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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Kuganskaya blooming

I may be completely wrong about this, but I believe the fragrange of the blossoms smells a little different from those of Orange quince. It smells just a little bit in the direction of how pear blossoms smell (which don't really smell the best but it's a distinctive smell). This is complete conjecture here but this observation would support a theory that some of these Russian quinces may have been brought about through interspecies hybridization (maybe not the immediate prior generation but a few generations back).

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: What citrus is this?
« on: April 24, 2018, 10:46:26 PM »
Does the tree appear to have been grafted? Do citrus grow wild easily where you are? It's possible you may have some sort of hybrid (which could be a unique new variety).

Is it possible it could be Calamondin? If you're in a more tropical climate the skin would remain green.


I'd also encorage you to look into less common rarer varieties for many different fruits, particularly plum and gooseberry. There can be a big difference between different varieties, and having a rare variety can be sort of similar to having an exotic species.

I have just looked up the Chinese Bayberry and all sites I've come across mention it only being cold-hardy down to zone 10?

It can definitely grow in zone 9, and probably in zone 8.

Read the post here:
Myrica Rubra, page 2

Myrica rubra's common names include Yangmei in China, Yamamomo in Japan, Red Bayberry, Chinese Bayberry, and Yumberry.  According to the CRFG Fruit Gardener March & April 2008 issue, the fruit is called yang-mei in China, which means "poplar-plum".  A garden products importer from Indiana named Charles Stenftenagel was visiting a friend in Shanghai who bottled Myrica rubra juice.  The way the people pronounced yang-mei in their dialect was "yang-mee", which Mr. Stenftenagel thought sounded like "yummy" and in 2003 they started calling it "Yumberry" because they though that would be a catchy name to help them commercialize it.

The Chinese have harvested yang-mei from the wild for 7000 years and cultivated the trees for at least 2000 years.  It is a very popular fruit in China, which has 865,000 acres in production.  For comparison, the United States has about 432,000 acres of apples, about 856,000 of citrus trees, and 1,044,000 of grapes, the only American fruit crop with greater acreage.

It is a dioecious tree with male and female flowers on separate plants.  However some female trees will produce male flowers.  The tree can grow in poor soils because of its ability to fix nitrogen.  It prefers acid soil and enjoys a similar climatic range as citrus.  It is said that it is not grown in Hawaii because it does require a bit of chill, although in China there is a wide range of adaptation, including tropical varieties on Hainan, a large island in the south.  Recommended for Zones 8-10, can tolerate temperatures down to 16F.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: cold hardy Citrus for zone 7b?
« on: April 23, 2018, 09:35:37 PM »
This is what Brite Leaf Citrus Nursery says:

"If you live in USDA Hardiness Zone 8, you may be able to, depending on your location and the variety you choose, plant your citrus tree outside. However, you will need to protect your tree from frost and freezing during extreme cold periods.
If you live in USDA Zone 7 or North, for survival of your tree, we strongly recommend you plant in a movable container which will allow you to move your citrus tree indoors during the winter."

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: An unplanned visit to Mimosa Anaheim.
« on: April 23, 2018, 08:34:52 PM »
It's a cool nursery with a lot of space to explore, and the Vietnamese man who was working there was very nice, even though his English wasn't good. Their prices are a little high, but all their plants are large size.

They have pretty good selection of variety too. If you have lots of money to spend and want to buy a tropical fruit tree that's already very large in size, this may be the place to go.

As for the high prices, keep in mind the rent for the land space is probably very high and these nurseries are growing their plants on-site, and many of these plants are not the fastest growing, so take a lot of time investment to grow and propagate. A lot of other long-time nurseries in the region have gone out of business because the land underneath them became too valuable.

Anyway, I think the Vietnamese owner puts a lot of care into the trees.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Clemyuz 3-3, ten degree tangerine
« on: April 23, 2018, 07:34:54 PM »
Here it is in the ground

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Clamondin
« on: April 23, 2018, 03:26:12 AM »
Here's a kumquat, mandarinquat, and calamondin grown from seed:

(calamondin is the one in back, mandarinquat in front)

Here's another interesting study and DNA marker analysis:

Citrus Genetic Resources Grown on the Ryukyu Islands, Japan
Yamamoto Yasashi, Kagoshima University

It shows pictures of all these obscure citrus too.

Apparently kunenbo groups more closely with sour orange and pumelo, while Shikuwasa groups more closely with Tachibana, while yuzu and Ichang papeda group separately.

C. Tachibana may possibly be native to Southern Japan, Okinawa and Taiwan, and it appears to be very closely related to C. reticula, to the point it could possibly be regarded as a subspecies of C. reticula.
(Genomics of the origin and evolution of Citrus Guohong albert Wu, Javier Terol)
However, this fact does not make it show up as C. reticula in the DNA marker analysis inferring ancestry, so it's clearly not just a mandarin hybrid (i.e. it shows up as only 1% C. reticula in DNA ancestry)

Another study indicated Shikuwasa is probabably a hybrid of another unidentified mystery parent with Tachibana, or possibly some sort of backross with Tachibana.

A very misleading post, do not understand why you are mixing real scientific results with your unbased  prophetic revelations.
I know there is a lot of information presented and being discussed here, but what are a few of the main things you find misleading about it?

I was just trying to condense a long study into an easy to read summary. And adding a little informed commentary to try to help facts make more sense.

To read the article is enough to understand.
It is good to have a plain-text version of this information. These downloadable pdf's have a way of becoming unavailable over time.

According to the flow graph in the first study, they are inferring that kishu is one of the parents of natsudaidai, along with another mystery parent. Apparently kunenbo-A originated from a cross from kishu and another mystery parent, while kunenbo-B originated from a cross between sour orange and a different mystery parent. It would appear then that kunenbo A and B are not related, if this is correct. The flow chart also indicates that Kabosu resulted from a cross between Yuzu and kunenbo-A.

The kunenbo-A corresponds to the 35% C. maxima, 65% C. reticula
while the kunenbo-B corresponds to the 30% C. reticula, 65% C. medica, 5% C. maxima

It appears then that the "C. medica" here might actually indeed be C. medica (rather than C. ichangensis) if it's coming from the sour orange parent. (or possibly a mix of C. medica and C. ichangensis, since the other mystery parent is unnamed)

I recently found an interesting DNA study done in Japan that could help provide more insight into the very far back origins of several cold-hardy Japanese citrus varieties.

Some things to bear in mind, this genetic marker analysis is not exactly indicative of precise ancestry percentages. It is only looking at certain markers, so this is only going to give us a very rough idea of the probable ancestry.

Apparently citron (C. medica) is nearly identical to Ichang papeda (C. ichangensis) in the DNA marker analysis, such that the study did not bother to differentiate them.
This means that wherever you see "C. medica" in the ancestry of these cold-hardy Japanese citrus varieties it is actually C. ichangensis.

The following percentages are not exact, they are rough estimates I copied from a visual graph:

C. ichangensis: 91.5% C. medica, 8% C. maxima, 0.5% reticula
Ichang lemon: 60% C. medica, 40% C. maxima
Yuzu: 99% C. medica, 1% C. reticula
Hyuganatsu: 26% C. reticula, 40% C. medica, 34% C. maxima
Kunenbo: 30% C. reticula, 65% C. medica, 5% C. maxima
Kunenbo (II) : 35% C. maxima, 65% C. reticula
Sudachi: 33% C. reticula, 67% C. medica
Kabuchi 33% C. reticula, 51% C. medica, 19% C. maxima
Kabosu: 34% C. reticula, 58% C. medica, 8% C. maxima
Kinkoji: 36% C. reticula, 0.5% C. medica, 63.5% C. maxima
Shiikuwassha 44% C. reticula, 56% C. medica
Keraji: 50% C. reticula, 16% C. maxima, 34% C. medica
Natsudaidai 52% C. reticula, 0.5% C. medica, 47.5% C. maxima
Satsuma: 25% C. maxima, 75% C. reticula
Hirado Buntan: 100% C. maxima

Hybrid Origins of Citrus Varieties Inferred from DNA Marker Analysis of Nuclear and Organelle Genomes,
Shimizu T, Kitajima A.

Some thoughts.

Yuzu is believed to share about half-and-half ancestry from C. reticula and C. ichangensis (or possibly even an earlier papeda species forerunner of C. ichangensis), so the fact that C. reticula barely showed up in the genetic analysis is a clear example of how imprecise the ancestry results of such an analysis are.
Yuzu probably wasn't just a simple cross of C. ichangensis with C. reticula; there probably had to be a few generations sexual propagation for the C. reticula gene markers to get bred out.

Apparently there are two very different forms of kunenbo, one with C. ichangensis ancestry, the other without. It looks like Kinkoji doesn't have any recent C. ichangensis ancestors, so it probably didn't descend from the kunenbo type in the study that showed C. ichangensis ancestry. The same is probably true of Satsuma as well.

Natsudaidai apparently doesn't have any close connection to Yuzu.
(Nansho-daidai I believe is Tiwanica lemon)

The overall ancestry composition in the graph is consistent with the theory that Hyuganatsu resulted from buntan getting pollinated by yuzu. However, if you look at the flow chart, the study inferred that Tachibana-B was one of the parents of Hyuganatsu. The graph shows Tachibana-B to be about 31% C. reticula, 69% "C. medica" (remember represents C. ichangensis here), so it may be that buntan (C. maxima) was pollinated by Tachibana-B, rather than yuzu. Although with that high a percentage of C. ichangensis I suspect Tachibana-B originated from a yuzu cross.

And the study does confirm the leading theory that Ichang lemon is a hybrid between C. ichangensis and C. maxima (though still doesn't prove whether it was a simple cross).

Keraji displays a surprisingly high percentage of C. ichangensis. It was my understanding that keraji originated, over a progression, from a triple backcross of Kunenbo with Shiikuwasha (C. depressa). It's possible that the C. ichangensis genes were positively selected for over time, since those genes conferred cold hardiness.

This isn't from this study but is just some things I've been able to put together from other studies, that may help you make some more sense of those varieties in that list:

Shiikuwasha x kunenbo = kabuchi; kabuchi x kunenbo = kikaimikan; kikaimikan x kunenbo = keraji
kishu x kunenbo = Satsuma; buntan x kunenbo = kinkoji ( kinkoji = Bloomsweet)
kabosu and sudachi are almost certainly hybrids from yuzu

Another DNA marker analysis done in China did not seem to show a connection between Changsha mandarin and C. ichangensis, which is interesting because the fruits/seeds of Changsha mandarin appear very morphologically similar to clementine-yuzu hybrid. The analysis did suggest Changsha mandarin might have just a little C. maxima ancestry though (maybe 15%)
Genomics of the origin and evolution of Citrus, Guohong Albert Wu, Javier Terol

Of course it's also possible the gene markers could have been completely bred out over numerous suceeding generations, since Changsha mandarin originated from growing in the wild.

A note about availability of these varieties in the U.S.
Most of these varieties on this list are fairly available to those in the U.S. The main exceptions are Kunenbo and Hyuganatsu.
Kabosu can be harder to find. Shikuwasa and Keraji seem to be fairly prevelent in Georgia and North Carolina, but I don't believe they can be found in the rest of the country. (Shikuwasa is sometimes written shikwasa, different spellings) C. ichangensis used to be more popular, but currently I don't think it is available from any mail order nurseries. It can still be found in Europe. Bloomsweet was introduced into the U.S. from Texas, so can be found in that part of the country.

Hyuganatsu isn't too difficult to get in Japan, it is sometimes sold as a seasonal specialty fruit. (I don't know whether it actually displays any exceptional cold hardiness traits) Kunenbo used to be the popular fruit in Japan hundreds of years ago before it was replaced by what is today called Satsuma. It's not widely available any longer but can still be found in some botanical and historical collections.
The UCR collection in California supposedly has one but apparently from the descriptions the type they have is not the delicious tasting one that exists in Japan, and in any case it's not available to the public.

Hirado Buntan isn't really that cold hardy but is more cold tolerant than other pomelos.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: The Fragrance of Citrus in Bloom
« on: April 19, 2018, 04:31:29 PM »
Pollination  of Miaygawa by poncirus  in this case was used in order to identify and discard possible zygotic hybrids (trifoliates).
Too bad they couldn't have sent the seedling plants to someone else to grow them and evaluate their cold hardiness and fruit quality.

I read about all these interesting experiments where researchers took the time to make interesting hybridizations, but they weren't evaluating the offspring past the seedling stage so they just tossed them all out. Surely there would have been other people interested in those seedlings.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Clemyuz 3-3, ten degree tangerine
« on: April 19, 2018, 12:55:05 AM »
It's a lot less vigorous growing than it's parent yuzu. I had a small plant inside a greenhouse, and we had an extremely mild Winter, and the leaves still got trashed. I mean they looked really bad, even though most of them did not fall off. That's not necessarily an indication of its cold hardiness though. I noticed some cold hardy citrus varieties are quick to drop leaves at the slightest bit of cold, and it's probably a protection strategy, to go into dormancy to avoid possible damage if temperatures get colder later.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: The Fragrance of Citrus in Bloom
« on: April 19, 2018, 12:44:48 AM »
It's also possible it could have been a zygotic seedling as a result of self-pollination and sexual recombination.
Not that it matters.

I remember reading one study that found the seeds in Satsuma were 90 percent nucellar. (Frost and Soost, 1968 )
That means there's a moderately small probability you could get a zygotic seed.

Maybe the varieties of quince (particularly Russian) that are better for eating out of hand?

Some rare cold hardy citrus varieties can survive where you are.

Have you considered Chinese Bayberry (Myrica rubra) or che fruit (Maclura tricuspidata) ?
The Osage Orange is an interesting ornamental (despite the name, not citrus).

There are some Russian varieties of pomegranate that can survive, but where you are the fruits probably won't get very ripe or sweet.

There are also of course persimmons and Asian pears, which should have no problem, although they are not really all that uncommon.

How about lingonberries or cloudberries (Rubus chamaemorus), if you're going to look to the far North for something exotic. On that note, how about Brandywine raspberry, it's a hybrid between red raspberry and black raspberries native to North America. They have a somewhat blackberry-like taste and don't tend to spread out of bounds like regular raspberries.

Probably the most essential is maintaining humidity and making sure it doesn't get too hot and keeping it out of direct sunlight. Many have success wrapping it with a plastic bag to hold the humidity. There also needs to constantly be a little bit of moisture and it can't dry out. Some citrus species are more vigorous and probably have a better chance of rooting. Oranges would probably be the least vigorous.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Are Loquats in Zone 7a possible?
« on: April 14, 2018, 07:48:23 PM »
I don't know if this helps but I know it can grow it Portland and urban areas of Seattle, although it doesn't grow so well. That would be zone 8b.

You might be interested in this blog. She planted a small loquat plant in Gloucester, Massachusetts. It died to the ground over the Winter so she decided to dig it up and replant it in a spot more sheltered from the wind. To her surprise it kept growing and got big. It hasn't born fruit.

Someone in zone 7b Alabama wrote that they had several loquats and that they had been doing great, but that climate zone has more heat and a longer growing season than more northerly zone 7 areas.

Someone in the U.K. observed that loquats typically begin fruiting in the seventh year. Someone else in Vancouver, Canada, said they had a loquat tree in the ground for 5 years, it was 6 feet tall, but it hadn't produced fruit yet.

Loquat trees typically bloom in late fall or winter, so the general consensus seems to be if you are in a colder climate not to expect fruit.
Someone else in zone 8b Alabama commented that when the Winter temperature went down to 19F one year none of fruits survived, but the leaves were not damaged.

Some people just want to grow loquat to be able to know what the fresh fruits taste like. In my opinion, the taste is nothing really all that exotic or wonderful. Compared to a good apple variety fresh off the tree you're not really missing anything. (Although the flavor is not really the same as apple)

My biggest is in the 3 ft range.  It was lighted by only a couple of light weight florescent bulbs, and it was doing great.  I now have moved it to a grow tent with 400w leds.  It is still growing but I am getting chlorosis in the new growth. I am thinking it is not getting the nutrients that it needs.  I'm thinking of trying chemical ferts to give it a boost.  Anyone use chemical ferts on mangosteen?  Or should I just dial back the light? I have used foliage pro exclusively on it, it seems to like it. Maybe just a higher dose of that. More foliar is definitely in order.

The temperature inside may not be consistently warm enough. They grew much better for me after I installed a thermostat and mini 250 Watt space heater to maintain the temperature between 77-79.
Before that the heat was coming mainly just from the lighting and was getting down to 63 at night. The plants seemed not to be putting out much growth or to be very slowly declining. I also found that the young plants (5 inches tall) do not seem to handle excessive light well. Bear in mind that there was plenty of humidity here and this was LED lighting. Yet the leaves started appearing a little bit bleached and unhealthy until I toned down the light level.

Another lesson learned is that heat pads did not end up working out well because they caused the soil in containers to dry out at a much faster rate. That's what happens when something is a warmer temperature than the ambient surrounding air.

This is in WA state:

"mangosteen and lychee, growing in warm enclosure"

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Fruit ID: lilly pilly?
« on: April 11, 2018, 06:18:18 PM »
It looks like it could be, but you will need a better picture (especially the undersides of the fruits) for us to be sure.
Although lilly pilly is closely related to wax apple, I wouldn't eat too many of them, they are known to cause diarrhea.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: April 10, 2018, 03:23:51 AM »

(Dunstan citrumelo x Satsuma mandarin) x (Ichang papeda x Satsuma mandarin)

(trifoliate x Satsuma mandarin) x Orange Frost mandarin

(trifoliate x Bloomsweet) x ((yuzu x tangelo) x Changsha mandarin)

((trifoliate x mandarin) x Orange Frost mandarin) x ((trifoliate x pomelo) x Ichang lemon)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: April 09, 2018, 10:33:51 PM »
For zone 6 I'm thinking you are probably going to have to think about combining multiple strategies, not just hybridization, if you want something very edible.
You might, for example, be able to breed something that can survive outside in a warm spot, up against a south facing wall, near water and large rocks to help reflect/absorb/retain heat, sheltered from wind, etc. (basically going out of your way to create a warm microclimate) and possibly covered with insulation during the Winter on top of that. It is possible, but I don't think it's going to be so simple.

One advantage, in Kansas you have clear skies so that means availability of direct sunlight throughout the Winter. That makes it easy to manipulate this sunlight through the use of microclimate techniques to warm the surroundings.

Normal citrus wouldn't be able to survive in this situation, but much more cold hardy varieties may.

Many kinds of passiflora (passion flower vine) can grow just fine where you're at, but be sure to research the variety. If anything the problem may be making sure they get enough water in the Summer.
Probably the first year in the ground is the most difficult and if the vine is not healthy, the less cold hardy ones may not survive even a mild Winter. Even the more sensitive varieties, I'm guessing if you grow them they will only suffer minor damage, some years more than others.

Only downside of multi graft is that it may take some extra maintenance (skillful pruning) to make sure the base tree doesn't overgrow any of the graft varieties.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Strange Royal Lee Cherry behavior
« on: April 09, 2018, 02:25:42 AM »
Cherry, plum, apricot, nectarine are closely related and can hybridize through cross pollination (Pluot, aprium, plumcot, pluerry) and can be multi grafted onto the same rootstock, much like citrus.
Well basically. It's a little more complicated than that though. There can be very low fruit set and most of these cross species hybrids don't tend to be very vigorous I would imagine, and there are other issues having to do with chromosomes, but too complicated to get into here. Some prunus species are easier to hybridize together than others. For crosses like peach x apricot embryo tissue culture has to be used because the seeds don't have the vigor to germinate by themselves.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Best product for Phomopsis?
« on: April 08, 2018, 03:07:50 PM »
Overrwatering can lead to phomopsis. Which is difficult, because in this hot and dry climate it's easy for the trees to dry out too. My thinking is that it's best to have alternating periods between deep waterings, and then letting the soil dry out. But not too extremely dry for too long. It's a narrow tolerance range.

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