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Author Topic: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?  (Read 998 times)

huertasurbanas

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Hi dear forum members.

This method would be good for many species, but I am focusing now on jaboticabas, could you help us? There are many forum members that doesnt know what kind of jaboticaba are they growing, but if we could compare leaf venation, size, shape and other details, we should identify them properly!

* How can you help? (and we maybe can help you!)

Could you take some photos of the leaves? If you could take good near photos of leaves we can identify it properly.

It would be cool to have photos of your named m. cauliflora paulista, m. jaboticaba sabará, m. coronata, other species, and photos of unidentified jaboticabas (and or eugenias too!).

Any photo of the leaves would be fine, but it would be better if you can take photos like these:



I did that just with my cell phone using android, but you can do it with a normal camera or an iphone too:

How-to:

1) take a leaf of your plant and point it directly to the sun to show their veins
2) the camera should be in "flower" or "macro" mode to focus a near object! (in android, go to Auto --> PRO, Settings, Manual Focus, select the Flower icon)
3) focus your camera or cell phone to the leaf: the leaf should be between the sun and the camera
4) be sure to focus right! take a shot (as much shots as you think till it focus right)
5) upload it here!

your photo should look a bit like this:



There you can also see the sun behind, I let it there just for explaining purposes


A good photo should look like this (although the tip is not visible, it should ideally be seen):





Here you can get some clues of myrtaceae leaf taxonomy (spanish doc):

http://www.scielo.org.ar/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1851-23722011000100004

For instance:




We can work together and find what we really have!

« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 05:15:39 PM by huertasurbanas »

Vernmented

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2017, 03:03:12 PM »
This is why I love the internet.
-Josh

Ulfr

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2017, 05:25:04 PM »
I’m in. Sounds really interesting :)

First tree:


I think Sabara? It’s whatever the common one here is.


Second tree:


This one was given to me as red (thanks you know who!). I am not sure if that means the hybrid or what over here.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 05:38:32 PM by Ulfr »

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2017, 06:07:31 PM »
I’m in. Sounds really interesting :)

First tree:


I think Sabara? It’s whatever the common one here is.



Thanks, I should point out that I am not a taxonomist, but these photos should help us to find out what species are them... it would help to have some more photos: new sprout, entire plant, and a normal (not backlit) close up of the leaves.

Some thing I can see in your leaf: it has aprox. 16 pairs of secondary veins. (this is something to look for species ID, for instance: http://www.scielo.org.ar/img/revistas/bsab/v46n1-2/a04tab3.gif)

Today I have no sun, so I used a led lamp... not ideal. This is a jaboticaba sabará caipirinha (a kind of swarf one)



My leaves  have 14 - 16 pairs of secondary veins.

This is another (supposed) sabará I have:





It is not as reticulated as yours!! I dont have any jaboticaba that looks like yours... maybe you have another thing. Or maybe there are sabara varieties that look like yours.

After watching at the leaves for a while I concluded that we have different species named as sabara, for instance mine has all those very small dots on it and yours not:

https://postimg.org/image/vtzo2tlol/

The space between the paramarginal and intramarginal veins (http://www.scielo.org.ar/img/revistas/bsab/v46n1-2/a04fig1.gif) in yours is very reticulated, often divided by 4, while mine is almost not reticulated. It would be nice to have more photos of the entire plant and new growth.

Quote
Second tree:


This one was given to me as red (thanks you know who!). I am not sure if that means the hybrid or what over here.


Yours has aprox 15 or 17 pairs of secondary veins.


This is a red hybrid: seeds from Oscar Jaitt, Hawaii:



mine has aprox 20 pairs of secondary veins. (maybe we are into the range of the species)

I think we could have the same red hibrid species. Paramarginal veins look similar too.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 05:48:24 AM by huertasurbanas »

Ulfr

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2017, 09:07:36 AM »
Very interesting, thanks for having a look at them :)

I'll get a picture of that first tree.  It is the common one sold here (sold as Myrciaria cauliflora.

Mugenia

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2017, 09:53:55 AM »
 8)

roblack

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2017, 10:29:34 AM »
this is a leaf from a jabo with dark colored fruit. Has been in ground 1.5 years, fruited once. Delicious. What is it? Thank you.

sorry for the not so great pic, can take a better one later if needed.

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 01:33:11 PM »
Very interesting, thanks for having a look at them :)

I'll get a picture of that first tree.  It is the common one sold here (sold as Myrciaria cauliflora.

Ok, thanks you. Maybe it is myrciaria cauliflora, as it is very reticulated... we will need an
"officially" m. cauliflora to compare it, or at least a taxonomy description ef leaf venation from a good source...

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 01:34:05 PM »
this is a leaf from a jabo with dark colored fruit. Has been in ground 1.5 years, fruited once. Delicious. What is it? Thank you.

sorry for the not so great pic, can take a better one later if needed.

I adjusted contrast and now we can see better...



Aprox 18 pairs of secondary veins... similar to our sabaras (m. jaboticaba); I would say it is not m. coronata, maybe sabara. A close picture of the entire tree (from above) will always help...
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 01:39:11 PM by huertasurbanas »

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 01:42:34 PM »
It will be nice to have many leaf and entire plant photos of well identified jaboticabas to compare with the non identified ones... I sent many messages to forum members, youtubers and other collectionists to do a proper database. We are working on it and I will receive soon many photos of a brazilian collector that has more than 20 rare species.

roblack

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2017, 02:32:00 PM »
it will be tough to get a topdown pic, but will see what I can do. here are some more pics:












« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 02:33:59 PM by roblack »

sytanta

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 02:34:14 PM »
It will be nice to have many leaf and entire plant photos of well identified jaboticabas to compare with the non identified ones... I sent many messages to forum members, youtubers and other collectionists to do a proper database. We are working on it and I will receive soon many photos of a brazilian collector that has more than 20 rare species.

+1

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 03:48:34 PM »
"it will be tough to get a topdown pic, but will see what I can do. here are some more pics:" leaves look like sabara but it would be nice to have closer photos, and new growth too. In that way we will know if it is sabara or another thing.

Your tree is big!

does it looks like my properly identified sabara?

this is a kind of dwarf one (var caipirinha):













huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 04:20:25 PM »
Better photos of m. jaboticaba sprouts:





OCchris1

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2017, 02:26:23 AM »
To me, roblack's tree looks like a red hybrid...but who knows without a close-up of the leaves. +1 on this leaf experiment. Chris

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2017, 06:26:54 AM »
Hi all, this thread is scratching right where I'm itching. I have purchased 2 Coronata Jaboticabas, both are seedlings from Daley's nursery and both look very different. These photos are all from the tree I bought for my folks and the leaves are about twice the size of mine and keep their fine hairs a long time (can't remember if my leaves are even hairy, will check in a few days).

So is this seedling more like the Coronata or showing hybrid variation? Any input is greatly appreciated, will post pics of mine at home soon if there is interest.











huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2017, 08:34:29 AM »
To me, roblack's tree looks like a red hybrid...but who knows without a close-up of the leaves. +1 on this leaf experiment. Chris

Thanks for your opinion, I think you could be right

This is my red hibrid:



This is roblack's



Same ammount of secondary veins pairs, leaf shape and paramarginal and intramarginal veins look the same, and the reticulation is very similar, it would be good to have a more clear and focused photo of its leaves (I cant see the very small dots (areolas) in the roblack's leaf), but I think it could be the red, yes.

"this is a leaf from a jabo with dark colored fruit. Has been in ground 1.5 years, fruited once. Delicious. What is it? Thank you."

 dark colored red?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 09:08:34 AM by huertasurbanas »

roblack

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2017, 09:33:46 AM »
another pic of large mystery jabo, tree from local landscaper/private nursery



pic of "sabara" leaf, tree from TOP
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 09:43:44 AM by roblack »

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2017, 09:57:05 AM »
another pic of large mystery jabo, tree from local landscaper/private nursery



Ok, thanks, fruits are very black or dark red?



« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 10:02:37 AM by huertasurbanas »

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2017, 10:05:35 AM »

pic of "sabara" leaf, tree from TOP


Yes, that sabara looks like sabara, thanks for adding a new picture to the database: I cant find another good pics on the net about myrciaria jaboticaba leaf venation...

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2017, 10:10:09 AM »
Thanks Canvo, you post is very interesting:

Hi all, this thread is scratching right where I'm itching. I have purchased 2 Coronata Jaboticabas, both are seedlings from Daley's nursery and both look very different. These photos are all from the tree I bought for my folks and the leaves are about twice the size of mine and keep their fine hairs a long time (can't remember if my leaves are even hairy, will check in a few days).

So is this seedling more like the Coronata or showing hybrid variation? Any input is greatly appreciated, will post pics of mine at home soon if there is interest.


Yes, please! We should have as many photos of m. coronata as we can. There is a lot of variation on this species, so having many photos will help. If you can take photos with more pixels, it would be better, 800x600 is not enought to see all details.

The leaf shape is like coronata:


Quote











But they seem to be much more reticulated than my supposed coronata:

Yours:




Mine:








I dont know if there is hybrid variation or not. How would it be a pure coronata? We need a taxonomist ID for that... or a photo of a properly identified pure coronata... if that exist.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 10:22:52 AM by huertasurbanas »

roblack

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2017, 10:34:39 AM »

[/quote]

Ok, thanks, fruits are very black or dark red?


The fruit were dark, like purple or black. Didn't look red to me. Do you think it is a hybrid?


thank you for the help and info, this thread is very interesting and useful.

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2017, 01:08:12 PM »



Ok, thanks, fruits are very black or dark red?


The fruit were dark, like purple or black. Didn't look red to me. Do you think it is a hybrid?


thank you for the help and info, this thread is very interesting and useful.
[/quote]


mmm... I dont know, we should see close photos of new sprouts; there are many jaboticaba species, I remember Adam saying 60 species or more, and maybe varieties... for instance there is a jaboticaba "marrom" with brown fruits...

Take a look at this pictures and videos

http://www.huertasurbanas.com/2017/09/25/identificando-los-jaboticabas-mas-comunes/

specially this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOeVPbVTpSQ

roblack

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2017, 01:10:35 PM »
Here are some older pics, from June of 2016. Fruited well (was planted in ground 1/2016), and has not flowered since.

Mystery Jabo flowers


Mystery Jabo fruits. They got pretty dark with ripening. I am a little color blind, so ya'll tell me.

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2017, 02:28:11 PM »
Here are some older pics, from June of 2016. Fruited well (was planted in ground 1/2016), and has not flowered since.

Mystery Jabo flowers


Mystery Jabo fruits. They got pretty dark with ripening. I am a little color blind, so ya'll tell me.


Beautiful tree and fruits, there are 2 dark red fruits there and one almost black, so maybe it is not the red hibrid? we will need another forum members to know it...

 

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