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Author Topic: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?  (Read 1498 times)

Canvo

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2017, 04:35:50 PM »
I'm having a devil of a time trying to add an image, keeps loading new page and I can't find my loaded image!

Thanks for your input huertasurbanas, soon as I can figure out how I will load a better quality pic

Canvo

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2017, 04:37:47 PM »





huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2017, 07:59:34 PM »
Amazing quality, Canvo, if this is a giant myrciaria coronata, your photos will help many members to look for it and know what they have! now we need photos of your other coronatas, please

Ulfr

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2017, 04:31:59 AM »
Here are the trees from my earlier post.

Tree 1: Old leaves look dodgy as I moved the tree about 6 months ago. This is the common one sold as Myrciaria cauliflora here.



Tree 2: The red.


huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2017, 11:26:45 PM »
Here are the trees from my earlier post.

Tree 1: Old leaves look dodgy as I moved the tree about 6 months ago. This is the common one sold as Myrciaria cauliflora here.




mmm... it looks somewhat like sabara, myrciaria jaboticaba, but it could be myrciaria cauliflora (paulista or something similar), I think I dont have that species... I am amazed but the reticulation of the leaves veins... it is a mistery to me yet... if you could take better/closer photos of its leaves and new sprouts, it would be great.


Quote
Tree 2: The red.



Yes, it should be the red, the photo is not focused but it looks like the red hibrid.

roblack

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2017, 10:35:49 AM »
Here are some older pics, from June of 2016. Fruited well (was planted in ground 1/2016), and has not flowered since.

Mystery Jabo flowers


Mystery Jabo fruits. They got pretty dark with ripening. I am a little color blind, so ya'll tell me.



Beautiful tree and fruits, there are 2 dark red fruits there and one almost black, so maybe it is not the red hibrid? we will need another forum members to know it...

Thank you. Since jabos tend to be slow growing, felt lucky to find a larger specimen. Now if I could just get it to fruit consistently.

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2017, 09:38:12 PM »
How many times per year does it fruits? that would help to id it too...

roblack

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2017, 10:07:55 PM »
it was planted in-ground 1/2016, and fruited june/july 2016. only fruited once. It has not fruited or flowered at all this year.

OCchris1

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2017, 01:36:03 AM »
Roblack, the fruits on your tree appear to be more sabara than red hybrid to me. I guess time will tell. Good luck- Chris

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2017, 07:19:36 PM »
Anybody have a jaboticaba with leaves like this?



 The plant is about 6 years old, grown from 'Sabara' seeds that I imported from Brazil.  It looks nothing like other P. jaboticaba leaves that I have seen, but i was wondering if anyone else has a specimen that looks like this

Cheers,
Richard

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2017, 10:52:18 PM »
Richard, no I dont have and never saw something like that, it is similar to sabará, maybe a dwarf version? My caipirinha is dwarf but not that much!

The leaf venation is very rare for a jaboticaba, secondary veins have a very narrow angle! and they go to the tip of the leaf, not to the intramarginal vein, can you take photos of the entire plant and ideally new growth?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 11:01:58 PM by huertasurbanas »

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2017, 10:42:20 PM »
Hi, I bought 5 plants (3 years old, 40 cm tall) from a seller at Corrientes, Argentina, that said they are myrciaria coronata... but to me it looks like sabara, myrciaria jaboticaba... what do u think?

The fruits were very tasty, sweet and acid, not too acid, like a mix of grapes and plums (but they were harvested a bit unripe and they traveled for 4 days so I think they were in the starting stage of a fermentation... they had a "wine" taste too). Soft to the touch.

To me, they dont have the green crown in the apex that should have a myrciaria coronata fruit.



And the leaves are different to what I identified as m. coronata (not too elongated, the new sprouts are not like that), very similar to my m. jaboticaba, but new sprouts are not red/brown... or not so brown...



The leaf venation is more reticulated than my sabaras, but very similar:





And the grow habit (or the shape of the plant) is similar to my sabaras:


« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 10:56:14 PM by huertasurbanas »

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2017, 03:27:25 PM »
are you sure the pros at Daley's nursery have the right ID?

I personally don't trust their expertise.


 ;D

Hi all, this thread is scratching right where I'm itching. I have purchased 2 Coronata Jaboticabas, both are seedlings from Daley's nursery and both look very different. These photos are all from the tree I bought for my folks and the leaves are about twice the size of mine and keep their fine hairs a long time (can't remember if my leaves are even hairy, will check in a few days).

So is this seedling more like the Coronata or showing hybrid variation? Any input is greatly appreciated, will post pics of mine at home soon if there is interest.










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huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2017, 07:09:24 PM »
Hi, today Helton confirmed this should be m. coronata ("It is a variety of Plinia coronata, morphological variation is common in Myrtaceae"), but I am confused... the leaves and new sprouts are so similar to what I think it is sabara! :-S

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=25641.0
















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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2017, 10:10:08 PM »
yes look much like sabara...very hard to tell which species you have when it's not in front of you, and even then it can be confusing...
Hi, today Helton confirmed this should be m. coronata ("It is a variety of Plinia coronata, morphological variation is common in Myrtaceae"), but I am confused... the leaves and new sprouts are so similar to what I think it is sabara! :-S

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=25641.0















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Canvo

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2017, 12:29:24 AM »
No, i’m no Sure the pro’s at Daley’s have the correct ID. That plant I photographed is what they sent to my folks as Coronata but the one sent to me with the same label looks quite different. I will add photos of mine when it flushes.
I was hoping for some clarity, not trying to add to the confusion. I believe Daley’s grew theirs from seed so it could be a mix of Coronata and ?

huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2017, 10:59:12 AM »
I found another species -I believe it is something I dont have into my collection- from Misiones, the seller said it bears big fruits and that the "trunk is pretty"... but I dont have more data... just this photo:



It remembers me the grimal... the mid vein is so pronounced!

what do u think?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 11:01:01 AM by huertasurbanas »

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2017, 02:22:33 PM »
yes it does look like Grimal.

your collection is growing quickly, your doing great work, congratulations!

I found another species -I believe it is something I dont have into my collection- from Misiones, the seller said it bears big fruits and that the "trunk is pretty"... but I dont have more data... just this photo:



It remembers me the grimal... the mid vein is so pronounced!

what do u think?
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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2017, 02:23:56 PM »
No, i’m no Sure the pro’s at Daley’s have the correct ID. That plant I photographed is what they sent to my folks as Coronata but the one sent to me with the same label looks quite different. I will add photos of mine when it flushes.
I was hoping for some clarity, not trying to add to the confusion. I believe Daley’s grew theirs from seed so it could be a mix of Coronata and ?

if I had to bet, I'd say the plant in your photo is Plinia grandifolia, not Myrciaria coronata (actually designated as Plinia coronata now).  The Myrciarias have notable differences, fruiting closer to branch tips it seems, as M. tenella, M. dubia, M. vexator, and M. glazioviana etc..
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huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2017, 06:20:17 PM »
yes it does look like Grimal.

your collection is growing quickly, your doing great work, congratulations!
Thanks, I was lerning from you and other forum members, you are doing a great job too. And I really love fruits and jaboticabas the most, so I just cant stop! It cant be grimal because in Argentina we just dont have it... but it looks like that.

it is SOOOOOO difficult to ID jaboticabas, many of them are similar to sabara but for instance Helton says some of them are coronata... and other people say they are cauliflora, and so on... I really would like to ID them by the leaf venation: it should be possible for many especies, and many of them are really different, for instance p. rivularis, m. vexator, are really different from m. jaboticaba, m. trunciflora, m. caufliflora... etc

Maybe we just have a lot of HYBRID trees and they are playing tricks with us!

If we could ID if by just smelling the leaves, as for instance with e. uniflora!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 06:27:38 PM by huertasurbanas »

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2017, 04:03:10 PM »
but there's more to identifying a species, than just looking at venation.

to me that is very one dimensional

consider the leaf texture, pubescense, the petiole, also the leaf arrangement, or how they're positioned....many other factors...

sometimes you just have to wait for some fruit to tell what you have, the foliage can be deceptive, as seen when trying to differentiate between species like phitrantha and aureana.
yes it does look like Grimal.

your collection is growing quickly, your doing great work, congratulations!
Thanks, I was lerning from you and other forum members, you are doing a great job too. And I really love fruits and jaboticabas the most, so I just cant stop! It cant be grimal because in Argentina we just dont have it... but it looks like that.

it is SOOOOOO difficult to ID jaboticabas, many of them are similar to sabara but for instance Helton says some of them are coronata... and other people say they are cauliflora, and so on... I really would like to ID them by the leaf venation: it should be possible for many especies, and many of them are really different, for instance p. rivularis, m. vexator, are really different from m. jaboticaba, m. trunciflora, m. caufliflora... etc

Maybe we just have a lot of HYBRID trees and they are playing tricks with us!

If we could ID if by just smelling the leaves, as for instance with e. uniflora!
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huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2017, 07:23:29 PM »
Yes, but... look at this study:

"Summary: Foliar architecture of native species of Myrtaceae from Argentina I: Groups "Myrcia","Myrceugenia" and "Plinia". Nineteen species of native flora were studied to find patterns of leaf architecture to differentiate the Argentinean species of the groups (informal subtribal) "Plinia", "Myrcia" and "Myrceugenia" (sensu Lucas et al. 2007), (Tribe Myrteae, Family Myrtaceae). The leaves studied in this work are characterized by being simple, with apex and base variable, membranaceous to coriaceous in texture, and with entire margin. Its venation pattern is characterized by having the first vein category pinnate, simple, and straight, without agrophic veins; venation of secondary category with always brochidodromous-camptodromous veins, with one paramarginal vein, and may have two, one, or none intramarginal vein; the third and fourth vein category are random reticulate or branched, the areolae vary from undeveloped to fully developed and venules branching one, two, or more times.

Key words: Leaf Architecture; Myrtaceae; "Group Myrcia"; "Group Plinia"; "Group Myrceugenia"; Argentina."


sorry, the main text is in spanish...

http://www.scielo.org.ar/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1851-23722011000100004


For instance, for plinia rivularis they wrote:

"Descripción: Hojas simples, pecioladas, de 4.0-4.9 cm de largo y 1.5-2.1 cm de ancho, con lámina coriácea, simétricas, micrófilas, ovadas a elípticas; con base aguda cuneada y, ápice agudo acuminado, rostrado. Margen entero. Pecíolo normal y marginal, 5-6 de mm de largo y 1 mm de ancho. Venación de primera categoría pinnada, simple y recta; sin venas agróficas. 29- 35 pares de venas secundarias, camptódromas, broquidódromas, con vena paramarginal formada por venas de segunda categoría y, con una vena intramarginal formada por los ojales de venas de tercera categoría. Las venas de segunda categoría emergen irregularmente en ángulo agudo (70º en la base, 55º-70º en el centro y 90º en el ápice); curvadas y separadas de manera no uniforme. Áreas intercostales bien desarrolladas con ninguna, 1, 2 o 3 venas intersecundarias simples (raramente compuestas). Venación de tercera categoría reticulada al azar, de curso recto o sinuoso, las venas emergen variablemente en ángulo recto u obtuso. Venación de cuarta y quinta categoría reticulada al azar. Aréolas bien desarrolladas, con 4-5 lados y orientadas al azar. Vénulas ramificadas una o más veces. Venación de mayor orden: séptimo u octavo. Venación última marginal ojalada completa."

auto translation:

"Description: Simple leaves, petiolate, 4.0-4.9 cm long and 1.5-2.1 cm wide, with coriaceous lamina, symmetrical, microphilic, ovate to ellipticals; with acute cuneate base and, apex acute acuminate, rostrado. Full margin. Normal and marginal petiole, 5-6 mm long and 1 mm wide. First category pinnate, simple and straight; without agronomic veins. 29- 35 pairs of secondary veins, camptódromas, broquidódromas, with paramarginal vein formed by veins of second category and, with an intramarginal vein formed by the veins of third category veins. The second category veins emerge irregularly at an acute angle (70º at the base, 55º-70º at the center and 90º at the apex); curved and unevenly spaced. Well developed intercostal areas with none, 1, 2 or 3 simple intersecundary (rarely compound) veins. Venation of third category randomly cross-linked, straight or sinuous, the veins emerge variably at right or obtuse angle. Venation of fourth and fifth category reticulated at random. Well-developed, 4-5-sided, randomly oriented arbors. Branched veins one or more times. Venation of greater order: seventh or eighth. Venation last marginal full eye."

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2017, 03:25:15 PM »
yes i see the study, and they mention many other factors as I've stated, like leaf texture...I would have trouble identifying a species just by looking at the venation of the leaf, i need to see the bark, the growth habit, and to see new growth, old growth, pubescence on leaf, etc... and of course flowers and fruit help to pin point an ID...

Yes, but... look at this study:

"Summary: Foliar architecture of native species of Myrtaceae from Argentina I: Groups "Myrcia","Myrceugenia" and "Plinia". Nineteen species of native flora were studied to find patterns of leaf architecture to differentiate the Argentinean species of the groups (informal subtribal) "Plinia", "Myrcia" and "Myrceugenia" (sensu Lucas et al. 2007), (Tribe Myrteae, Family Myrtaceae). The leaves studied in this work are characterized by being simple, with apex and base variable, membranaceous to coriaceous in texture, and with entire margin. Its venation pattern is characterized by having the first vein category pinnate, simple, and straight, without agrophic veins; venation of secondary category with always brochidodromous-camptodromous veins, with one paramarginal vein, and may have two, one, or none intramarginal vein; the third and fourth vein category are random reticulate or branched, the areolae vary from undeveloped to fully developed and venules branching one, two, or more times.

Key words: Leaf Architecture; Myrtaceae; "Group Myrcia"; "Group Plinia"; "Group Myrceugenia"; Argentina."


sorry, the main text is in spanish...

http://www.scielo.org.ar/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1851-23722011000100004


For instance, for plinia rivularis they wrote:

"Descripción: Hojas simples, pecioladas, de 4.0-4.9 cm de largo y 1.5-2.1 cm de ancho, con lámina coriácea, simétricas, micrófilas, ovadas a elípticas; con base aguda cuneada y, ápice agudo acuminado, rostrado. Margen entero. Pecíolo normal y marginal, 5-6 de mm de largo y 1 mm de ancho. Venación de primera categoría pinnada, simple y recta; sin venas agróficas. 29- 35 pares de venas secundarias, camptódromas, broquidódromas, con vena paramarginal formada por venas de segunda categoría y, con una vena intramarginal formada por los ojales de venas de tercera categoría. Las venas de segunda categoría emergen irregularmente en ángulo agudo (70º en la base, 55º-70º en el centro y 90º en el ápice); curvadas y separadas de manera no uniforme. Áreas intercostales bien desarrolladas con ninguna, 1, 2 o 3 venas intersecundarias simples (raramente compuestas). Venación de tercera categoría reticulada al azar, de curso recto o sinuoso, las venas emergen variablemente en ángulo recto u obtuso. Venación de cuarta y quinta categoría reticulada al azar. Aréolas bien desarrolladas, con 4-5 lados y orientadas al azar. Vénulas ramificadas una o más veces. Venación de mayor orden: séptimo u octavo. Venación última marginal ojalada completa."

auto translation:

"Description: Simple leaves, petiolate, 4.0-4.9 cm long and 1.5-2.1 cm wide, with coriaceous lamina, symmetrical, microphilic, ovate to ellipticals; with acute cuneate base and, apex acute acuminate, rostrado. Full margin. Normal and marginal petiole, 5-6 mm long and 1 mm wide. First category pinnate, simple and straight; without agronomic veins. 29- 35 pairs of secondary veins, camptódromas, broquidódromas, with paramarginal vein formed by veins of second category and, with an intramarginal vein formed by the veins of third category veins. The second category veins emerge irregularly at an acute angle (70º at the base, 55º-70º at the center and 90º at the apex); curved and unevenly spaced. Well developed intercostal areas with none, 1, 2 or 3 simple intersecundary (rarely compound) veins. Venation of third category randomly cross-linked, straight or sinuous, the veins emerge variably at right or obtuse angle. Venation of fourth and fifth category reticulated at random. Well-developed, 4-5-sided, randomly oriented arbors. Branched veins one or more times. Venation of greater order: seventh or eighth. Venation last marginal full eye."
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 03:27:59 PM by FlyingFoxFruits »
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huertasurbanas

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2017, 05:49:21 PM »
Well, you are right, they dont look just at the leaf venation, the method seems to be the "Foliar architecture" one, and they dont talk about flowers, fruits, etc., that's why it seemed interesting to me, I will keep trying, this is a hard subject for me!

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Re: I found a good method to ID species! can you help identifying jaboticabas?
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2017, 05:58:56 PM »
Well, you are right, they dont look just at the leaf venation, the method seems to be the "Foliar architecture" one, and they dont talk about flowers, fruits, etc., that's why it seemed interesting to me, I will keep trying, this is a hard subject for me!

i think it might help to get the book by Harri Lorenzi, Frutas No Brasil.

they lay everything out for you, with clear pictures and descriptions, from there you can start to identify some of the trees that are in question.  But you will also need clues about your small seedlings, such as the seller, or the place the tree came from specifically, and also a picture or description of the fruit...growth habit, and tree size, and natural habitat.  And of course the book does not have every species or variety, so you'll have to browse the internet for websites, and posts on social media, to identify extra rare specimens.

let me tell you, it's a full time job, trying to figure out which species of Plinia you have  ;D
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