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Messages - SoCal2warm

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I can tell you that the small mangosteen plants are extremely sensitive, even to mildly cold weather, but also other things. I wouldn't try permanently planting it in Orange County unless you live in the more temperature moderate part, and have a good microclimate and spot in the yard for it, where it will be surrounded by other plants, partially shaded, will mostly only get morning sun, will get more sun into the Winter when the sun is at an angle, protected from wind, etc. In other words all the conditions would have to be completely optimal. I believe it's theoretically possible but you'd really have to know what you're doing, and have the right spot for it.

Do not put the seedling in the ground!
Nurture it and wait till it's at least 2 feet tall until you even think about leaving it out. And even under optimal conditions it may be quite some time before it reaches 2 feet tall, they've been extremely slow growing for me, and I have the temperature and humidity set at a perfect level.

I was told by the owner of ONG nursery that he knows of some Vietnamese people in Hacienda (out in San Diego, neighborhood close to the beach) that are growing Purple Mangosteen outside in a container, leaving it outside during the Winter under their patio, and that they got at least one fruit. That's what he told me, as best I can remember. That area is bordering on the edge between zone 10 and zone 11 so don't automatically think that success will transfer over to where you are.

Also realize the West Coast has had a very mild Winter this year.

mangosteen and lychee, temperature kept at a constant 77-79°

the one in the very front is a citron

One solution would have been to place large plastic trash bags inside of the bins and then line the edges with foam and bunched newspaper so the water would be able to expand after freezing.

Or to just fill the barrels with a bunch of smaller water bottles that are each only 90% filled.

Also, the propylene glycol people buy for fog machines can act as an anti-freeze if mixed in the water. It's pretty environmentally benign. (Although you'd have to use one third by weight propylene glycol to lower the freezing point to 0°F, I just looked it up on a graph)

Denaturated ethanol goes for about $70 for a 10-gallon container, but isn't much better at lowering the freezing point. (30% by weight will lower the freezing point to -5°F)

Hmm, I wonder what would happen if you just placed a long cylindrical plastic bag full of styrofoam chips down the middle of the barrel. That way the water would have room to expand. Maybe tie it down with a cinder block.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: January 10, 2018, 04:47:49 PM »
It's not as likely, but one possibility is it could be a triploid, if one of the gametes was unreduced. (This can occasionally happen by natural processes) That could potentially have left the entire genome of one of the parents intact. (In that case it would be 2/3 poncirus and 1/3 mandarin, or 1/3 poncirus and 2/3 mandarin)
Being a triploid would also explain lack of seeds or low seed count.

(for those of you who may not understand, occasionally during production of the plant's reproductive cells meoisis fails to take place, and then the reproductive cell has the full set of two chromosomes, so when it later combines with another reproductive cell the resulting zygote will then have three sets of chromosomes, instead of the usual two that most citrus plants have)

See these videos, using the ground deep down as a thermal battery:


How about Duncan Grapefruit crossed with Sumo Citrus (i.e. Dekopon)?
I bet that would have really good flavor.
(now if only I could find any seeds in the Sumo...)

I believe that being in a container has a natural dwarfing effect on the tree, constraining the root growth, so I believe it may not matter too much how dwarfing the rootstock is.

Or how about a cross between Minneola Tangelo and Chandler pomelo?

The Valencia oranges were rather underformed (and to be honest were not really ripe). The tags on them said imported from Mexico.
The local store has some really good variety and eclectic selection. Two months ago they had Cox's Orange Pippin apple. Never thought I would see that in a store.
It's also the same place were I sampled Jupiter grapes (grapes that taste like lychee!) sourced from a local farm. I don't have time to go into it right now but it's definitely not your normal store.

They had Valencia oranges and Page mandarins at the store today.

I also already have started seedlings from both.
I think a cross between the two would make an extremely good tasting orange.

Cherries actually prefer partial shade in the SoCal climate. Not saying they grow well in zone 10 but they do better in partial shade than full sun.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: My Citrus trees
« on: December 29, 2017, 06:20:03 PM »
I want to hask if anyone know if dekopon is the same as sumo orange.
Yes it is.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / yuzu seeds available - ending Dec 26
« on: December 22, 2017, 03:18:31 PM »
Yuzu seeds available, free shipping, will send you 2 seeds. Only available for the next 4 days.

Yuzu is a cold-hardy sour citrus, and the rind is very fragrant. (Not very good for eating though, but the zest is used to flavor things)

Can also send some limequat seeds if you want (Mexican lime x kumquat)

For best germination results, peel off the outer coating of the seed and wrap it in a moist (not too wet though) paper towel and place in a sealed plastic bag, leave in a warm place and wait 2-4 weeks. Then plant sprout in moist potting soil in a plastic cup. Cover the top with plastic wrap to hold in moisture, but punch 2 or 3 tiny holes in the top. Keep in a warm place with an overhead lamp.

Yuzu is hardy to 10 °F, and there are even a few specimens growing outside in Seattle (if the tree was planted after it already reached decent size).

Sorry, won't send to Europe or Florida.

leave a post below and then send a PM with address

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: keraji mandarin
« on: December 21, 2017, 02:30:24 PM »
Looks like I'll be getting  keraji  too.
I'm not sure why you'd want to have keraji. It's not going to be able to survive outside in Kansas, zone 6. And the fruit quality is not going to be anywhere as good as regular mandarins.
Keraji might be of more interest to someone in climate zone 8a.

I know you're planning to use it in your hybridization attempts, but in zone 6 you may be better off just breeding trifoliate with regular citrus. Keraji doesn't have anywhere near the same cold hardiness as a citrange, for example. I think you wouldn't be bad off just using Satsuma mandarin in your hybridization instead.

Cold Hardy Citrus / keraji mandarin
« on: December 20, 2017, 07:35:50 PM »
Keraji is a cold hardy Japanese mandarin with yellow-orange skin. The taste is like lemonade and the fruits are small and a bit seedy. Supposedly keraji can handle down to 12 °F.

One tree was growing outside unprotected and fruiting in Virginia Beach.

Apparently it was a fairly popular tree in the Southeast among those growing cold hardy citrus, but I can't seem to find any nurseries carrying it now.

A nursery owner in Georgia was kind enough to send me seeds

During my research I came across something interesting in a Japanese genetic analysis paper. Seems like keraji shares in common a parent with satsuma mandarin, a type of Japanese tangor called kunenbo which must be confering a degree of exceptional cold hardiness (it's a parent of bloomsweet as well). The analysis actually indicated keraji was probably a backcross of kunenbo with another sour-type citrus known as kubachi (today rather obscure, but the pictures I was able to find look similar to kabosu or sudachi).

I just read another research paper DNA analysis that says keraji appears to be a cross between kunenbo (seed parent) and kikai-mikan. I found a picture of kikai-mikan and not surprisingly the fruit looks a lot like a cross between both the pictures of kubachi and kunenbo I saw. So it looks like keraji may indeed be a backcross with kunenbo—that is (kubachi x kunenbo) x kunenbo.

For any of you who may be interested, here's the picture of kikaimikan (喜界みかん) I was able to find:

And here's here's a Japanese site showing pictures and description of Kunenbo:

The name Kunenbo translates as "nine year mother". The fruits appear pretty similar to a Kara mandarin. (One of Kara's parents is Satsuma, and Satsuma is a Kunenbo cross with Kishu. Kara is also pretty cold hardy and grows in frosty areas of Japan. Maybe that's giving too much information here)

I suspect there might be different cultivars of keraji as well, with slightly different qualities when it comes to edibility/flavor, if these plants have been propagated at some point from seed. The seeds seemed pretty big like they would be really easy to grow, so that may be likely.

Well that's pretty funny, I start a thread about keraji and show you pictures of its entire lineage of obscure parents but don't show you a picture of keraji itself. Well, there are plenty of pictures of keraji mandarin on the internet so you don't need me to post that there.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Growing rare cold-hardy hybrid
« on: December 19, 2017, 08:17:23 PM »
I'd like to post a quick picture of 3 of a very rare variety of cold-hardy citrus I have. It's a CiTemple 'edible' cross with Ichang papeda, that was then crossed with Minneola tangelo. (Well actually, to be more exact, it's a seedling grown from one of the fruits)

So far the 3 plants haven't fruited yet, and I still reserve a little bit of skepticism that the plants are as claimed, just because the existence of this sort of hybrid is incredibly unusual. I'll fruit them out and report on the fruit quality and cold-hardiness later. There's potential here that this could be the "holy grail" of cold-hardy citrus.

I have two inside a grow tent (to make sure they put on growth over the Winter) and one outside in the greenhouse. So far this cold-hardy hybrid doesn't really have an official name.

(CiTemple is a specific cultivar of citrange, in case anyone reading here was not aware)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: December 19, 2017, 03:09:27 PM »
I agree with you about those recessive genes, Walt.
Something I've been thinking of, you might try making crosses between hybrids that are 50% trifoliate and hybrids that are 25% trifoliate, hoping that some of the recessive genes were retained in the 25% hybrid. If you do crosses with enough different hybrids, you're bound to eventually get something that expresses the full (or closely so) trifoliate cold hardiness phenotype even though it's slightly less than 50% trifoliate in its ancestry.

I know someone who breeds reptiles and he often has to resort to second generation backcrossing to obtain offspring that express recessive traits.

Another thing to be aware of is that some citrus varieties produce more nucellar seeds than other varieties. (nucellar = true to seed, genetic clones)
So if you're making a cross, you might select a variety more likely to produce zygotic seeds as the female parent, and then grow those seeds. Citranges only rarely produce zygotic seeds, so not a good choice for the female parent. In some cases you might just have to grow the seeds to full plants without knowing whether they were true to seed yet.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: December 19, 2017, 02:42:34 PM »
Walt, I'll collaborate with you.

It's true I have no interest in something that is mostly trifoliate in its ancestry, but maybe I can use what you develop to hybridize something and you can take what I develop and cross that with trifoliate.

If I can make a suggestion, you should consider using an indoor grow tent to accelerate growth. I believe it's possible to go from seed to fruit in as little as 3 to 4 years if the temperature is constantly kept above 75 degrees and the humidity is contained (and the potting soil is kept consistently watered, makes sure the plant containers allow plenty of root space as well). You may be able to find a grow tent on the internet for under $45 (2.5 x 2.5 ft or 2 x 4 ft seem to be economical sizes). I usually use incandescent/halogen bulbs inside during the Winter, and have one tent with a little 250W heater on a thermostat temperature control outlet. (I put a gallon container of water right in front of where the heater blows to help keep the temperature moderated, and block the path of dry air to help avoid it causing any of the plants to get dried out)

I hope to breed something that is going to be supermarket quality in taste but survives without much trouble in a zone 8 climate (not just zone 8 but a cool zone 8 climate where the period of summer heat is not that long). This could be pretty useful to someone trying to breed cold hardier citrus because you would already having something that could survive a fair level of cold and tastes good, so it would be a shorter jump for you to get something with extreme cold tolerance that tastes acceptable.

Anyway, hope to stay in touch over the next few years.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: December 18, 2017, 06:45:23 PM »
I'm also breeding cold-hardy citrus, but I'm focusing more on things that could survive in zone 8.

I believe zone 8 is pushing it, but still within the reasonable range of what something good tasting could grow in.

As for cold hardiness testing, my plan is just to breed everything to two generations and then, out of all the offspring, see which ones can survive. That's the fastest way to accelerate things. I'm also planning to propagate a clone of each sample before it undergoes testing for cold hardiness, that way if it survives the cutting will have been already growing the entire time, so there won't be any Winter setbacks in the breeding process. The drawback to this approach is having to grow more cultivars without knowing whether they're going to be cold-hardy.

If I can make a suggestion for you, zone 6 is going to be really difficult. You might try to make a backcross that contains more than 50% poncirus in its ancestry.
Something like this:
 ([citrumelo x mandarin] x poncirus) x (citrange x poncirus)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu... my new obsession!
« on: December 18, 2017, 06:35:49 PM »
I just picked a fruit off the tree

I tasted it and it actually wasn't all that bad, like lemon and Clementine, but very dry (like a rough lemon). It was full of seeds, but I could see eating these in a survival situation or foraging while on a nature hike.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Satsuma mandarins may be related to Yuzu
« on: December 14, 2017, 08:39:09 PM »
This study looked at DNA markers in Satsuma mandarin, to try to determine its origins, and found it grouped closely with Kishu and Kunenbo mandarins.
(Kunenbo is also thought to be the genetic parent of Kinkoji/Bloomsweet, another cold hardy Japanese citrus)

Apparently what is known as "King mandarin" in the USA, falls within the Kunenbo-type mandarins.

What is known as Kara mandarin seems more similar to an orange, with a slightly grapefruit flavor, and seems to grow very well in Japan handling some frost, it was a cross between Satsuma and King mandarin. It has similar cold hardiness to Satsuma but the fruit requires slightly warmer temperatures to reach full ripeness.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Satsuma mandarins may be related to Yuzu
« on: December 14, 2017, 04:06:27 AM »
here's my yuzu with fruit on it

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichang lemon seeds in refrigerator.
« on: December 11, 2017, 12:55:05 AM »
I don't think citrus seeds generally last long in the refrigerator, maybe about 2 months. (inside sealed plastic bag) The paper towel should not be wet but it should be just moist enough to prevent the seeds from drying out. Scrubbing them and dipping in a dilute solution of bleach will help prevent mold growing on them later.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Satsuma mandarins may be related to Yuzu
« on: December 07, 2017, 11:05:20 PM »
Yuzu, Ichang papeda, and Changsha are believed to be closely related, but it's not sure how they are related. I believe it may not be a direct relationship of one being the simple parent of the other.

In general it is usually viewed that Yuzu is a hybrid of Ichang papeda, but I believe it could also be very possible that the two just share the same two ancestors, with differing degrees of heritage. This postulates some original pure papeda species that no longer is found in existence today, with the Ichang papeda coming closest to resembling that original ancestor in morphology. Yuzu appears closer to Ichang papeda than Changsha is, and it's possible Changsha evolved separately, although no one is completely sure.

Yuzu did originate in China in ancient times before it came to Japan. But like many other plants of Chinese origin, it first came to the West by way of Japan. (Another little example, in America we most commonly refer to Tofu by its Japanese name, though on a menu in a Chinese restaurant it's referred to as bean curd). In 1914, the famous U.S. Department of Agriculture researcher Frank Meyer (for whom the "Meyer" lemon is named after) a plant explorer for the USDA, discovered Yuzu growing wild in the southern part of Gansu province in China, among palms, loquats and bamboo. He estimated that the temperatures in that area dipped to 10 F, and no other cultivated citrus grew nearby. Although he originally named it "Kansu orange", he later realized this citrus was identical to the Japanese Yuzu the USDA already had in their collections.

It's just that in China Yuzu appears to have fallen into obscurity, whereas in Japan it became prevalent and valued for bath fragrance and cuisine. There are many possible for reasons for this, all the civil wars in China, and Japan having a more limited variety of different culinary plant species that could grow. Of course now with China rapidly developing and opening up to the rest of the world, the name "Yuzu" is becoming a little problematic since in China the word is now used to refer to pomelo (and even sometimes grapefruit).

Citrus General Discussion / Satsuma mandarins may be related to Yuzu
« on: December 07, 2017, 04:17:49 AM »
This is just a hunch but something I've suspected is that Satsuma mandarins may in fact have ancestry from Yuzu.
There are a couple of things that causes me to think this.

Satsuma mandarins are more yellow in hue than the deep orange of other mandarin fruits.

Satsuma shows significantly more cold hardiness than other mandarins.
The only other mandarin types known to be cold hardier than Satsuma are Keraji and Changsha. Keraji is also fairly yellowish in color, and I suspect has heritage from Nansho Daidai (also I believe descended from Yuzu). Changsha is very reddish orange in color and originates from a drier more interior part of China (and as far as I know it was never brought over to Japan) so I believe Changsha is probably separate and does not have anything to do with the origins of Satsuma. Both these two mandarins are not anywhere near the same level of edibility and deliciousness as Satsuma, and the fruit of both are smaller in size as well.

Although the flavor of Satsuma does not have as much tang as other mandarin varieties, there is something in the aroma of Satsuma that is very aromatic and deep, it reminds me of Yuzu. Other mandarin varieties do not really have this quality.

Under the Japanese system, Satsuma-type mandarins are classified in a completely separate family from the other mandarins, though they are all considered to be mikan.
The Satsuma-type mandarin originally came from China, though it later became far more popular in Japan than China.

Just to clear up a little bit of language naming ambiguity, originally "yuzu" was the Chinese name for sour citrus in particular pomelo, but the Japanese took this word and applied it to the citrus now most commonly known as Yuzu (C. junos). The Chinese refered to this citrus as xiang feng (translates as "fragrant orange").
Some of you might note the similarity here to the name "Shangjuan" (fragrant ball). Shangjuan and Xiang yuan are just alternative romanized spellings of the same Chinese word. Among the cold-hardy growing citrus community in America and Europe, Shangjuan has typically refered to the citrus also known as Ichang Lemon (not quite the same citrus as Ichang papeda). However, in China Xiang yuan more commonly refers to the Chinese citron. The Ichang Lemon and Yuzu (C. junos) still exist in China but are very rare, and most Chinese in these regions don't have any knowledge of them. In contrast, Yuzu is well established in traditional Japanese cuisine, and after declining in popularity for a while, has even made a modern comeback in flavored food and beverage products. Most of these citrus were brought over to Japan during the Tang Dynasty (late 7th Century). (The pomelo reached Japan later, from Taiwan, probably since they were only found in the Southernmost parts of China, and weren't as cold hardy as the more mandarin-type fruits)

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