Is all citrus extinct in palm beach county?

[horseshoe_bayou]

I’m throwing in the towel on citrus (surprised I lasted this long) unless there’s one of you out there that will give me reason to hope. Are there any citrus varieties still producing reliably that would make growing it worthwhile?

[Cookie Monster]

Citrus is still viable, especially in sandy soil like I assume you have. They just require a good bit of maintenance. Some tips:

 - Keep them very well fertilized
 - Try to acidify the soil with sulfur
 - Spray with fungicide on a regular basis
 - Use insecticide on a regular basis (eg, azidirachtin or if you don'd mind systemics, use imadacloprid)

Those trees you see for sale at Home Depot / Lowes are all treated with imidiclaprid and are very well fertilized, which is why they look so good for the first 6 - 12 months when you take them home.

[WGphil]

Brevard county was handing out bugs that feed on the bugs that cause it. 

Limes and lemons are being commercially  planted but little else

They can outrun greening by giving you crops before it gets it.

My key lime had it bad and I stumped it below all the damage

It’s a seedling that grew back as good as new

Got plenty of Dancy tangerines to boot

I don’t use any pesticides in my yard

[Coach62]

Citrus is still viable, especially in sandy soil like I assume you have. They just require a good bit of maintenance. Some tips:

 - Keep them very well fertilized
 - Try to acidify the soil with sulfur
 - Spray with fungicide on a regular basis
 - Use insecticide on a regular basis (eg, azidirachtin or if you don'd mind systemics, use imadacloprid)

Those trees you see for sale at Home Depot / Lowes are all treated with imidiclaprid and are very well fertilized, which is why they look so good for the first 6 - 12 months when you take them home.

I swore I’d never do it, but I finally admitted defeat and started using the systemic you mentioned. My trees were being absolutely decimated by leaf miners. That got them under control. Trees are doing much better now, but I am very worried the systemic might kill my bees next spring after the citrus bloom.

[Mark in Texas]

I highly recommend getting certified disease free wood from the TX Aggies, Weslaco....and it aint just HLB you need to worry about, it's stuff like tristeza and about a dozen other diseases.  Since March I've done 37 citrus grafts and recently got 40 buds from the Aggie budwood program and shared some of it with 2 other growers.   http://www.tamuk.edu/Citrus_Center/Budwood%20Certification%20Program.html

From Mark VanNess, program manager, via an email:

"One of the biggest threats to the citrus industry is the spread of disease by movement of plants or receiving budwood from an unknown, uncertified source.  We spend over $40,000 annually in an extensive testing program for our Foundation and Scion source trees.  All trees are individually tested for Huanglongbing (Citrus greening) , Citrus tristeza virus, Citrus Tatter Leaf virus, Citrus leaf blotch virus, Citrus psorosis virus, Citrus exocortis viroid, Hop stunt viroid, and Citrus dwarfing viroid.  Therefore I again encourage you and others to always order from our program.  It will be well worth the cost to ensure that you are receiving clean, pathogen-free, true-to-type citrus budwood."



My 4 cocktail trees now have these oranges - Hamlin, Marrs, Calamondin, Olinda Valencia and the bloods - Moro and Tarocco.  Lemons - Meyer, Pomona seedless (cold hardy into the teens FWIW).  Limes - key, limequat  (cold hardy substitute) and Persian.

And don't forget the clothespins when doing T-buds. 



Trust me, that's the easiest way to really clamp down to insure good cambium contact on wood that's up to 1/2" in girth.  Beats the helluva rubber bands and vinyl tape.  The Buddy Tape helps cushion any epidermal tissue damage. I remove them after 2 weeks.

[Mark in Texas]

I swore I’d never do it, but I finally admitted defeat and started using the systemic you mentioned. My trees were being absolutely decimated by leaf miners. That got them under control. Trees are doing much better now, but I am very worried the systemic might kill my bees next spring after the citrus bloom.

"Imidacloprid kills bees"....the myth that just won't die.  Here's a VERY intensive study done in California on that systemic.  I use it and have thousands of bees.    I sure as hell want and will protect our bee population.  Page 52.

http://citrusresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/Winter2014.pdf

[Coach62]

I swore I’d never do it, but I finally admitted defeat and started using the systemic you mentioned. My trees were being absolutely decimated by leaf miners. That got them under control. Trees are doing much better now, but I am very worried the systemic might kill my bees next spring after the citrus bloom.

"Imidacloprid kills bees"....the myth that just won't die.  Here's a VERY intensive study done in California on that systemic.  I use it and have thousands of bees.    I sure as hell want and will protect our bee population.  Page 52.

http://citrusresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/Winter2014.pdf

Thank you Mark, that makes me feel much better.  I thought it was a stretch, but some states (I think mainly in the NE) have actually outlawed its use to protect bees.

Still, would you agree that it's best applied AFTER the bloom just to be safe, or is the consensus is that it doesn't matter?  My first spring leaf flush is always virtually 100% destroyed, it is really stunting my trees. 

[Cookie Monster]

Interesting read. They did note that sandier soils permit greater uptake and thus greater concentration of residues. Here in FL, we have sandy soil, and our high rainfall would probably contribute to greater uptake. But it looks like the key is timing -- applying right after bloom.

So, are basically all the non-organic citrus growers using imidacloprid?

I swore I’d never do it, but I finally admitted defeat and started using the systemic you mentioned. My trees were being absolutely decimated by leaf miners. That got them under control. Trees are doing much better now, but I am very worried the systemic might kill my bees next spring after the citrus bloom.

"Imidacloprid kills bees"....the myth that just won't die.  Here's a VERY intensive study done in California on that systemic.  I use it and have thousands of bees.    I sure as hell want and will protect our bee population.  Page 52.

http://citrusresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/Winter2014.pdf

[Coach62]

Jeff, I can't say for sure, but I do believe that may be the case.  Why would you perform regular applications of something else, when once a year application of this is highly effective?  Maybe I'm rationalizing here, but the fact that it is a neonicotinoid makes me feel a bit better, I do believe that is a fairly safe substance.  Here, to avoid going cross-eyed reading the entire article, here is the bottom line, cut and pasted.

NOTE: NOEL means No Observable Effects Limits, which in this case is 20 ppb.

Putting The Data Into Context
Imidacloprid is critical to the management of the Asian citrus psyllid
in California citrus, and its use will likely increase as the number
of insect detections on commercial citrus increases. The correct
timing of treatments will be essential to provide protection to
the youngest flush on the trees, which are important for psyllid
feeding and development. But the timing of treatments may also
impact the levels of imidacloprid in nectar, even if treatments are
applied several months in advance of the bloom.
Currently, imidacloprid treatments are not permitted during
bloom or when honeybees are actively foraging within the grove.
The data reported here are measurements of residues in nectar
sampled from trees treated at least six months before bloom. The
data clearly show that residues at or above the NOEL are a rare
event.
During our monitoring program, there were two sets of data in
which the NOEL was reached, both from trees that were treated
during late August, September or October. At Lindcove Table 2,
one of the ten samples had a reading close to the NOEL, while the
remaining nine samples, including a second sample from within
the same block that registered the high reading, were four-fold
lower. In Hemet Table 6, the data were means for up to 10 samples,
indicating that the residues were generally high within those
trees.
Importantly, we have shown that imidacloprid residues do not
accumulate from year to year, even when toxic imidacloprid
metabolites are factored into residue measurements. This result
means that successive years of applications do not appear to have
an additive effect on the total residues. Rather, it is the timing of
the most recent application that will govern what residues are
present in the nectar. It is very difficult to quantify the relationship
Table 5. Results of imidacloprid, 5-OH imidacloprid and imidacloprid olefin residue analysis of citrus nectar collected from Valencia orange
trees at Agricultural Operations, University of California Riverside (Riverside County) during April 2011. Trees were treated in October 2010.
Table 6. Residues of imidacloprid, 5-hydroxy imidacloprid and imidacloprid-olefin in nectar collected from grapefruit trees in Hemet during
April 2010 and April 2011 after two and three years of treatment, respectively. Each value represents the mean for 7-10 samples for each
treatment.
58 Citrograph Magazine | Winter 2014
between the proximity of treatment timing in relation to bloom
and the likelihood that NOEL levels of imidacloprid will occur in
the nectar. The soil type has a major influence on this, with lighter,
sandier soils permitting greater uptake and, therefore, increasing
the risk to the nectar.
Our data suggest that Fall treatments of imidacloprid, particularly
those on sandier soils (as in Hemet), present a greater risk of
the nectar having residues at NOEL levels during the subsequent
bloom. As the soil changes towards a more loamy texture, there is
less likelihood that the NOEL levels will be reached, but there may
be instances when this occurs.
To minimize the risk of residues reaching the NOEL, treatments
should be made after bloom and before the fall, preferably during
the summer months of June-August (see the data for Ventura and
Temecula). This is opportune treatment timing for controlling ACP
during fall flush periods. If applications of imidacloprid are made
between June and August, then growers will benefit from better
targeting of ACP populations during the fall flush (and during the
summer months, due to more favorable uptake conditions) and
will also lessen the risk of treatment impacts on honeybees during
the following spring.

[Coach62]

Interesting read. They did note that sandier soils permit greater uptake and thus greater concentration of residues. Here in FL, we have sandy soil, and our high rainfall would probably contribute to greater uptake. But it looks like the key is timing -- applying right after bloom.

So, are basically all the non-organic citrus growers using imidacloprid?

"Imidacloprid kills bees"....the myth that just won't die.  Here's a VERY intensive study done in California on that systemic.  I use it and have thousands of bees.    I sure as hell want and will protect our bee population.  Page 52.

[/quote]
[/quote]

This is from Wikipedia:

 Imidacloprid is the most widely used insecticide in the world.[2] Compared to organophosphate and carbamate insecticides, neonicotinoids cause less toxicity in birds and mammals than insects. Some breakdown products are also toxic to insects.[3]

Neonicotinoid use has been linked in a range of studies to adverse ecological effects, including honey-bee colony collapse disorder (CCD) and loss of birds due to a reduction in insect populations; however, the findings have been conflicting, and thus controversial.[4] In 2013, the European Union and a few non EU countries restricted the use of certain neonicotinoids;[5][6][7] in 2018, the EU banned the three main neonicotinoids (clothianidin, imidacloprid and thiamethoxam) for all outdoor uses.[8][9] Several states in the United States have also restricted usage of neonicotinoids out of concern for pollinators and bees.[10]

Imidacloprid is effective against sucking insects, some chewing insects, soil insects and fleas on domestic animals.[16] It is systemic with particular efficacy against sucking insects and has a long residual activity. Imidacloprid can be added to the water used to irrigate plants. Controlled release formulations of imidacloprid take 2–10 days to release 50% of imidacloprid in water.[17] It is applied against soil pests, seed, timber and animal pests as well as foliar treatments.

As of 2013 neonicotinoids have been used In the U.S. on about 95 percent of corn and canola crops, the majority of cotton, sorghum, and sugar beets and about half of all soybeans. They have been used on the vast majority of fruit and vegetables, including apples, cherries, peaches, oranges, berries, leafy greens, tomatoes, and potatoes, to cereal grains, rice, nuts, and wine grapes.[18] Imidacloprid is possibly the most widely used insecticide, both within the neonicotinoids and in the worldwide market.

[palmcity]

I'm more concerned with the possibility of possible future reproduction of humans and possible offspring changes in 3-4 etc. generations. Not much has been done to study this due to humans and lawsuits. Some studies have been done on female rats etc. ( Imidacloprid on Reproduction of Female Albino Rats).

I personally warn any of my children if I have used it on any of my fruit trees etc. (presently have not used it in the past year and a half. Last use before that was on a citrus tree and avocado tree infected but decided it was not worth the repeated application/fertilizer/ effort etc. to keep those two going and they have since ceased to exist with neglect. It was much easier to just plant two more mango trees.

I know it is in most produce at the supermarket but I still want to lower the consumption in my offspring that may be desiring to reproduce in the future since long long term studies are not done on it for human offspring as far as I know and should something happen wrong to a grandchild, I would like to think I had no chance of increasing that chance of occurrence.

I have the same opinion of spraying many herbicides, insecticides, etc. around the well. Avoiding that area with anything other than glyphosate.

[Coach62]

I think we all generally agree to one degree or another.  I am generally opposed to the use of any pesticides or herbicides, including glycophosphates.  In this case, I really had no other option, my trees were being absolutely devastated, even decimated by leaf miners. 

I had purchased parasitic wasps, as well as other parasitic insects (they are VERY expensive) and will continue to do so.  I do believe that nicotinoids have minimal negative effects on mammals.  Look at how many people smoked for decades and survived the nicotine (just from the tar and lung damage from smoking got them). 

If I can get them under control naturally, I will.  I hope to use the systemic insecticide for only one more season.

[Mark in Texas]

Thank you Mark, that makes me feel much better.  I thought it was a stretch, but some states (I think mainly in the NE) have actually outlawed its use to protect bees.

Politics

Still, would you agree that it's best applied AFTER the bloom just to be safe, or is the consensus is that it doesn't matter?  My first spring leaf flush is always virtually 100% destroyed, it is really stunting my trees.

In the study they actually fed the bees sugar water with a high dose of the stuff.  Having said that, yes, I err on the "what if" side and apply a pretty strong dose via a soil drench after bloom. 

Just got rid of a nasty attack by mites on all my citrus trees which is normal when the heat and drought ramp up in Texas.  Took two hits of Forbid 4F to nail them.  That stuff is the bees knees when it comes to mite control, all families, all stages of development.  Being a translaminar pesticide helps too.

[Mark in Texas]

So, are basically all the non-organic citrus growers using imidacloprid?

I can only assume they are.  I know "Mr. Texas" aka Philip Sauber near Houston does.  I think he's probably grown every citrus variety known to man, him and his good friend John Panzerrella too.  http://www.panzarellacitrus.com/   

Lots of "what iffing" and feelings before facts going on here regarding the use of "chemicals".   

[Cookie Monster]

I was reading that imidcloprid might be effective on cuban may beetle. My trees on the property line are getting hit really badly. I don't have grass on my lot (which what the beetle grubs feed on), but all of my neighbors do. I'm going to give ImidaPro 4SC a shot.

[Coach62]

I was reading that imidcloprid might be effective on cuban may beetle. My trees on the property line are getting hit really badly. I don't have grass on my lot (which what the beetle grubs feed on), but all of my neighbors do. I'm going to give ImidaPro 4SC a shot.

Why not?  My canistel was getting hit hard by something so I just treated it, it won’t fruit for at least another year anyway.  Just keep in mind that there’s no knock down as with sprays. It takes a little while to work sine it has to go thru the whole uptake process. 

[Cookie Monster]

Even if the canistel were fruiting, I don't think consuming the fruit is an issue. I suspect a lot of the produce we buy for consumption has imidcloprid in it.

Those cuban may beetles are hard to knock down. You might kill a few hundred one night, but then the next night they are back in full force.

I was reading that imidcloprid might be effective on cuban may beetle. My trees on the property line are getting hit really badly. I don't have grass on my lot (which what the beetle grubs feed on), but all of my neighbors do. I'm going to give ImidaPro 4SC a shot.

Why not?  My canistel was getting hit hard by something so I just treated it, it won’t fruit for at least another year anyway.  Just keep in mind that there’s no knock down as with sprays. It takes a little while to work sine it has to go thru the whole uptake process.

[Coach62]

Even if the canistel were fruiting, I don't think consuming the fruit is an issue. I suspect a lot of the produce we buy for consumption has imidcloprid in it.

Those cuban may beetles are hard to knock down. You might kill a few hundred one night, but then the next night they are back in full force.

I was reading that imidcloprid might be effective on cuban may beetle. My trees on the property line are getting hit really badly. I don't have grass on my lot (which what the beetle grubs feed on), but all of my neighbors do. I'm going to give ImidaPro 4SC a shot.

 
Why not?  My canistel was getting hit hard by something so I just treated it, it won’t fruit for at least another year anyway.  Just keep in mind that there’s no knock down as with sprays. It takes a little while to work since it has to go thru the whole uptake process.

I apply it two ways.  One is just mix it in a bucket, then I have another bucket with holes drilled in the bottom, I pour it into the "holy bucket" to evenly distribute it.

The other way, if you have several trees is the way to go IMHO.  I use one of those sprayers where you can adjust the mixture rate in oz's per gallon.  I then "calibrate it" by counting how many Mississippi's it takes to flow a gallon into a bucket. 

So obviously, if I set it to 1.5oz/gallon, and it takes 5 Mississippi's to flow a gallon - 5 Mississippi's = 1.5 ounces.  I do like this way because it's very quick, and you can get very even distribution.

[Mark in Texas]

This is what I buy and is enough to provide protection for an entire field of citrus for a year or so and it's "dirt cheap".  The U.S. vineyard industry has been saved from the deadly Pierce's Disease thanks to imidacloprid.  Can only speak for Texas where PD is no longer a threat.  I apply 2 drenches to my vineyard every year to take care of the host, sharpshooters.  https://www.amazon.com/contains-Imidacloprid-Termiticide-Insecticide-ingredient/dp/B011S22ANI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536328918&sr=8-1&keywords=adonis+wsp

[Cookie Monster]

Not bad. Didn't realize that one was registered for fruit trees.

This is what I buy and is enough to provide protection for an entire field of citrus for a year or so and it's "dirt cheap".  The U.S. vineyard industry has been saved from the deadly Pierce's Disease thanks to imidacloprid.  Can only speak for Texas where PD is no longer a threat.  I apply 2 drenches to my vineyard every year to take care of the host, sharpshooters.  https://www.amazon.com/contains-Imidacloprid-Termiticide-Insecticide-ingredient/dp/B011S22ANI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536328918&sr=8-1&keywords=adonis+wsp

[Mark in Texas]

Not bad. Didn't realize that one was registered for fruit trees.

This is what I buy and is enough to provide protection for an entire field of citrus for a year or so and it's "dirt cheap".  The U.S. vineyard industry has been saved from the deadly Pierce's Disease thanks to imidacloprid.  Can only speak for Texas where PD is no longer a threat.  I apply 2 drenches to my vineyard every year to take care of the host, sharpshooters.  https://www.amazon.com/contains-Imidacloprid-Termiticide-Insecticide-ingredient/dp/B011S22ANI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536328918&sr=8-1&keywords=adonis+wsp

Yeah, somewhere on the label is for grapes and the amount is unreal, something like a low rate of an oz or two in 200 gals. as a spray.   Aggie seminar pointed out that 10 PPB repels sharpshooters.

[WGphil]

I grow without pesticides but this season I used sulfer for the first time on my lemon zest

I do use oil spray but been awhile

Diversity of planting’s helps

This year has been a banner year for production and taste

This Dancy was ate up with greening a couple seasons ago but it is doing a lot of better now