution? I am using the methods described by John Riley (and used by Ed);

"This is commonly available in a 3% solution. It may be used in full strength for about 20 minute to disinfect seed and alter the seed coat. The peroxide may then be diluted in half with water and the seed soaked for up to 24 hours."

I did 3% and I also did a very dilute solution (I forget the percent). At least with Thuja plicata, peroxide is *not* recommended (by me).  Maybe it's safer for seeds with harder seed coats?

Hmm, this reminds me, I should germinate some more Thujas this evening.  My goal is to grow a tree which will eventually, long after I'm dead, be by far the largest in Iceland.  The Idaho-strain of Thuja plicata seems to fit the bill.  It's the only super-large tree that's very cold hardy.  There's one living in Idaho today that's 18 feet in diameter and 177 feet high, and good evidence that they used to be bigger.  Not sequoia-sized, but I don't think a sequoia would stand much of a chance here. 

[CoPlantNut]

Hmm, this reminds me, I should germinate some more Thujas this evening.  My goal is to grow a tree which will eventually, long after I'm dead, be by far the largest in Iceland.  The Idaho-strain of Thuja plicata seems to fit the bill.  It's the only super-large tree that's very cold hardy.  There's one living in Idaho today that's 18 feet in diameter and 177 feet high, and good evidence that they used to be bigger.  Not sequoia-sized, but I don't think a sequoia would stand much of a chance here.

Sequoia may not survive in Iceland, but Sequoiadendron might, and Metasequoia almost certainly would.  There is a 20-year-old, 30-foot-tall Sequoiadendron in Boulder, Colorado that has survived -25 degrees F several times, and I have a 10-year-old in-ground Metasequoia that's experienced -23 degrees F with no die-back.

   Kevin

Edit: My 2 10-year-old Thuja plicata are 50% taller than my Metasequoia right now; they certainly seem to grow faster but who knows what the ultimate size would be in a marginal climate like this?  I won't be around to see any of these trees mature, so I guess I'll never know.

[KarenRei]

Hmm, this reminds me, I should germinate some more Thujas this evening.  My goal is to grow a tree which will eventually, long after I'm dead, be by far the largest in Iceland.  The Idaho-strain of Thuja plicata seems to fit the bill.  It's the only super-large tree that's very cold hardy.  There's one living in Idaho today that's 18 feet in diameter and 177 feet high, and good evidence that they used to be bigger.  Not sequoia-sized, but I don't think a sequoia would stand much of a chance here.

Sequoia may not survive in Iceland, but Sequoiadendron might, and Metasequoia almost certainly would.  There is a 20-year-old, 30-foot-tall Sequoiadendron in Boulder, Colorado that has survived -25 degrees F several times, and I have a 10-year-old in-ground Metasequoia that's experienced -23 degrees F with no die-back.

   Kevin

Edit: My 2 10-year-old Thuja plicata are 50% taller than my Metasequoia right now; they certainly seem to grow faster but who knows what the ultimate size would be in a marginal climate like this?  I won't be around to see any of these trees mature, so I guess I'll never know.

Was actually referring to sequoiadendron when I said sequoia (argh, common names vs. scientific).  I'm very impressed that they've got a Sequoia to survive in Boulder; I've struggled to keep one alive in Indiana for my parents.  I guess the real question is, will it survive a couple thousand years in Boulder, or even a couple hundred?    Also, while we're not super-cold, we get really fierce winds, worse than Colorado.  On the upside, lightning is extremely rare here, and that's well known as a big killer in their native range.  On the other hand again, over the course of many hundreds to thousands of years, it'll be having to fight off volcanic eruptions    Much of the ground here in the Reykjanes penninsula (where the capital sits) is under a thousand years old, and even distant volcanoes can do nasty stuff because they can be so powerful here (for example, the last eruption of Laki -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki).

Metasequoia is quite hardy but not that big.  Well, it's big compared to the average tree, but it's not a true giant:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/q5240e/q5240e06.htm

The Metasequoia is a large deciduous tree which can reach 37 m in height and 2.2 m in breast diameter.

Compare that to 54m height / 5,5m for the largest Idaho T. plicata and even bigger on the coast.  The largest sequoiadendrons are over 80m high and nearly 11 meters in diameter.

I once made a spreadsheet of the world's largest trees and all the data I could find on their cultivation to decide what would be the biggest I could grow in different climate zones (a surprisingly large percent were native to California, interestingly).  Cold hardiness is a surprisingly rare trait among them; you have to go way down the list to find something as hardy as T. plicata (which is the largest species by mass after the two giant redwood species and the giant eucalyptus species of Tasmania).  Drought hardiness is the second hardest to find, with Incense Cedar being the biggest tree (69m / 3,9m) tolerant of dry conditions (although it grows very slowly in dry areas and doesn't usually reach such heights in such locations).  On the other hand, if you're in a tropical/warm subtropical climate and get reasonable to heavy annual rainfall, there's dozens of impressive giant trees you can grow. 

[CoPlantNut]

Was actually referring to sequoiadendron when I said sequoia (argh, common names vs. scientific).  I'm very impressed that they've got a Sequoia to survive in Boulder; I've struggled to keep one alive in Indiana for my parents.  I guess the real question is, will it survive a couple thousand years in Boulder, or even a couple hundred?    Also, while we're not super-cold, we get really fierce winds, worse than Colorado.  On the upside, lightning is extremely rare here, and that's well known as a big killer in their native range.  On the other hand again, over the course of many hundreds to thousands of years, it'll be having to fight off volcanic eruptions    Much of the ground here in the Reykjanes penninsula (where the capital sits) is under a thousand years old, and even distant volcanoes can do nasty stuff because they can be so powerful here (for example, the last eruption of Laki -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki).

The large Sequoiadendron in Boulder is some sort of genetic mutant which is more tolerant of cold; I've planted many seedlings and killed them all along with many other people in the area.  I'm aware of at least one attempt with 1000 seedlings, all of which died.  But the couple in Boulder that owns the giant sequoia wasn't aware they aren't hardy here and planted several seedlings they brought back with them from a trip to California.  All died but the one; it has been propagated in the last 10 years and is proving hardy in other locations nearby (though I killed the cutting I got off of it the first winter it was in the ground). 

The large tree in Boulder has survived 120mph wind gusts so far, but who knows if it will live a hundred or even a thousand years.

On the other hand, T. plicata is generally very hardy here and even seems to hold up well to extreme snow loads; it may indeed be the best candidate for growing a giant tree.

Clearly, having a volcano resurface the area isn't going to be good for any trees, but there isn't much you can do about that. 

  Kevin

[KarenRei]

Was actually referring to sequoiadendron when I said sequoia (argh, common names vs. scientific).  I'm very impressed that they've got a Sequoia to survive in Boulder; I've struggled to keep one alive in Indiana for my parents.  I guess the real question is, will it survive a couple thousand years in Boulder, or even a couple hundred?    Also, while we're not super-cold, we get really fierce winds, worse than Colorado.  On the upside, lightning is extremely rare here, and that's well known as a big killer in their native range.  On the other hand again, over the course of many hundreds to thousands of years, it'll be having to fight off volcanic eruptions    Much of the ground here in the Reykjanes penninsula (where the capital sits) is under a thousand years old, and even distant volcanoes can do nasty stuff because they can be so powerful here (for example, the last eruption of Laki -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki).

The large Sequoiadendron in Boulder is some sort of genetic mutant which is more tolerant of cold; I've planted many seedlings and killed them all along with many other people in the area.  I'm aware of at least one attempt with 1000 seedlings, all of which died.  But the couple in Boulder that owns the giant sequoia wasn't aware they aren't hardy here and planted several seedlings they brought back with them from a trip to California.  All died but the one; it has been propagated in the last 10 years and is proving hardy in other locations nearby (though I killed the cutting I got off of it the first winter it was in the ground). 

The large tree in Boulder has survived 120mph wind gusts so far, but who knows if it will live a hundred or even a thousand years.

On the other hand, T. plicata is generally very hardy here and even seems to hold up well to extreme snow loads; it may indeed be the best candidate for growing a giant tree.

Clearly, having a volcano resurface the area isn't going to be good for any trees, but there isn't much you can do about that. 

  Kevin

Very interesting - do you know if it's possible to get cuttings of that sequoia?  I'd love to get ahold of a couple.

And yeah, not much you can do about a volcano, at least as far as the lava goes.  I have no clue how well different species would do against ash or volcanic gasses (including, unusually for a volcano, here in Iceland we sometimes get tons of fluorine with the eruptions; Laki killed 80% of Iceland's sheep from skeletal fluorosis).  But if any tree could handle the lava, it'd be a sequoia.  Nearly a meter of self-extingishing fire-resistant bark on the old giants, well, hard to beat that... On the other hand, the roots are shallow.  Sequoias, being shade-tolerant, should deal well with ash cover as well.

Really, though, with proper site selection, lava won't be an issue, and even ash fall should be able to be limited.  Sulfur and fluorine tolerance are the only hard ones to account for.