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Author Topic: Taichang lemon  (Read 1875 times)

Florian

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Taichang lemon
« on: June 08, 2017, 04:03:06 AM »
I was given some seeds of this interesting hybrid and three germinated. I'd like to know how they do with members here since there is not much information to be found on the internet. Apparently, they taste good enough and have some cold tolerance (which isn't surprising considering the parents). Pictures are most welcome.
Thanks!

eyeckr

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2017, 11:52:48 AM »
I grew tiachang lemon for a good number of years in my backyard and did not think much of the fruit. It wasn't bad but not much more than another sour-ish small sized citrus fruit. My tiachang fruit were the size of a small mandarin. Ichang lemon itself is much more cold tolerant and produces a bigger fruit. I lost my tiachang when we got lower than 12 degrees one year if I remember correctly.

Now that I think about it I always wondered if tiachang is truely a hybrid of ichang lemon and tiawanica lemon because the fruit is much smaller than both 'parent trees' and less hardy than either of them. I'm not sure how you could end up with a smaller fruit if they were bred together? Ichang lemons are the size of a medium sized grapefruit but kind of bell shaped. Tiawanica lemon (sour orange) are the size of a large flattened orange. Somehow I am more inclined to believe that tiachang is more closer to a hybrid of yuzu x some other small mandarin. I also think the seeds of tiachang look more like yuzu seeds.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 01:08:06 PM by eyeckr »

Florian

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2017, 12:39:04 AM »
Well, that isn't quite what I hoped for but at least I don't have any false expectations now. Thanks a lot!
What you say about the fruit size and seeds makes perfectly sense.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 12:42:28 AM by Florian »

mikkel

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2017, 02:26:28 AM »
If I remember right there might be a difference between the european and the US one. I know one palnt in Germany with evergreen leaves. @eyeckr isn`t yours decidious?

Florian

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2017, 08:48:15 AM »
I received the seeds from the US..

eyeckr

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2017, 10:43:34 AM »
I sourced my original tree material from Mckenzie Farms and mine actually held most of its leaves during the winters unless we got into really low temps. Then the tree would drop all of its cold damaged leaves and refoliate in the spring.

Ilya11

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2017, 12:56:39 PM »
I have its seedling in the ground without protection since 2013.
I believe the seeds were from eyeckr plant ( sent to  my friend in Ukraine).
It is now around 2 m high, but not yet flowered. It was never damaged, while Shangyuan ichang lemon had occasionally some frozen branches.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

eyeckr

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 11:01:17 PM »
Ilya11 good to hear that your seedling (apparently from my long gone poor tiachang) is doing well. Thanks for the report and interesting that yours is faring better than your ichang. It goes to show that everyone's experience with growing citrus can definitely vary. Hopefully you get flowers and fruit soon!

Ilya11

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 03:45:34 AM »
Thank you. I have some other plants from your seeds, but Taichang is the largest and most vigorous.
It is now 2 meters high and hopefully will flower soon.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2018, 12:32:09 PM »
Here is the first fruit of my Taichang lemon!


What do you think about it ?

Radoslav

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2018, 02:23:30 PM »
It is a seedling?
Here is a picture of original tree posted by eyeckr in old citrus forum.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 02:28:50 PM by Radoslav »

Millet

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2018, 03:09:47 PM »
Doesn't look like a Taichang lemon,  It looks more like a Buddha Hand.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2018, 03:34:42 PM »
Sylvain, is there any promising smell or taste? Does the budwood I got come from this specimen?

Sylvain

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2018, 05:17:06 PM »
In fact, it is labeled "OP taichang lemon". I don't remember the source but the "OP" means that it is from seed.
It is trifoliate so it is not a taichang lemon but a hybrid.
No, it is not a Buddha's hand because it has been in ground for years without any protection and a citron could not survive.
The fact that it is 'fingered' is a mystery.
It could be an Eriophyes sheldoni atack (the bud mite) but it doesn't look like at all.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 05:40:26 AM by Sylvain »

Sylvain

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2018, 05:36:59 PM »
@Zitrusgaertner
> Does the budwood I got come from this specimen?
Probably, unless I have several. I must verify.
If yours is monfoliate it is the good one, if it is trifoliate it is the OP.
Tell me.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 06:27:36 AM by Sylvain »

Ilya11

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2018, 06:06:19 PM »
Are you sure that this is not a citrus bud mite damage?
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2018, 06:30:40 AM »
I am not sure of anything and that's why I am asking the forum.
This is the first thing I thought of but when I search the net the pictures look very different.

Ilya11

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2018, 09:25:12 AM »
I had a very similar fingered  form of Morton fruits in the past and assumed that was because of mites present during a flowering.
But certainly your plant is very far from Taichang  with its elongated fruit,  rough appearance and trifoliate leaves.
I can not imagine a  known poncirus hybrid that could be its pollen parent.
What was a source of this seed?
Best regards,
                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2018, 05:09:52 PM »
Now that I think about it I always wondered if tiachang is truely a hybrid of ichang lemon and tiawanica lemon because the fruit is much smaller than both 'parent trees' and less hardy than either of them. I'm not sure how you could end up with a smaller fruit if they were bred together? Ichang lemons are the size of a medium sized grapefruit but kind of bell shaped. Tiawanica lemon (sour orange) are the size of a large flattened orange. Somehow I am more inclined to believe that tiachang is more closer to a hybrid of yuzu x some other small mandarin. I also think the seeds of tiachang look more like yuzu seeds.
When seedlings result from sexual recombination, it can be the luck of the draw for the genes it gets.
In this case it looks like this particular cross may not have gotten the best combination of genes from both parents.
Maybe someone should try making another hybrid between the two again.


I've been looking into the research for the origins of ichang lemon and taiwanica lemon, and I'm finding some conflicting information.
It's generally agreed that Ichang lemon resulted from a cross between C. maxima (pomelo) and C. ichangensis, but at least one source found more of gene marker correlation to Yuzu (C. junos) rather than C. ichangensis, which may or may not mean anything.
(Hybrid Origins of Citrus Varieties Inferred from DNA Marker Analysis of Nuclear and Organelle Genomes, Tokurou Shimizu, 2016, under 'Parentage analysis of parent–offspring dyads in the indigenous varieties', ninth paragraph down)
C. junos and C. ichangensis are closely related, if the one did not originate from hybridization/introgression of the other.
(not going to get into too much detail on this here)

Taiwanica lemon seems to have more obscure origins. Supposedly it originally came to Japan from Taiwan, and genetic marker studies seem to indicate it is an admixture of pomelo-type and mandarin-type (being equivalent to sour orange type). Apparently some cultivars of taiwanica lemon have fruits that can get the size of grapefruits, although the typical taiwanica lemon seen in the U.S. seems to be smaller. Apparently it is either endogenous to, or became naturalized in the wild in Taiwan, although it has since become endangered in the wild.
I suspect it may have come in part from a mandarin species closely related to C. tachibana which could have previously existed on the island (but this is speculation), due to the slightly elongated leaf shape and cold hardiness.

One genetic study found that C. depressa (Shikuwasa) and C. tachibana did not seem to have a direct relation, despite both being indigenous to Taiwan.
(Phylogenetic Relationships among Selected Citrus Germplasm among Selected Citrus Germplasm Accessions Revealed by Inter-simple Sequence Repeat (ISSR) Markers, Dequiu Fang, UC Riverside, 1998 )
However, Shikuwasa and Tachibana seemed to cluster closely together in another study.
(Hybrid Origins of Citrus Varieties Inferred from DNA Marker Analysis of Nuclear and Organelle Genomes, Tokurou Shimizu, 2016 )

The study (Shimizu 2016 ) also showed a high probability that Kishu (mandarin) was one of the parents of Natsudaidai (Tiwanica lemon), so one could infer that if there was any special hardiness passed down, it had to have come from the other unknown pomelo-type parent.

Also, Shikuwasa seemed to have citron/ichangensis ancestry (the two were difficult to differentiate in this particular analysis), whereas Natsudaidai (Tiwanica lemon) seemed to have pomelo ancestry instead. (bar graph of different varieties, Figure 4)
(of course they both have mandarin-type ancestry also)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 06:05:43 PM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2018, 05:31:14 PM »
The Buddha's hand phenotype is a mutation that can sometimes manifest itself, if you're growing lots of citrus seedlings.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 05:35:20 PM by SoCal2warm »

Ilya11

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2018, 06:02:05 PM »
The Buddha's hand phenotype is a mutation that can sometimes manifest itself, if you're growing lots of citrus seedlings.
Is this a fact or your assumption? I never seen any evidence for this.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2018, 07:56:10 AM »
Sylvain, it has trifoliate leaves.....

Laaz

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2018, 04:16:37 PM »
Slyvain do all the fruit look like this?

Sylvain

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Re: Taichang lemon
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2018, 05:28:15 AM »
This is the first and only fruit.  :)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 05:43:58 AM by Sylvain »

 

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