Author Topic: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?  (Read 2868 times)

KarenRei

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Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« on: March 10, 2018, 07:00:24 PM »
Some comparison numbers: A modern apple plantation, properly managed, yields about 65t per hectare of saleable apples, which is rather high by fruit yields.  Peppers are 20t/ha.  Papayas are 40t/ha.  Mangosteen is 8,5t/ha.  Etc. The highest that comes to mind, as far as fruits go, is babaco, at just over 100t/ha (banana is also huge - 60t/ha in the high intensity fields, 120t/ha in experimental conditions).  Most fruits are somewhere in the 10-20t/ha range.

From this:

https://hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1993/V2-479.html

"Mature trees can reach 15 to 18 m in height and produce 900 kg (2,000 lb.) of fruit per year. Thompson, (1972) reported a tree of 'Chestnut' produced nearly 2,700 kg (6,000 lb.) of fruit in 1971 in Vista, California. Grafted trees remain smaller and develop a better canopy than seedlings."

Looking at pictures of large seedling white sapotes shows that they're moderately "vertical" trees, 1,5-2x as tall as they are wide (unlike smaller/grafted trees, which are broader).  Let's say that they're planted on a square grid spaced at a distance of 1,3x their height; that should keep things nice and sunny for each tree.  For a 16m tree that's 130,6m² per tree, or 76,5 trees per hectare.  900kg per tree is 69t per hectare - more than apples.  2700kg would be 207t/ha, which is just bonkers. 

Am I doing something wrong, or is white sapote crazy productive?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 04:41:57 AM by KarenRei »
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Ulfr

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2018, 07:17:45 PM »
Certainly a productive tree and I can imagine a single tree that might be that productive, but there is no way to manage and harvest a hectare of 16m trees, and that spacing would be tight/shady (if I am picturing that right in my head). A 16m tree is big...

Jackfruit would have to be up there for production.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 07:19:28 PM by Ulfr »

spaugh

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2018, 07:25:02 PM »
My buddy has one thats very old and it makes loads of fruits.  He never waters it and its up on a hill.  The fruit falls everywhere and makes a mess.  The tree would surely produce even more if he watered it occasionally.
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barath

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2018, 07:41:33 PM »
There's a giant White Sapote at Clausen Nursery in North San Diego county that's easily 40 feet tall and 30 feet in diameter, and carpets the ground in white sapotes.  No idea the actual yield but it's enormous.

barath

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2018, 07:45:13 PM »
I should add -- I've had the notion that White Sapote is probably the highest yield of calories per acre of any fruit crop that can be grown in California, and maybe other subtropical areas.

Though I imagine in the tropics Jackfruit and other crops would beat it.

OCchris1

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2018, 03:28:31 AM »
Do not plant near sidewalks...unless you love lawsuits. We have a few huge trees in my neighborhood that produce tons of fruit...one (smaller) 20 footer is planted next to a sidewalk and that sidewalk is nearly unusable for a good 15 ft. during peak season. Chris
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KarenRei

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2018, 04:06:11 AM »
Certainly a productive tree and I can imagine a single tree that might be that productive, but there is no way to manage and harvest a hectare of 16m trees, and that spacing would be tight/shady (if I am picturing that right in my head). A 16m tree is big...

Jackfruit would have to be up there for production.

Haha, not saying that would be a practical cultivation approach, by any means; I'm just trying to assess species productivity.  ;)   

I had to go in and plot it out and I think you may be right on spacing.  From re-looking at pictures and measuring, I'd say that no more than 1,5x taller than wide is more typical for old giants (young/grafted trees are closer to 1:1).  With that plotted out, 1,3x their height apart looks too tight; 1x looks a lot sunnier.  Could also envision it as rows, so 16mx10,6m trees, 10,6m between trees, 24m between rows - a giant scale equivalent of an orchard of 3x2m trees with 4,5m row spacing.  Works out to 35t/ha typical and 105t/ha record.  Even if you assume that it was in the middle of a field and nothing ever cast any shadow on it whatsoever, and you assume that a plantation of them spaced out as above loses 1/3rd of its productivity to shading... still very impressive figures.  And in commercial cultivation you expect a lot more careful optimization of feeding, watering, etc, which generally has a very significant impact on productivity.

2,7 tonnes of fruit... that's something like 18k individual fruits from one tree. Just mind blowing!

Don't think I've gotten to artocarpus species yet, but I strongly suspect you're right on that.

ED: Re, jackfruit:

http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/jas/article/download/52258/28457

"The whole population was divided into two subpopulations (high-yielding orchards and low-yielding orchards)
on the basis of yield: high-yielding orchards in which fruit yield were equal or exceeded 90 t/ha, and
low-yielding orchards in which fruit yield were lower than 60 t/ha. "

Those are figures from high intensity cultivation in China; I suspect you won't find numbers that good in the less high intensity cultivation in many other tropical locales. But still... some species just have great genetics.  If only mangosteen could take a cue from them...  ;)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 07:04:57 AM by KarenRei »
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KarenRei

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2018, 05:30:15 PM »
At risk of getting off topic, just ran into some impressive figures for Eugenia stipitata:

http://www.worldagroforestry.org/treedb/AFTPDFS/Eugenia_stipitata.PDF

20-26,4t.  Now, that would be pretty good for a lesser-developed fruit in normal circumstances.  But they weren't growing them in normal circumstances - that yield was for using them as an intercropping understory species between plantains and timber trees.  20-26,4t/ha *in the shade*  :)


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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 07:20:57 PM »
They are extremely productive in the right climate. Remember trees being totally loaded with fruits. Here in Hawaii they are not nearly as productive.
Oscar

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 09:04:02 PM »
They are extremely productive in the right climate. Remember trees being totally loaded with fruits. Here in Hawaii they are not nearly as productive.

What do you consider the right climate?

KarenRei

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 09:16:40 PM »
They are extremely productive in the right climate. Remember trees being totally loaded with fruits. Here in Hawaii they are not nearly as productive.

What do you consider the right climate?

Not to answer for him, but all of the info I find says it prefers a somewhat Mediterranean climate - lots of sun, not too much humidity, not excessive rain, doesn't really like "ultratropical" locations.  Loves California and its native Mexico in particular.  But you can still grow it in places like Florida (although not on limestone)

In general, it seems to rather like being treated like a citrus.  Which I guess makes sense, given that it's in the Rutaceae family.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 09:23:08 PM by KarenRei »
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fruitlovers

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 11:24:07 PM »
They are extremely productive in the right climate. Remember trees being totally loaded with fruits. Here in Hawaii they are not nearly as productive.

What do you consider the right climate?

Not to answer for him, but all of the info I find says it prefers a somewhat Mediterranean climate - lots of sun, not too much humidity, not excessive rain, doesn't really like "ultratropical" locations.  Loves California and its native Mexico in particular.  But you can still grow it in places like Florida (although not on limestone)

In general, it seems to rather like being treated like a citrus.  Which I guess makes sense, given that it's in the Rutaceae family.
Yes, what Karen said is correct. White sapote seems widely adapted. Will grow and fruit fine here in the tropics, but it is happier in drier areas, like Kona. Where it is very rainy the tree and fruits are more disease prone and bears more lightly. In cooler drier areas like San Diego it explodes with fruit. Don't know how many tons/hectare, but yes it is extremely productive. Reminds me of persimmons, which also got loaded with fruits in San Diego at similar time of year.
Oscar

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2018, 11:24:30 PM »
There are 2 primary sources I rely on for information, Purdue is one, UF is the other.  Here is what UF has to say about it.

"Although not extensively documented, white sapote trees are reported to be very productive. Trees generally flower from late fall to early summer. The harvest season varies with variety but generally is during the spring and summer."
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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2018, 11:34:56 PM »
I am surprised that this fruit never caught on commercially, because it fruits so well and can be really excellent eating. Also some types store very well. There was an attermpt to commercialize it i think duirng the 40's in the Fallbrook area of southern California. There are still some remnant orchards there.
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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2018, 09:10:07 AM »
Fruit and Spice has large productive trees on limestone. I doubt they get any attention either.

They are extremely productive in the right climate. Remember trees being totally loaded with fruits. Here in Hawaii they are not nearly as productive.

What do you consider the right climate?

Not to answer for him, but all of the info I find says it prefers a somewhat Mediterranean climate - lots of sun, not too much humidity, not excessive rain, doesn't really like "ultratropical" locations.  Loves California and its native Mexico in particular.  But you can still grow it in places like Florida (although not on limestone)

In general, it seems to rather like being treated like a citrus.  Which I guess makes sense, given that it's in the Rutaceae family.
-Josh

KarenRei

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2018, 09:46:29 AM »
Fruit and Spice has large productive trees on limestone. I doubt they get any attention either.

They are extremely productive in the right climate. Remember trees being totally loaded with fruits. Here in Hawaii they are not nearly as productive.

What do you consider the right climate?

Not to answer for him, but all of the info I find says it prefers a somewhat Mediterranean climate - lots of sun, not too much humidity, not excessive rain, doesn't really like "ultratropical" locations.  Loves California and its native Mexico in particular.  But you can still grow it in places like Florida (although not on limestone)

In general, it seems to rather like being treated like a citrus.  Which I guess makes sense, given that it's in the Rutaceae family.

Interesting, the pages I've seen say that it gets chloritic and production suffers on limestone.  I'll update my data to reflect this  :)
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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2018, 01:25:38 PM »
I am surprised that this fruit never caught on commercially, because it fruits so well and can be really excellent eating. Also some types store very well. There was an attermpt to commercialize it i think duirng the 40's in the Fallbrook area of southern California. There are still some remnant orchards there.

According to the lecturer farmers shipped WS by rail all the way to NY in the 1900s.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fyuUEPp1SVo

Very informative piece for the still somewhat clueless WS growers like myself. I'm surprised it only has had 9 views in over 3 months.

Jack, Nipomo

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Re: Is White Sapote really *this* productive?
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2018, 01:41:21 PM »
Here in central coast of CA one tree (Pike/Vernon) has been dropping fruits for a month.  The fruits cover the ground and there are more to come.  The tree is a giant and has been in the ground for over 40 years.  Flowering is beginning on many of my other white sapote trees but they still hold fruit.