Author Topic: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.  (Read 9287 times)

sahai1

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Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« on: October 25, 2017, 07:55:03 AM »
I have stayed away from Salacca for the most part in Thailand, because usually what you see in the markets is sour and used for cooking like limes.  So they are not bad, but just like limes you don't eat them alone.  I believe this is Salacca wallichiana variety.  And I also believe but not sure that in Thai this sour variety must be referred to as "Lagum."  Again I repeat, new knowledge I'm learning here so feel free to correct me.

And so there is another kind, "Sala".  Which I just realized is basically the same species as "Lagum" just a different variety, so they can be crossbred or used as cross pollinators... But when I want to find "Sweet" Salacca I should be looking for "Sala" and not "Lagum."

So for the last few months I have been bombarded by posts in my facebook groups of sales of "Sala Indo" which I believed was what some people have referred to on this forum as Salak Bali, which is self pollinating.  But I found out today that "Sala Indo" is not self pollinating.  Today I was in the deep south near the border of Malaysia in Trang, and found "Sala Nampeung (Honey)", "Sala Indo Black" and "Sala Indo Brown"  The brown Indonesian was smaller and more pointed then the Black.  The Sala Nampeung looks almost identical to the sour "Lagum" however the taste is excellent!

I bought 1 kg of each kind, and went through that all today.

The Sala Indo Black is very plain in my opinion, neither sour or sweet, edible though unlike Lagum.  It is very large though.  I would not plant this in my opinion, I ate quite a few at different stages, and even the sweetest of the bunches could not compare to the other two.  It is a bit dry.

Second place would be the Sala Indo Brown, which is also a bit plain but has fruity hints of like a green apple, but a green apple would be more sour tasting than this. It is also a bit dry.

First place, Sala Namepeung, or Honey Salak.  Now I must admit.. I have seen pictures of brown and black Indonesian Salak being called Sala Nampeung Indo, or similar.. so this is definitely a source of confusion.  But for reference it is skinny, the skin peels right off and does not stick at all, it is red in color, and usually contains 2 seeds, occasionally 3, and sometimes seedless.  It is very sweet, very flavorful, very juicy, and there is a hint of sourness, but it only accentuates the sweetness like a great pineapple.  The slight sour tinge is not astringent like in Lagum, and I am a good judge of that because I have sensitive teeth.  In fact I stay away from all limes, lemons, and bilimbi in my garden as these do open up the enamel on my teeth very fast.  So in summary, not astringent, but sour notes are present.

If anybody can point me to some verifiable information on Sala Nampeung, like species name and so on please help.  Also some people have said this variety is self-pollinating, so that would be great, as currently I'm interested in only planting 5-6 trees in between coconut trees.

Finca La Isla

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2017, 09:57:33 PM »
Probably, the brown and black or dark brown are simply the Java type, salacca salacca.
Does the red salak have much larger scales?  There is a different species that is red, salacca affinis.  Affinis is a sweet salak if a good selection.
There's plenty of variety within these species and types if planted by seed.
Peter

sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2017, 11:51:40 PM »
In my opinion the Sala Nampeung looks exactly like the Sour Lagum strain, including size, color, shape, etc... perhaps the palm trees would show some difference.

These are addictive, while reaching for these to take the pictures I finished off all the Sala Nampeung, the big black Indonesians I can wait to eat.




« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 11:54:24 PM by sahai1 »

sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2017, 11:53:36 PM »
Ok try again on pictures...









sunny

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 07:28:17 AM »
Is the red sala the nice one for you?

sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2017, 12:54:00 AM »
Yes it is the best in my opinion, the seller just called it Sala Nampeung.  It is very strange because nobody is selling this kind now.  The market for seedlings is full of Sala Indo Nampeung.

The red one looks exactly like sour "Lagum" so buyer beware. :)

Very sweet, very juicy, and occasionally seedless!  However it is quick to ferment like pineapple (still edible like overripe pineapple) and the fruit sticks to the seed. It has a slight tartness that makes the juicy sweetness so much better, the juicyness and flavorfullness is what makes it better than any kind of Sala Indo in my opinion.

I need to try some more of the Red sweet ones.. I don't think I've ever tried Namnerng or Sumalee, I'm curious how much of an actual difference the sweet sala have. The Thai people have a habit of hyping up regional growing areas and renaming cultivars after the region, even though the species is the same.  Chumpon Banana is a great example of that. or Bangmot Oranges.


Mvule101

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2017, 12:59:54 AM »
Very interesting... on a side note does anyone know how long Salacca take to reach fruiting size. I have some I am growing from seed. They are about one year old.

sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2017, 01:24:11 AM »
Not too long, within 2-3 years, I read if you are seeing woody stem at the trunk then you are approaching flowering.  The male and female flowers are easily distinguishable from each other, so you can identify gender, however I have read from many Thai people that the cross pollinating is a major factor in discontinuing to grow Sala, and switching to rubber or palm oil.  So I think self pollinating species is best way to go!

I'm very interested to know if the different subspecies can be used as cross pollinators especially the self fertile ones, obviously seed stock would be no good, but it would beat saving male flowers in bottles and doing the rounds.

For me in the worst case, I think I can deal with cutting male flowers and bottling them and putting them in the fridge and doing the rounds in the mornings..

Mike T

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2017, 03:28:32 AM »
Salacca wallichiana is the thai one with rakum and sakum being closer to the wild types and are rounder and sourer.Lines and varieties sufficiently improved, and more elongate with looser skins qualify for the term sala which is a general classification of quality.Sala sumalee is the best and noen wong is second best.Sala sane is an example of a lesser quality sala which is still better than rakum and sakum.
Salacca zalacca is the indonesial one and look at past threads on it.

sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2017, 10:47:25 AM »
All three of these were grown in Thailand.  I have read some threads on here about Salak Bali, but verified with grower of Sala Indo that Sala Indo is definitely not self pollinatimg, so different varitety.

What is Sagum?  Are we using Thai or  Engliah?  I know Ragum is a spcies name but in Thai sour Sallaca are called 'Lagum'.  Sour Lagum may be wild but the price of it outperforms durian sonetimes at 80 baht/kg

Like I mentioned before the sweet red Sala I ate looks exactly the same as sour 'Lagum' .. skin peeling off, slender, long, etc.  Sumalee pictures I saw showed them as a bit short and plump.  Inthink the red one is similar to Namnerng, and the seller may have been confused about what the red one was called.

The only round Sallaca I've seen are the ones I posted in the pic above as Sala Indo Black.  Very plain

Mike T

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2017, 05:12:00 PM »
They are the Thai names and all can be reddish. Salacca edulis is a fake name in the literature and there are around 20 species in the genus.The other good one is Salacca zalacca in Indonesia with the Bali/ambon form self fertile and an hermaphrodite. All other Salaccas have separate sexes.There are around 20 standard zalacca varieties with the best around Yogiyarta and around 20 Bali varieties with gula pasir and boni being types of note.
Those salaks that are ood and worth growing are really 2 Thais salas.2 Javan zalaccas and maybe 5 bali race amboenas.

sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2017, 07:18:43 PM »
Can they all be used as cross pollinators?  Sala indo, sweet red sala, Lagum?

Chupa King

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2017, 11:16:57 PM »
Here are some grown on the Big Island.


Biodiversity is key.

sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2017, 02:11:24 AM »
Is that Salak Bali?  Self pollinating, looks different from Sala Indo I recently ate, yours has more hairs, I think Sala Indo in Thai is same as Salak Pondoh...

How's the taste?  Have you had sweet red?  If I didn't have sweet red I would've said that Sala Pondoh is excellent, but if ate side by side the Red beats it in taste no second thoughts.

Chupa King

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2017, 02:46:37 AM »
This is the Bali we have floating around here. It taste very much like a mild pineapple with a hint of strawberry. It is one of my highly favored fruits.

I have young plants of the red and the Bali variant that has a pink hue on the flesh. I have tasted the pink flesh and forgot to take a photo of it. It almost had a rose over tone... Similar to the Bali in flavor. I have not tried the red, heard it is very juicy.



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sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2017, 03:45:55 AM »
Looks alot like the Sala Pondoh, I don't know a lot about Salak because I don't have any mature trees.  In the original photo the fruit looked very hairy, but not so much in the last photo. 

I like that kind too, but if you eat side by side with the Red Sweet Sala, just no comparison, trust me!  Red is so juicy and is just full of flavor, I guess it could be measured by Brix as well and would likely test twice as sweet.

Finca La Isla

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2017, 07:07:29 AM »
I would add to what Mike T has said that salacca affinis, the red salak, is a very good salak.  I am ramping up production here as the production I have is very sought after.
Peter

sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2017, 07:20:10 AM »
yes I wouldn't doubt that, if you wouldn't mind could you post some pictures of your trees and fruits, would like to see what your Red Salak looks like, and you are sure yours is Salak Affinis?  How are you planting the palms in distance and are you getting suckers, if so are you allowing them to grow?

Are you self pollinating by hand, or can the job be done by bees or flies?

Sorry for so many questions!  I'm in the tropical lowlands, so I thinking maybe cull my starfruit, roseapple, noni, etc... and just go full on Red Salak!

Mike T

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2017, 07:27:59 AM »
Salacca affinis is the next best species and better than some varieties of zalacca and wallichiana. Pondoh is the best Javanese zalacca but still has an earthy hint. Bad thai salas taste like cough medicine is in them but they are softer, yellower fleshed and comparatively juicy. Balis are a bit crisper and whiter fleshed and many taste like pineapple core. Bali zalacca (variety amboensis) are preferred by most to the S. zalacca zalacca such as javenese types.

sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2017, 07:48:12 AM »
how to those scientific names match up to the Thai names like on this website page, can you read Thai?

http://www.bansuanporpeang.com/node/29631


First brown one photographed is what Thais called Sala Indo - which may match up with Salak Pondoh naming.  Which is Salacca Zallaca right?

Second group of pictures just introduces Thai forms and their common names สละ หรือ ระกำหวาน หรือ ส้มกำ เรียกในบางพื้นที่ทางภาคใต้  - Sala, Sweet Ragum, Orange Gum (in the south most slightly sour fruits start with the word Som - Orange, e.g. SomNao = Manao)

So Third set of pictures introduces: สละสุมาลี ลักษณะทรงต้นเดี่ยวๆ ไม่มีหน่อใหม่หรือต้นใหม่เพิ่ม - Sala Sumalee, which is identified by not having suckers.  In the picture it is rounded and plump.

Fourth set of pictures ลักษณะทรงต้นคล้ายระกำมาก บางท่านให้ชื่อ สละเนินวง - Trees looks like Ragum (sour Sala) name is Nernnuang - I think this is maybe the Red Sala I mentioned originally in my post.

The last set of pictures is ส่วนต้นนี้ สละไร้หนาม หรืออีกชื่อว่า สะกำ เรียก สละหม้อ - Sala Mor, which doesn't have thorns on the tree or fruit?  I guess they mean tree as the pictures still show the thorny hairs on the fruit.

Please note the captions are at the end of the sets of photographs.

What do you think the scientific names are for Nerngnuang, Sala Mor, and Sumalee?






Mike T

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2017, 09:48:44 AM »
Salacca wallichiana Sala var. sumalee is best, Noen wong second best, moh is common and 3rd best and sane which is not pictured is  (prounounced sarnee) is 4th best and each is progressively sourer.The spelling and pronunciation varies.
Salacca wallichiana type .ragum/rakum sour and round, var sakum sour and round
The first one doesn't look like sala and may be pondoh which is zalacca.Sumalee actually does have suckers and that is how this variety is propagated.Sala moh doesn't have the thorns on the leaves.

sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2017, 10:46:43 AM »
On this website which is usually reliable it says specifically twice, no shoots, no new trees with Sumalee:
สละชนิดผลสั้น จากการค้นหาข้อมูลมีผู้ให้ชื่อว่า สละสุมาลี ลักษณะทรงต้นเดี่ยวๆ ไม่มีหน่อใหม่หรือต้นใหม่เพิ่ม
That is how Sumalee is clearly identified.  I'll do some more research into this.  If Sunalee is best, then seedlings would have to br cross pollinated from good stock.  Perhaps Sunalee is grown in Trat, I read that is where the best Sala comes from.

So in summuray alp Red Thai Sala is Sallaca Wallichiana?  Can it be crossbred with Ssllaca Zallaca?

sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2017, 11:07:31 AM »
roadtrip to Phattalung maybe tomorrow, visit 2 Sumalee farms, if they have suckers I want some!! 

Finca La Isla

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2017, 02:59:59 PM »
We plant salak in rows that are 5m apart and plants are 2.5m apart in the rows. 
we remove suckers on all salak generally and strip the fiber sheath from the female flower before it is receptive.  We take active male flowers and tap them on the receptive female flower and leave it there.  Melipona type bees will also pollinate salak and we are relying on them more with the s. affinis. At this point I only have about 8 flowering affinis and am trying to learn more about better production from them.  I have another 30 affinis plants coming along and have about 60 Javan salak in production.

The top two photos are s. affinis and the bottom is a harvest of affinis with salacca salacca.
Peter






sahai1

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Re: Salacca - Salak Tasting - Some clarification please.
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2017, 07:06:10 PM »
it looks like the Affinis fruit is not hairy/spiny on the fruit, skin is generally like thw Bali in texture?  scaly, but rubbing down the grain is generally smooth?

Hows the taste comparison with Java?  Are your affinis from Indonesia, malasia or other?

Your comcerns about fruit setting is the same as most Thai farmers, even professionals.   

I don't take my time when reading Thai, but I read 4 things which may help you. 
1. Thai farmers consider some males to be sterile, and they usually have a preferred 'stud' tree to colllect male flowers. 

2. One is put in a bottle and the bottle is placed over the female flower and shook.

3.  Since salacca is a "root ball" type of plant it's most productive with one mother and 2 keiki/suckers.  (just what i read)

4.   Some varities just set fruit better, its in the genes.

I am going to try and visit 2 Sumalee farms today, if learn anything else I'll share.

Have you ever made Jurinsee, enzyme fertilizer?  it's like vinegar.  chopped banana or fruit fermented with molasses?  This causes a huge increase in flowering and fruit setting.