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Author Topic: Excellent write up on the myth of adding mychorzzial products and discussions  (Read 1117 times)

Mark in Texas

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Well, like I've said before, it's probably a feel good drill but I've innoculated, drenched, 1,000's of transplants for field planting and pots with MycoApply Soluble Maxx.  Apparently I don't need it in lieu of good soil and adding compost.

http://www.gardenmyths.com/mycorrhizae-fungi-inoculant-products/

Caveat regarding the author's approach, the benefit is there.  Adding a retail source is not and could be harmful to the natural microbe colony. 

I also did not frame Mycorrhiza in a negative way. In fact what I said was “There is no doubt that mycorrhizae fungi play an important role in plant growth. They help aggregate the soil which in turn provides plant roots with better access to water and oxygen. Their symbiotic relationship with plants helps them access water and nutrients.” The point of the post, was that there is no good reason to add purchased product to your garden. I have talked to experts in the field and they agree that adding mycorrhizae to gardens is a waste of money.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 10:29:43 AM by Mark in Texas »

simon_grow

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I performed isolation, extraction and DNA sequencing on beneficial/detrimental soil organisms for 4 years and I can’t get into details because of non disclosure agreements but based on public information that is easily obtained through searches in scholarly articles, you will find that specific species of organisms benefit specific plant crops.

Most native soils no matter how bare, dry or devoid of life, usually contains a massive amount of organisms. I agree that most our planting’s do not need or may not benefit from the addition of these highly marketed products. There has been an explosion in the number of these products and the companies are making a lot of money.

Some trees like Lychees however may have a beneficial soil organism associated with its roots that will help it thrive. In these cases, a gardener does not need to buy a specific product which probably doesn’t contain said beneficial organism but should instead find a large heavy producing Lychee tree for example and dig up some soil from the rhizosphere to use as innoculant for their tree. Even if a young Lychee tree is not innoculated in this manner, the environment will usually have spores floating around and the beneficial organism will eventually find its way to the trees rhizosphere. Some media such as spaghnum peat moss commonly used in Lychee air layers may be a natural incubator or attractant to this organism.

Simon

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The subject is complex.  In general, we use microorganisms along with bio mass.  The idea is not to accomplish anything specific to a crop but to support the soil by accelerating the decomposition of the bio mass in place.  This results in a healthier humus layer in our tropical environment.
Many growers in our area make up their own 'ferments' based on collected leaf litter, especially where micorizae is evident.  We often use commercially produced products for this purpose as it's convenient and the results are more consistent..
Peter

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Consistent with what I've read about nitogen fixing bacteria. Species are found in soil samples in areas where their presumed host species (even genuses) have never grown. The bugs are probably there already.
Shane

Mark in Texas

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I performed isolation, extraction and DNA sequencing on beneficial/detrimental soil organisms for 4 years and I can’t get into details because of non disclosure agreements but based on public information that is easily obtained through searches in scholarly articles, you will find that specific species of organisms benefit specific plant crops.

That's what I'm after, what species?  There is a type called AM or VAM that does an incredible job on grapevines.

Like the "health" food industry there is no regulatory agency testing for purity, potency and substance.   I do know that since I ran out the stock I've put in the ground looks like crap.....it's stunted and doesn't look healthy.  A bay tree and a transplanted Owari satsuma comes to mine.   

"They say" that when you disturb the soil such as plowing, discing, shovel to plant a tree that you destroy the colony that was there.  Why......I have no clue.

raimeiken

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this is exactly what I've been telling people. It's a waste of money, just like the rock dust that everyone seems to be so keen on adding onto their gardens. Just compost, and mulch is all you need. Make gardening simple and cheap.

fyliu

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I think by "destroy", they meant that the mycelial mat that connects the whole organism is broken up when you dig up the soil. It weakens whatever's there and it could be more easily killed by other species of fungi or bacteria. If it's a fungus that helps plants collect water, then the water-collecting capacity will take a hit until everything's connected up again. I don't think digging up a few spots will kill the whole thing.

greenman62

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I think by "destroy", they meant that the mycelial mat that connects the whole organism is broken up when you dig up the soil. It weakens whatever's there and it could be more easily killed by other species of fungi or bacteria. If it's a fungus that helps plants collect water, then the water-collecting capacity will take a hit until everything's connected up again. I don't think digging up a few spots will kill the whole thing.

well said.

AM (Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi) need roots to grow.
you can not increase them in the soil without live growing plants.
they can lay dormant for months, maybe years,
but their numbers will rapidly start to decrease
without living roots

they form a network, not just off of the roots of 1 plant
but, actually between plants, sharing minerals and water.

digging a small hole will temporarily disturb them, and lower their numbers
but they will come back if conditions are right.

in big Agriculture, where a disc is used several times a year to disturb (TILL) the soil
the numbers never get to rebound properly.
especially when chemical fertilizers are added
if tilled over and over again for years, it can kill off some species
(or, more likely, the numbers are just so low it would take decades for them to rebound)
Keep in mind, there are usually several types of AM Fungi that can be helpful for any 1 species of plant.
some of them do better (multiply faster) at a certain temp, some at a certain moisture level etc...
so, its good to have a large diverse set of them

-----------------

Vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhiza (VAM) is formed by the symbiotic association between certain phycomycetous fungi and angiosperm roots. The fungus colonizes the root cortex forming a mycelial network and characteristic vesicles (bladder-like structures) and arbuscules (branched finger-like hyphae).
-
An arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus
(plural mycorrhizae or mycorrhizas, a.k.a. endomycorrhiza, AM fungi, or AMF)
is a type of mycorrhiza in which the fungus penetrates the cortical cells of the roots of a vascular plant.

Endo Vs Ecto
Endomycorrhizae have an exchange mechanism on the inside of the root (and the hyphae extend outside the root).  Endomycorrhizal fungi form mostly with green leafy plants and most commercially produced plants.  Examples: Most Vegetables, Grasses, Flowers, Shrubs, Fruit Trees, and Ornamentals.

Ectomycorrhizae live only outside of the root.  Ectomycorrhizal fungi form mainly with Conifers and Oaks.  They are required only for a small percentage of woody type plants/trees.

gozp

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I did a little experiment using mycorrhizae.

Without mycorrhizae



With mycorrhizae




Both were planted as seedlings... prior to planting them the photo ofnthe top was acutally bigger after a few months the one with mycorrhizae is way bigger than the one without.. i dont believe its a waste to add mycelium in the soil.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 06:06:36 PM by gozp »

DesertDreamer

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My unquantified two cents:  I get a better success rate when I use fungi at transplant.  I believe there is a lot of hype around these products, and that native fungi dominate rapidly, but I have seen enough of a difference that I use a bit on high value plants at certain growth stages.  FWIW....
All views expressed are from my personal experience, in my particular conditions.  Your mileage may vary.

barath

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I'm curious -- which mycorrhizae did you use / from what source?

I did a little experiment using mycorrhizae.

Without mycorrhizae



With mycorrhizae




Both were planted as seedlings... prior to planting them the photo ofnthe top was acutally bigger after a few months the one with mycorrhizae is way bigger than the one without.. i dont believe its a waste to add mycelium in the soil.

zands

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My unquantified two cents:  I get a better success rate when I use fungi at transplant.  I believe there is a lot of hype around these products, and that native fungi dominate rapidly, but I have seen enough of a difference that I use a bit on high value plants at certain growth stages.  FWIW....

Fungi is where it is at. I have never bought and used any. I just pile on the wood chips which takes a bit longer but will create a culture of mychorzzial bacteria for your soil near the tree. I pile on chips only by the mango and such trees/sapodilla/avocado/muscadine grapes etc in a 3-5ft diameter. The rest of my yard is lawn grass because I like lawn grass.

I have nothing against buying mychorzzial products. Just that you must also dump wood chips around the tree to give these mychorzzial something to chomp on.

I also use chems like 8-3-9 and used in intelligent moderation the mychorzzial do not mind one bit.  So I use wood chips for the mychorzzial and organic portion and use straight potassium sulfate or 8 3 9 for the chem portion. Sorry but no horse stables nearby to haul manure from plus as Carlos/avocados in Miami said after our hurricane "I am getting too old for this shit" As in I am against doing lots of heavy lifting once I passed 60. Screw that!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 12:00:19 AM by zands »

gozp

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I'm curious -- which mycorrhizae did you use / from what source?

I did a little experiment using mycorrhizae.

Without mycorrhizae



With mycorrhizae




Both were planted as seedlings... prior to planting them the photo ofnthe top was acutally bigger after a few months the one with mycorrhizae is way bigger than the one without.. i dont believe its a waste to add mycelium in the soil.








Bought it on amazon. I use this prior to planting the tree. What i've been told that when u add myco it shud be directly to the roots.

If not  it will all goes to waste.

Mark in Texas

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"I am getting too old for this shit" As in I am against doing lots of heavy lifting once I passed 60. Screw that!

Tell me about it.  Am a new man now where before the lower lumbar operation the pinched nerves due to stenosis and compression caused crippling pain.



Great comments.   Good info fyliu.

Just a note, the MycoApply Soluble Maxx contains a much broader mix of microbes, or so they say on the label/ads.  Again, we're all going on blind faith regarding Truth in Advertising.

Having a Xmas tree biz, growing conifers, it may be that the 3 years of planting green manure crops and drenching EVERY tree liner before planting made a big difference in vigor.  My pines would go from 10" to 6' tall in 3 years.   Same with the grape vines - the canopy vigor is unmanageable but production is huge, like 15# per vine.



Seanny

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Your big head is putting too much stress on your spines.

Vernmented

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I'm curious -- which mycorrhizae did you use / from what source?

I did a little experiment using mycorrhizae.

Without mycorrhizae



With mycorrhizae




Both were planted as seedlings... prior to planting them the photo ofnthe top was acutally bigger after a few months the one with mycorrhizae is way bigger than the one without.. i dont believe its a waste to add mycelium in the soil.








Bought it on amazon. I use this prior to planting the tree. What i've been told that when u add myco it shud be directly to the roots.

If not  it will all goes to waste.

I have been using that stuff mixed with the Mykos. I apply straight to wet roots when potting up and planting in ground. My entire soil profile in my yard is disturbed and altered. I have seen mycorrhizae on roots but there is no way of knowing if it was from a strain that was already present. I try to buy from the distributer in hopes of getting a live product. I keep it in a jar in my pantry.

99% of my plants are exotic so I am not so worried about introducing strains that could compete with the natives.

What is the problem with rock dusts/Azomite? I would think they would be very beneficial to a extremely biologically active soils. Wouldn't the root exudates, microbes and fungi help break down the minerals into plant soluble forms?

-Josh

greenman62

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the "god" of fungi research is - Paul Stamets - ...
his company is fungi.com

i bought 1 lb of this stuff.
i fully trust this more than any other product.
and its a great buy. a little goes a long way
and it adds beneficial bacteria (not just fungi)
+ its all-purpose (Has Endo and Ecto)
http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/mycogrow-soluble-1-lb.html
 One ounce of MycoGrow Soluble will treat 125 to 200 plants; 1 pound will treat about 2000- 4000 plants or an area covering approximately 4000 square feet.
--

Contains concentrated spore mass of the following:

- Endomycorrhizal fungi

Glomus intraradices, Glomus mosseae, Glomus aggregatum, Glomus etunicatum, Glomus deserticola, Glomus monosporum, Glomus clarum, Paraglomus brasilianum, Gigaspora margarita

- Ectomycorrhizal fungi

Rhizopogon villosulus, Rhizopogon luteolus, Rhizopogon amylopogon, Rhizopogon fulvigleba, Pisolithus tinctorius, Suillus granulatus, Laccaria bicolor, Laccaria laccata, Scleroderma cepa, Scleroderma citrinum

- Disease Suppression Organisms

Trichoderma koningii, Trichoderma harzianum

Beneficial Bacteria

Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus azotoformans, Bacillus megaterium, Bacillus coagulans, Bacillus pumilus, Bacillus thuringiensis, Paenibacillus polymyxa, Paenibacillus durum, Azobacter chroococcum, Psuedomonas aureofaciens, Psuedomonas fluorescens, Saccharomyces cerevisiae

greenman62

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Stamets has quite a following
and there are lots of videos  hes made
some are very very interesting
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1511&bih=648&tbm=vid&q=Paul+Stamets

Tropicdude

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I do remember reading some years ago, field studies / research that showed that Gigaspora margarita was the strain that most benefited Mango.

http://www.researchjournal.co.in/upload/assignments/3_415-418.pdf
William
" The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago.....The second best time, is now ! "

zands

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"I am getting too old for this shit" As in I am against doing lots of heavy lifting once I passed 60. Screw that!

Tell me about it.  Am a new man now where before the lower lumbar operation the pinched nerves due to stenosis and compression caused crippling pain.



Great comments.   Good info fyliu.

Just a note, the MycoApply Soluble Maxx contains a much broader mix of microbes, or so they say on the label/ads.  Again, we're all going on blind faith regarding Truth in Advertising.

Having a Xmas tree biz, growing conifers, it may be that the 3 years of planting green manure crops and drenching EVERY tree liner before planting made a big difference in vigor.  My pines would go from 10" to 6' tall in 3 years.   Same with the grape vines - the canopy vigor is unmanageable but production is huge, like 15# per vine.




Good lumbar operation by your Doc who is one of the best. Your grape and Christmas tree production is tremendous. Chuck Levell with The Rolling Stones has a Christmas tree farm and is a kinda eco-warrior.

Mark in Texas

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What is the problem with rock dusts/Azomite? I would think they would be very beneficial to a extremely biologically active soils. Wouldn't the root exudates, microbes and fungi help break down the minerals into plant soluble forms?

If your soil analysis suggests the need for the minerals they may provide, then go for it.  I don't see any value myself.  The analysis is Na, Cl, (who needs table salt), a little Mg and K and a lot of Ca.

I think it's another feel-good thing with folks who forked out money seeing what they expect to see regarding claimed improved plant performance.  Plenty of anecdotal evidence too which isn't worth the screen it appears upon.

https://www.amazon.com/Root-Naturally-Azomite-Rock-Dust/dp/B0149L0EJ2/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1507809270&sr=8-18&keywords=mycorrhizae

Vernmented

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I thought it was ancient volcanic ash with an entire spectrum of minerals.

What is the problem with rock dusts/Azomite? I would think they would be very beneficial to a extremely biologically active soils. Wouldn't the root exudates, microbes and fungi help break down the minerals into plant soluble forms?

If your soil analysis suggests the need for the minerals they may provide, then go for it.  I don't see any value myself.  The analysis is Na, Cl, (who needs table salt), a little Mg and K and a lot of Ca.

I think it's another feel-good thing with folks who forked out money seeing what they expect to see regarding claimed improved plant performance.  Plenty of anecdotal evidence too which isn't worth the screen it appears upon.

https://www.amazon.com/Root-Naturally-Azomite-Rock-Dust/dp/B0149L0EJ2/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1507809270&sr=8-18&keywords=mycorrhizae
-Josh

Mark in Texas

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I thought it was ancient volcanic ash with an entire spectrum of minerals.

Not according to the label which I linked you to.

And just how "ancient" is it?  ;D  Sorry for the sarcasm but I can't help it.  There's so much crap, false and pretentious advertising out there it's unreal.

Vernmented

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-Josh

fyliu

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the "god" of fungi research is - Paul Stamets - ...
his company is fungi.com

i bought 1 lb of this stuff.
i fully trust this more than any other product.
I would trust him more on fungi too. He even wears fungi. His hat is made of this really flammable conk's fibers.

Rhizopogon villosulus, Rhizopogon luteolus, Rhizopogon amylopogon, Rhizopogon fulvigleba, Pisolithus tinctorius, Suillus granulatus, Laccaria bicolor, Laccaria laccata, Scleroderma cepa, Scleroderma citrinum
I get some Rhizopogons around my fruit trees and Pisolithus tinctorius under my oak. I've been breaking up the masses and spreading it in the root zone of all my plants. But supposedly, fungi colonize the soil and roots of plant really fast, and it's more effective to inoculate soon after seed germination (for things like truffles) or at tree transplanting like someone said above (so you can apply it on the roots themselves. The spores aren't going to drill down into the soil to look for roots. I figured I'd try to apply them to my plants anyway since I already have them anyway.

I just pile on the wood chips which takes a bit longer but will create a culture of mychorzzial bacteria for your soil near the tree.
Zands, fungi eat specific things. The ones that eat dead wood (wood chips, leaf mulch, dead layer of grass under lawn) are saprophytes. They can live independently of trees (button mushroom), opportunistically consume exposed wood (oyster mushroom), or they can parasitize and kill the trees (honey mushroom). Breaking down the wood recycles the nutrients as a positive effect but these are not the mycorrhizal fungi that have a beneficial relationship with living plants via root interactions.

ricshaw

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If your soil analysis suggests the need for the minerals they may provide, then go for it.  I don't see any value myself.  The analysis is Na, Cl, (who needs table salt), a little Mg and K and a lot of Ca.

I think it's another feel-good thing with folks who forked out money seeing what they expect to see regarding claimed improved plant performance.  Plenty of anecdotal evidence too which isn't worth the screen it appears upon.

https://www.amazon.com/Root-Naturally-Azomite-Rock-Dust/dp/B0149L0EJ2/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1507809270&sr=8-18&keywords=mycorrhizae

Interesting that Mark's link has glowing reviews for Azomite.

Probably a waste of money for the soil where I live, but a couple years ago when I was in Nevada, I bought a big bag for $20.

I add it to my potting mixes.  Probably doesn't hurt. I agree it is over hyped.

gozp

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What is the problem with rock dusts/Azomite? I would think they would be very beneficial to a extremely biologically active soils. Wouldn't the root exudates, microbes and fungi help break down the minerals into plant soluble forms?

If your soil analysis suggests the need for the minerals they may provide, then go for it.  I don't see any value myself.  The analysis is Na, Cl, (who needs table salt), a little Mg and K and a lot of Ca.

I think it's another feel-good thing with folks who forked out money seeing what they expect to see regarding claimed improved plant performance.  Plenty of anecdotal evidence too which isn't worth the screen it appears upon.

https://www.amazon.com/Root-Naturally-Azomite-Rock-Dust/dp/B0149L0EJ2/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1507809270&sr=8-18&keywords=mycorrhizae





 Im after the minerals & trace elements not table salt. :)

Vernmented

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Good find! I never heard the sea water part of it before. I thought all of the trace minerals were from the ash blasting out from deep within the Earth. I used to the beach with net bags and fill them up with seaweed to mulch with. At first I would rinse it off but I think that the small amount of salt would be just fine. I use Redman's Real Salt from Utah. I'll just throw some Azomite on my food instead.  ;D I have heard of humans eating Azomite but I can't image much of it would absorb. I know Azomite is fed to animals.

What is the problem with rock dusts/Azomite? I would think they would be very beneficial to a extremely biologically active soils. Wouldn't the root exudates, microbes and fungi help break down the minerals into plant soluble forms?

If your soil analysis suggests the need for the minerals they may provide, then go for it.  I don't see any value myself.  The analysis is Na, Cl, (who needs table salt), a little Mg and K and a lot of Ca.

I think it's another feel-good thing with folks who forked out money seeing what they expect to see regarding claimed improved plant performance.  Plenty of anecdotal evidence too which isn't worth the screen it appears upon.

https://www.amazon.com/Root-Naturally-Azomite-Rock-Dust/dp/B0149L0EJ2/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1507809270&sr=8-18&keywords=mycorrhizae





 Im after the minerals & trace elements not table salt. :)
-Josh

gozp

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Good find! I never heard the sea water part of it before. I thought all of the trace minerals were from the ash blasting out from deep within the Earth. I used to the beach with net bags and fill them up with seaweed to mulch with. At first I would rinse it off but I think that the small amount of salt would be just fine. I use Redman's Real Salt from Utah. I'll just throw some Azomite on my food instead.  ;D I have heard of humans eating Azomite but I can't image much of it would absorb. I know Azomite is fed to animals.

What is the problem with rock dusts/Azomite? I would think they would be very beneficial to a extremely biologically active soils. Wouldn't the root exudates, microbes and fungi help break down the minerals into plant soluble forms?

If your soil analysis suggests the need for the minerals they may provide, then go for it.  I don't see any value myself.  The analysis is Na, Cl, (who needs table salt), a little Mg and K and a lot of Ca.

I think it's another feel-good thing with folks who forked out money seeing what they expect to see regarding claimed improved plant performance.  Plenty of anecdotal evidence too which isn't worth the screen it appears upon.

https://www.amazon.com/Root-Naturally-Azomite-Rock-Dust/dp/B0149L0EJ2/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1507809270&sr=8-18&keywords=mycorrhizae





 Im after the minerals & trace elements not table salt. :)

It wasn't my find. It was actually the link of Mark in Texas provided. I just had to read everything what was written there. :D

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Good find! I never heard the sea water part of it before. I thought all of the trace minerals were from the ash blasting out from deep within the Earth. I used to the beach with net bags and fill them up with seaweed to mulch with. At first I would rinse it off but I think that the small amount of salt would be just fine. I use Redman's Real Salt from Utah. I'll just throw some Azomite on my food instead.  ;D I have heard of humans eating Azomite but I can't image much of it would absorb. I know Azomite is fed to animals.

I actually think that especially in coastal areas we already get plenty of salt from atmospheric deposition of salt from the sea. Most raindrops nucleate on marine salt particles, and marine salt makes up the largest source of atmospheric dry deposition on earth.

Mark in Texas

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I would trust him more on fungi too. He even wears fungi. His hat is made of this really flammable conk's fibers.

....and mushrooms will save the world, AND, And....save us from ourselves!   ;D  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-9zzXuZ2h4

Me thinks the Mycelium guru done got hold of the wrong shrooms.  8)

Speaking of mushrooms had our first locally grown Oyster mushrooms bought at a San Antonio Farmer's Market.  Damn good and not pricey either.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 09:14:33 AM by Mark in Texas »

Mark in Texas

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It wasn't my find. It was actually the link of Mark in Texas provided. I just had to read everything what was written there. :D

Most plants require all of the 13 essential elements - macros, secondaries and micros.  Where those elements come from isn't the issue as long as they're in the proper form the plant can uptake and process.  Salts aka chemicals.   Anything beyond that belongs in the group of Beneficial elements.  Silicon comes to mind.

Check out the incredible SUPER high tech, huge greenhouse ops the Dutch are doing.  They are kicking butt regarding production using hydroponics, salts, special LED lighting, robots.

Vernmented

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The more that I think about it volcanic ash mixed with ancient sea water sounds like an ideal amendment. Throw some sulfur pellets down as well to help with pH if you are going that route.
-Josh

Mark in Texas

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The more that I think about it volcanic ash mixed with ancient sea water sounds like an ideal amendment. Throw some sulfur pellets down as well to help with pH if you are going that route.

Don't forget a little bit of angel dust and eye of newt.   ;D

 

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