Author Topic: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?  (Read 2347 times)

BonsaiBeast

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
    • San Diego CA, USDA zone 10a, sunset zone 24
    • View Profile
    • BonsaiBeast
Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« on: January 18, 2018, 05:47:23 PM »
I saw a nice atemoya tree at a nursery. It's labeled as "annona x atemoya"

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15883
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2018, 05:59:42 PM »
x means crossed, or hybrid. So yes, it just means atemoya (a cross of cherimoya with sugar apple).
Oscar

johnb51

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4778
    • USA Deerfield Beach, FL Zone 11a
    • View Profile
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2018, 04:02:18 PM »
So it would be a sugar apple crossed with an atemoya (which itself is A. squamosa x A. cherimola), making it 75% squamosa and 25% cherimola, but still called an atemoya.  Right?
John

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15883
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2018, 05:16:45 PM »
So it would be a sugar apple crossed with an atemoya (which itself is A. squamosa x A. cherimola), making it 75% squamosa and 25% cherimola, but still called an atemoya.  Right?
No. I think what they mean by Annona X is atemoya which = Cherimoya crossed with sugar apple.
What you are suggesting would be a double cross.
Oscar

HIfarm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1145
    • Paukaa, HI, USA zone 12b
    • View Profile
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2018, 05:36:02 PM »
When someone makes up a tag like that, it is hard to say what they are trying to convey but I think, more than likely, Oscar is correct in his interpretation.  To elaborate on Oscar's comments:

Species are correctly written like this:  Annona squamosa
naturally occurring hybrids are written like this: Annona xatemoya (if it was a naturally occurring hybrid, I don't believe it is)
manmade hybrids are generally written: Annona Atemoya

People are generally lazy so don't use italics & aren't careful about the case of letters.  I suspect you had a case where someone was trying to show off their knowledge making a tag & just made it more confusing. There aren't whole lot of hybrids (interspecific) in tropical fruit trees so you don't see the terminology too much.

Guanabanus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • SE Palm Beach County, East of I-95, Elevation 18'
    • USA, Florida, Boynton Beach, 33435, Zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2018, 10:46:42 PM »
No.  "Annona hybrid" is a very general term describing plants produced by cross-pollinating two species of Annona, or even, later on, by cross-pollinating those hybrids with yet other species or with other hybrids, to make "complex Annona hybrids." "Annona hybrid" is not synonimous with "atemoya", as the latter is a sub-category.

Though some authors write "atemoya" in a species name format, "atemoya" is really just a common name.

"Atemoya" is a coined word--- a made-up word.  This word was made by "hybridizing" two words to make a new name for a new type of hybrid plant, which was produced by cross-pollination between "Ate" Annona squamosa and "Cherimoya Annona cherimola, regardless of which species was seed parent or pollen parent.

Similar hybrid words, for other sub-categories of Annona hybrids, include:

"Cherilata", for Annona cherimola  X  Annona reticulata;

"Cherilama", for Annona cherimola  X  Annona diversifolia (The common name for the latter is "ilama".);

"Temoylata", for "Atemoya"  X  Annona reticulata;

"Temoylama", for "Atemoya"  X  Annona diversifolia.
Har

Chandramohan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 793
    • India, Kerala, Wynad
    • View Profile
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2018, 11:24:17 PM »
So 'Arka sahan' would be 'Atemosa'.

Mike T

  • Zone 12a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8984
  • Cairns,Nth Qld, Australia
    • Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2018, 01:48:46 AM »
Ati-atemoya could be a name and I think lessard cold be sugar apple x atemoya.A good ilama crossed with a pinks mammoth atemoya would be interesting especially if the very low seed count of PM was inherited.

Mugenia

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
    • People's Socialist Republic of California USDA Zone 10
    • View Profile
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2018, 02:31:35 AM »
Supermarkets in the GCC region are selling a type of hybridized sugar apples called "Lebanon custard apple." I have tried eating both the Indian sugar apple and the Lebanon custard apple and comparing the textures and favors of each.  The Lebanon is gigantic, chewy, and sweet, but less gritty. The Indian sugar apple is  chewy and sweet, but more gritty.

What kind of custard apples is the Lebanon? I have given some seeds to couple of members here. Hopefully, those playas can germinate and grow them into full fruit producing trees. Coastal Lebanon is very similar to Southern California. It survives there, it'd not have a problem in Florida or Southern California.

johnb51

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4778
    • USA Deerfield Beach, FL Zone 11a
    • View Profile
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2018, 09:52:40 AM »
"Atemoya" is a coined word--- a made-up word.  This word was made by "hybridizing" two words to make a new name for a new type of hybrid plant, which was produced by cross-pollination between "Ate" Annona squamosa and "Cherimoya Annona cherimola, regardless of which species was seed parent or pollen parent.
So even if double-cross resulting in 75% squamosa/25% cherimola or 75% cherimola/25% squamosa, it's still called atemoya?
John

skhan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2274
    • United States, Florida, Coral Springs, 10b
    • View Profile
    • Videos of Garden
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2018, 09:55:18 AM »
"Atemoya" is a coined word--- a made-up word.  This word was made by "hybridizing" two words to make a new name for a new type of hybrid plant, which was produced by cross-pollination between "Ate" Annona squamosa and "Cherimoya Annona cherimola, regardless of which species was seed parent or pollen parent.
So even if double-cross resulting in 75% squamosa/25% cherimola or 75% cherimola/25% squamosa, it's still called atemoya?
I think we refer to that as annona hybrids

HIfarm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1145
    • Paukaa, HI, USA zone 12b
    • View Profile
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2018, 11:16:31 AM »
No.  "Annona hybrid" is a very general term describing plants produced by cross-pollinating two species of Annona, or even, later on, by cross-pollinating those hybrids with yet other species or with other hybrids, to make "complex Annona hybrids." "Annona hybrid" is not synonimous with "atemoya", as the latter is a sub-category.

Though some authors write "atemoya" in a species name format, "atemoya" is really just a common name.

"Atemoya" is a coined word--- a made-up word.  This word was made by "hybridizing" two words to make a new name for a new type of hybrid plant, which was produced by cross-pollination between "Ate" Annona squamosa and "Cherimoya Annona cherimola, regardless of which species was seed parent or pollen parent.

Similar hybrid words, for other sub-categories of Annona hybrids, include:

"Cherilata", for Annona cherimola  X  Annona reticulata;

"Cherilama", for Annona cherimola  X  Annona diversifolia (The common name for the latter is "ilama".);

"Temoylata", for "Atemoya"  X  Annona reticulata;

"Temoylama", for "Atemoya"  X  Annona diversifolia.

I assumed that these were official accepted names for these hybrids.  So, is there no official body recording registrations of tropical fruit trees?  There are for orchids, roses, rhododendrons, etc.  The convention you mention (combining the names of the two parents) is not uncommon in registering names for these other plants but is not required either.

Guanabanus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • SE Palm Beach County, East of I-95, Elevation 18'
    • USA, Florida, Boynton Beach, 33435, Zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Is annona x a variety of atemoya? Or does it just mean atemoya?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2018, 12:13:06 PM »
Almost all "variety names" of tropical fruits are chosen, totally informally, by plant explorers, nursery personnel, experiment station personnel, and backyard hobbyists.

In most cases these plants and the current-names-in-the-trade used for them have never made it into any formal registry or any other form of legal definition or protection.  We are still rather much a part of the wild world, and most of the plants we use are entirely subject to the topsy-turvy irregularities of human popular cultures.

I have named, at the moment of collection of graftwood from seedlings that appeared to be above average or to have some distinct characteristic, quite a few varieties.  These names then served as the identifiers for propagation, verbal descriptions, and sales.

I also am the plant breeder who coined the above common-name terms for hybrids, following the model of "atemoya", which was coined over a hundred years ago.

Several countries and international organizations have set up formal procedures for variety registrations which apparently have been useful for Green Revolution multiple-generation-hybridization-for-production-of-grain-seeds for rice, wheat, corn, and soybeans.  Most of this is not practical / cost effective for varieties that are to be produced vegetatively, such as by grafting.  The imposition of considerable bureaucratic procedures and fees onto tropical fruit tree species that have not undergone centuries of experiment station efforts, is mainly attractive to those who have a vested interest---salaries--- in receiving a mandate to "regulate an industry."
Har