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Messages - SoCal2warm

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1
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Name that orange! (Please)
« on: January 19, 2019, 03:08:02 PM »
Well, one telltale sign, it does have a navel.

2
You are probably mixing up pomelo and grapefruit.
They were sold as white pomelos.
Two supermarkets here have surprising amount of variety, even though it's far outside of commercial citrus growing territory.
(Page mandarin, mandarinquat, Buddha's hand citron, even Yuzu, just to name a few)

They were also bigger and more pomelo-like than the white grapefruit I have seen them sell.
I know the difference between grapefruit and pomelo. These could have been a pomelo.

3
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: A few super-hardy C. ichangensis hybrid seedlings
« on: January 19, 2019, 02:50:05 AM »
Your seedling might be a zygotic seedling.
It would be more interesting if it is, actually.
Might get something interesting.

What do you think the chances of Ichangquat seeds turning out to be zygotic are?

(none of them so far have turned out to be polyembryonic)

4
Cold Hardy Citrus / A few super-hardy C. ichangensis hybrid seedlings
« on: January 19, 2019, 02:06:41 AM »

Citrus ichangensis x Poncirus trifoliata (N1tri) seedling



kumquat x C. ichangensis (Ichangquat) seedling



some Yuzu (C. junos) seedlings
Yuzu has a really close genetic relationship with C. ichangensis, it may even be descended from it (possibly as a result of genetric introgression from another C. reticula-like citrus species). Some see Yuzu as a C. ichangensis hybrid (constituting an Ichandarin), although it's certainly not a direct hybrid. Yuzu isn't quite as cold hardy as C. ichangensis, maybe but it is a more vigorous and fast grower and can easily recover from damage. Also the leaves of C. ichangensis smell nothing like Yuzu, although they do share a same distict "deepness". Otherwise the smell of C. ichangensis leaves are very mild (maybe a bit like Kaffir lime leaf) and a bit lemony. The leaves of Yuzu are practically like petitgrain (strong, green, harsh, petitgrain is made from the leaves of bergamot citrus). The fruits of Yuzu are very fragrant though (like a mixture of sour orange, Satsuma mandarin, lemon, and maybe a hint of grapefruit sweetness, and also it is a pungently deep spicy smell).

5
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 19, 2019, 01:37:28 AM »
little seedlings, Dimicelli in the front, and Ventura Lemandarin a little further back:

received from Eyeckr

6
This was grown from a seed from a pomelo I got at the supermarket. This pomelo variety definitely wasn't the ordinary Chandler. The smaller flattened shape of the fruit made me think it was probably Reinking (though I can't be absolutely sure).

Check out the size of those winged petioles!



I don't think I've seen a pomelo with petioles that big before.
Almost reminds me of Ichang papeda.

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Orange tree in zone 8
« on: January 18, 2019, 06:30:03 PM »
quote from another forum:
___________________________________
rhizo_1
December 18, 2006

It's so interesting to hear of the 'exceptions to the rule', isn't it? I lived for many years in Beaufort, just a bit north of Savannah. Much to my surprise, I found (over the years), several examples of mature, bearing citrus here and there in B. county.
Two orange trees were planted several years ago from the seeds of oranges brought from Florida. They were very large, and loaded with the most delectable, juicy oranges I have ever eaten. They had been productive for several years, surviving some very harsh cold spells.
Another example was a neighbor (next door), who had kumquats, oranges, and grapefruit. They bore fruit heavily the five years I lived next door. And yes, the Giant Swallowtail caterpillars were quite plentiful, too.
But citrus success would very much be an exception in that area.
___________________________________
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1928230/will-citrus-grow-in-savannah-georgia
(response to thread "Will Citrus grow in Savannah Georgia?")

Savannah and Beaufort are in zone 8b.

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Graft chimeras and hardy citrus
« on: January 18, 2019, 01:44:26 PM »
I initially plan to grow citrus just to collect leaves for cooking.
Kaffir lime and Ichang papeda have the mildest leaves for cooking.
Yuzu, though closely related to Ichang papeda, does not have leaves that are anywhere as mild as Ichang papeda.
If they made a cross between Ichang papeda and Kaffir lime, I'm sure that hardy cross would be very useful for harvesting the leaves for cooking. (Kaffir lime is much hardier than ordinary limes, being able to do well down to zone 9, since it's not really a true lime)

Bye hardy citrus. Don't waste time on something impossible. Enjoy something that is tangible. Grow something that we can eat while we are still young. No space in garden for stupid hardy citrus.
I can see that attitude if you live in solid zone 7 or less, but in zone 8 there is a lot more options and potential.

Anyway there is US 856 which is not too bad (it's edible to some people) which is hardy to the warmer part of zone 7, and some people have managed to grow citrumelo unprotected in the Deep South in zone 7b. I am aware of one report of a big Ichang papeda tree loaded with lemons growing on the border between 7b/8a in South Carolina.

Anyway, I don't understand why both of you went so far off-topic.

9
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: a few pictures from the Pacific Northwest
« on: January 17, 2019, 02:59:43 PM »
Pictures taken just now, January 17

Yuzu

(Notice those little blooming white flowers in the background! It's the middle of Winter!)

Dunstan citrumelo


Arctic Frost mandarin (doesn't look like it's doing as well)


Satsuma mandarin
It had a frame cover over it but the winds broke apart the cover in early January and it's been exposed since then. No extremely cold frosts during this time, however.


Here's the "MIC" hybrid,
leaves mostly all yellow, a few greenish-yellow


small Keraji seedling,
it has a little plastic cover over it but I took it off so you could see.

seems to be managing to survive in ground


Here are some non-citrus ones.

Hardy gardenia 'Crown Jewel'


Yellow camellia hybrid
because it's a nitidissima cross it's not as hardy as normal camellias, but it seems to be doing okay so far.


Those "weeds" surrounding it are actually foxgloves that had been popping up everywhere.
Note all the leaves are still green. The leaves on the bamboo are still green as well, and don't seem to have dropped. (That's not even something you'd see in the Tokyo region, strange)

Cork Oak,
these are said to only be hardy to zone 8 (or 9)
but it still has all its leaves


Most of the roses still have all of their leaves as well (at least the ones the deer didn't eat).

This is in Olympia, WA, middle of Winter. (very far north in latitude, by the way)
Compared to other parts on the East Coast it's more like an early cold Spring.
I don't think regular camellias can even survive outside of a greenhouse north of Virginia, and certainly not gardenias.
But last year here I saw several 12 foot tall camellia bushes blooming on New Years Day.

10
You didn't grow this Dekopon from seed, did you?

11
I heard quince is highly susceptible to fire blight if grown in the north America.
If grown in the Southeast. They tend not to do well with heat combined with humidity.

On the other hand, they'll grow just fine in the central valley of California, and can even be grown all the way up to Maine.

You can grow them where you live but be prepared to spray them a lot for disease.
Some people in the South can be afraid to plant them because they can be disease magnets if you have any pears nearby.

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 16, 2019, 05:27:49 PM »
A CALAMONDIN HYBRID
GLEN CITRANGEDIN

The calamondin has been utilized in a number of hybrids, the most promising of them being one in which it was pollinated with pollen of the Willits citrange. This citrange, which has been previously described, is itself a hybrid, resulting from pollinating the Japanese trifoliate orange (Poncirus trifoliata) with pollen of the common sweet orange (Citrus sinensis). The citranges as a class are the hardiest of all evergreen citrus varieties or hybrids, but the fruit usually retains an objectionable quantity of musky oil, derived from the trifoliate parent, that necessitates special precautions in using the rather acid fruits for " ade " or preserves. Most of the hybrids in which the citrange has been utilized have traces of this flavor much reduced, however, as in the Thomas ville citrangequat, a hybrid of the oval kumquat (Fortunella margarita) and the Willits citrange. By hybridizing the Willits citrange with the calamondin, however, a fruit has been produced that is fully as hardy as the citrange parent but entirely free from the pungent oil usually associated with hybrids of trifoliate orange ancestry. The tree, however, so closely resembles the common calamondin that some doubt might be raised as to the hybrid nature of the plant but for the occurrence of trifoliate leaves, especially in the juvenile stages, combined with much greater hardiness and greater vigor of growth, as compared with the ordinary calamondin.

This hybrid was the result of a cross-pollination made by the senior writer in the spring of 1909 at Glen St. Mary, Fla. Mature trees
have been fruiting with great regularity at Glen St. Mary for some years past and have survived freezes that severely injured the ordinary calamondin and the limequat. More than 100 miles farther north, at McKae, Ga., this hybrid has also fruited well, and the fruit has been reported as acceptable at the local soda fountains for use in preparing "limeade," which can scarcely be distinguished from the true limeade.

As this fruit originated at Glen St. Mary, where it has long been fruiting, it is proposed to call it the Glen citrangedin.

Technical description. Fruit somewhat variable in size, oblate-spheroid, 1%
to 1% inches in transverse diameter by 1 to iy inches high, small per-
sistent calyx set in slight depression, minute nipple at pistil end; color deep
reddish orange (Ridgway, cadmium orange) ; rind thin and firm (one-
eighth inch in thickness), not as free peeling as the calamondin and some-
what coarser, smooth and glossy, except for slight indentations due to
numerous minute oil-cell depressions; segments 6 to 8, separating easily;
small solid core ; pulp juicy, tender, and translucent, very sharply acid but with-
out trace of the repugnant oil usually encountered in hybrids of the trifoliate
orange, color of pulp orange yellow (Ridgway cadmium yellow) ; seeds small
and plump, 3 to 5, some fruits seedless. Tree evergreen, of vigorous upright
habit, highly ornamental, especially when bearing a crop of bright-colored fruits ;
leaves usually unifoliate, occasional bifoliate and trifoliate leaves appearing,
dark green, glossy, 1% to 2^4 inches in length, long-pointed oval, petiole nar-
rowly winged and long in comparison with leaf size.

The tree has the habit, more pronounced than in the true calamondin, of
bearing its fruit in clusters at the ends of long slender branches, bending the
tree over with the weight of the fruit.

In regions too cold for growing the limequat or the ordinary calamondin with safety, this hardy fruit, the Glen citrangedin, offers
an attractive and useful substitute. It is, of course, chiefly of service in preparing "ades" and in flavoring, much as lemons or limes are used. When not intended for immediate use, the fruit should be picked in the yellow or green-yellow stage rather than when red, as the small, fully ripe fruits tend to shrivel rather rapidly when held at ordinary storage temperature.

The tree is more or less everbearing, although the bulk of the fruit matures in the late summer and fall months. Owing to its small
size, the fruit freezes at temperatures only slightly below freezing, so it can not be held on the trees over winter in cold sections. Most of the trees thus far fruiting have been budded on the trifoliate-orange stock, and this doubtless has added to their hardiness. The tree should be grown on this stock or on the hybrid citrange in the colder sections of the Gulf coast and coastal-plains area of the South.

Like the true calamondin, this new fruit has value as an ornamental when grown as a dwarf or potted plant.

The Glen citrangedin, obtained by hybridizing the Willits citrange with the calamondin, is a remarkable new acid fruit which combines to a large extent the extreme hardiness of the citrange parent with the high acidity and excellent flavor of the calamondin. It has been grown successfully as far north as McRae (latitude 32), in southern Georgia, and can endure more winter cold than any other acid fruit of good quality yet studied.

Unlike the citrange, the Glen citrangedin has a sharp acid flavor without a trace of the repellent bitter flavor carried by oil globules
in the interior of the pulp vesicles of the citrange. It is not only an excellent "ade" fruit for home use and for local markets, but
also has high ornamental value if grown as a dwarf or potted plant.

On account of its extreme hardiness it should be tested throughout the warmer parts of the Gulf coast and also in southern and south-eastern Georgia, southern Texas, and possibly in the cooler irrigated valleys of Arizona where lemons, limes, and even limequats do not succeed.

New Citrus Hybrids, United States Department of Africulture, Circular No. 181, August 1931


13
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Graft chimeras and hardy citrus
« on: January 16, 2019, 03:51:28 PM »
Is cold hardiness a characteristic of the cells or of the entire organism?
Probably a little bit of both. When cells are so mixed like that, many times messenger chemicals from one cell will affect surrounding cells and tissue, and lots of chemical substances are floating around in the plant's phloem, which is the cause of much freeze damage as the phloem freezes and expands leading to side cracks.

I don't think this particular area is really well studied.

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Graft chimeras and hardy citrus
« on: January 16, 2019, 10:57:18 AM »
How much do we know about graft chimeras and hardy citrus?

Graft chimeras are a sort of hybrid, but not a genetic one, between two different species that resulted through grafting, typically from growth offshoot coming out of a graft union area and then separately propagated. The graft chimera is comprised of a mixture of cells between the two citrus types.

There are different types of graft chimeras. The most homogeneous ones, and the ones of most interest are periclinal chimeras, which typically involve a single layer of cells distributed throughout the growth of the plant.

I'm also experimenting with joining together different seedlings together at the earliest stage of their development, so that the seedling sprout consists of a mix of cells from two sources. (This takes some very fine precision and a good eye)

How much hardiness can a cold hardy variety confer to another normal citrus variety when they are part of a chimera together?
Could this be a viable strategy for developing new cold hardy citrus?

From what I've seen, many obscure citrus varieties that are believed to have originated as a graft chimera have not actually been confirmed as being so, so it's not truly known with certainty.
The only way to be sure is if there's obvious phenotypical differences in different parts of the tree, or on different parts of the fruit, but in that case its not a very homogenous chimera, and not a periclinal type of one, which would be expected to give the best hardiness because the cells are more evenly distributed throughout the plant.

Say for instance we had a Satsuma graft chimera together with a Satsuma-trifoliate (citrandarin) hybrid.
The Satsuma-trifoliate hybrid within the chimera system could be a triploid with only one of its three sets of chromosomes coming from trifoliate.*
That could potentially make the resulting chimera nearly indistinguishable from normal Satsuma.


* (This could come about through hybridizing a tetraploid Satsuma with a normal diploid trifoliate, or the pollen may have been unreduced coming from the Satsuma, or the female parent being used could have been a "seedless" triploid, and so any rare seeds that did manage to form would be much more likely to have originated from an unreduced female gamete, since triploid cells that undergo meiosis have a fairly high chance of turning out aneuploid and won't develop. Also, you have to have a non-nucellar citrus variety for the triploid to turn out seedless, otherwise the seeds are still going to form from nucellar tissue even though the zygote failed to develop.)


Prague Citsuma is believed to be a graft hybrid, but it has not yet been positively confirmed with certainty. (A few basic tests were done but were inconclusive)


15
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Is a 500W Halogen light too much?
« on: January 16, 2019, 01:08:07 AM »
I just use 13 watt ("100 watt equivalent") 5000K LED bulbs, which seem to work okay for 2 x 2 foot areas (better than red+blue LED panels in my experience).

16
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 15, 2019, 11:20:00 PM »
Walt, I suggest you make an acquaintance in the area who would be able to carry on your long term hardy citrus breeding project if something were to happen to you. You have to think ahead and plan beyond your lifetime.

I have read of many results of long-term fruit breeding being totally lost when the original person carrying on the experiments died. Such a shame. I'd hope that doesn't happen in your case.

17
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Kumquat varieties update
« on: January 14, 2019, 09:55:23 PM »
Does Ichangquat count as a kumquat variety?


18
Citrus General Discussion / Re: What is wrong with my page mandarin tree?
« on: January 14, 2019, 09:44:18 PM »
If I had to guess, maybe cold wet roots combined with hard clay and limestone soil?
Although they need to stay moist, citrus roots like to breathe, and when they can't the leaves often turn yellow during the colder wetter winter.
Alkalinity (limestone) could also be making it more difficult for the roots to take up iron. However, yours looks more like it may be nitrogen deficiency.

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 14, 2019, 02:36:09 PM »
Eyeckr is growing numerous cold hardy citrus cultivars right up against an inlet of water in Virginia Beach (in case any of you are not aware, or for those who may be reading an archived version of this in the distant future), in zone 8a.

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 14, 2019, 01:42:08 AM »
I believe Ventura is Eyeckr's last name.
I believe you are correct. That would make sense then. 

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 13, 2019, 05:23:28 PM »
A question, does anyone know if the Ventura lemandarin originated from Ventura, California?
There's also a Ventura county in Florida just outside of Orlando.

22
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 13, 2019, 05:19:00 PM »
Unfortunately, none of these are readily available to us (except Glen and Thomasville).
I have all four of the ones listed, and will be happy to send out seeds once they have fruited, but they're still probably a long way away from fruiting.

Eyeckr has some extra Glen citrangedin fruits, I'm sure he could send you one. Though after looking at the fruit for myself, I'm not sure I'd bother.

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 13, 2019, 12:28:17 AM »
Let's talk about some of the more unusual and obscure complex hybrids.


Dimicelli - I'm not exactly sure where this one comes from but it's believed to either be a citrandarin or, more likely I've read, someone remembered it being a Clementine cross with CiTemple.

"The common tangerine is the hardiest of the dessert citrus, and was a possible source of genetic material.  The first attempt was Clementine x P. trifoliata, and these survived, at least in Franklin at 0F (-17.8C)and in Houstion at 5F (-15C)to fruit following the freeze of 1989.  They seem to be hardy to five degree above zero.  Several siblings, 'Dimicelli', 'Backyard' and 'Hardy Fruitful 90 have received the dignity of names."
The Hardy Citrus of Texas, reported by C.T. Kennedy from the notes of John R. Brown, M.D., article in Fruit Gardener, page 14

CiTemple is a Temple orange x poncirus cross, Temple orange actually being a tangor that has zygotic seeds and thus a suitable choice for female parent in hybridization efforts. I've read some references to "CiTemple edible" which was considered particularly good tasting variety for a citrange.

Ventura Lemandarin- This is believed to be a cross between Tiwanica lemon and either Keraji or Satsuma mandarin.
Ventura lemandarin is sour, like a lemon.
Seems to be a vigorous growing variety. Supposedly when it was high grafted onto poncirus it managed to survive a brief 6 F event with branch die-back, according to one report.

According to genetic marker studies, Tiwanica lemon seems to really be a sort of sour orange, with pomelo-type gene indications. It originated from Taiwan, and was named Nanshodaidai in Japan. The fruits are as sour as a lemon.
Both Keraji and Satsuma are closely related in ancestry, Keraji having even more cold tolerance than Satsuma, though smaller more sour (and seedy) fruits.

Glen citrangedin- This was an early citrange x calamondin cross.

" The first hybrids were between Poncirus trifoliata and varieties of the cultivated orange. They were called "Citranges" and while they received a good deal of publicity when they were first introduced they may be said to have been more encouraging than useful. The fruit, though beautiful to look at, was scarcely larger than that of the Trifoliate Orange, and while the juice, taken by itself, could be used as a substitute for lemons, there was even in the hybrid so much musky oil in the rind, that special precautions had to be taken in opening the fruit. Another bad trait of the hybrid was its too quick response to warm weather in the early spring. It was, therefore, crossed with two other citrus fruits, which, though not so hardy in other ways, were slower to start into growth m the spring. These were the Kumquat, Fortunella japonica, and the Calamondin, Citrus mitas, a tropical citrus fruit from the Philippines. The triple hybrids which resulted were called "Citrangequats" and "Citrangedins" respectively. The most promising hybrid yet introduced is among the latter group and has been named the Glen Citrangedin, from Glen St. Marys, Florida, where much of the breeding work has been done. It has small fruits about the size and flavor of a lime, but colored like an orange. The rind is without even a trace of the musky oil which characterizes the original hybrid and the tree is hardy at least as far north as southern Georgia. This artificial cosmopolite, uniting the possibilities of the Chinese Poncirus, and Philippine Calamondin with the common orange, is the "farthest north" which has as yet been achieved by the plant breeders. "
Arnold Arboretum Harvard University Bulletin of Popular Information, Series 3, Volume VI, November 5, 1932, article: Growing Orages in Boston, page 45, Edgar Anderson

I don't know about good tasting though. I was given two of the fruits and they had an unpleasant aroma, like rubber and baby wipes that made them inedible to me. The same with many other poncirus hybrids.
If they had been grown from seed it's possible they just reverted to a more bad flavored type, so I can't be completely sure if the fruits were truly indicitive of the original Glen citrangedin. Fruit size was also incredibly small, tinier than big sized kumquats.
Thomasville citrangequat was infinitely better.

MIC (Minneola x Ichang papeda x CiTemple Edible) -
I believe this was bred by Dr. Brown, who first crossed Ichang papeda with CiTemple Edible, and then crossed that with Minneola Tangelo.

(I have a seedling cultivar of this, may or may not be exactly the same as the original MIC, but unfortunately haven't had the opportunity to see any fruits yet)

Minneola tangelo isn't exactly a real cold hardy variety, but they are a bit hardier than oranges.

24
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 12, 2019, 08:19:09 PM »
I may try to cross Taitri with Oroblanco grapefruit.

(appropriate since Taitri is tiwanica lemon x trifoliate, and tiwanica is really like a sour orange in ancestry, with pomelo-type as far as genetics go)

25
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 12, 2019, 03:41:29 AM »
For me, this is a little bit deceptive result and proves that even for a single gene trait you need more than 2 backcroses and 30 years of breeding in order to  get rid of nasty taste of Poncirus fruits.
That's why it may be better to start from already existing more edible hybrids like N1tri, US 852, and Dunstan citrumelo.
In the case of Thomasville citrangequat I virtually didn't detect any off taste at all and it was almost like calamondin or orange in flavor.

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