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Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: MarinFla on June 20, 2012, 03:51:35 PM

Title: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: MarinFla on June 20, 2012, 03:51:35 PM
Has anyone successfully fruited a mamey sapote grown in a large container??
I was thinking about trying to grow a Pantin in a 45 gal container but if it will not fruit in a container I guess I will put my efforts in another direction.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: bsbullie on June 20, 2012, 04:43:32 PM
Has anyone successfully fruited a mamey sapote grown in a large container??
I was thinking about trying to grow a Pantin in a 45 gal container but if it will not fruit in a container I guess I will put my efforts in another direction.
I have a Lorito fruiting in a 15 gallon.  Excalibur has multiple varieties fruiting in 15 gal and larger.  I have picked and eaten a number of mameys from Excalibur and I don't know if any that are planted in the ground.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: bsbullie on June 20, 2012, 04:52:30 PM
By the way, I would not just focus on Pantin...while pantin is excellent I would tend to favor the Lorito and recently tasted Viejo over the Pantin in both taste and texture.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: johnb51 on June 20, 2012, 06:25:23 PM
Pace is supposed to have a good flavor also, right?  R. Campbell recommended Lorito to me.  My Viejo in the front yard is looking great--very ornamental at this early stage.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: bsbullie on June 20, 2012, 07:13:49 PM
Pace is supposed to have a good flavor also, right?  R. Campbell recommended Lorito to me.  My Viejo in the front yard is looking great--very ornamental at this early stage.
To me, Pace comes in 4th of the four varieties mentioned.  There is also an Excalibur mamey that I am hoping to try this year.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: FloridaGreenMan on June 20, 2012, 09:23:18 PM
Pace is supposed to have a good flavor also, right?  R. Campbell recommended Lorito to me.  My Viejo in the front yard is looking great--very ornamental at this early stage.
To me, Pace comes in 4th of the four varieties mentioned.  There is also an Excalibur mamey that I am hoping to try this year.

I agree with you that Pace is at the bottom of the list.   
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: Hollywood on June 20, 2012, 09:53:25 PM
Really? Seņor Lara recommended the Pace to me, so that is what I got. Oh well, too late for me now! I did hear that Pantin is much slower.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: Patrick on June 20, 2012, 10:39:49 PM
I made a shake tonight with a Pace and it was out of this world.. No grit, awesome flavor.. Why the bad ratings??
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: MarinFla on June 21, 2012, 09:57:31 AM
Pace is supposed to have a good flavor also, right?  R. Campbell recommended Lorito to me.  My Viejo in the front yard is looking great--very ornamental at this early stage.
To me, Pace comes in 4th of the four varieties mentioned.  There is also an Excalibur mamey that I am hoping to try this year.

I agree with you that Pace is at the bottom of the list.   
What is at the top of the list?? Lorito?
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: bsbullie on June 21, 2012, 10:21:41 AM
I made a shake tonight with a Pace and it was out of this world.. No grit, awesome flavor.. Why the bad ratings??
Grit is not a factor but fiber, creaminess and taste are the determining factors that would put Pace at the bottom.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: bsbullie on June 21, 2012, 10:25:08 AM
Pace is supposed to have a good flavor also, right?  R. Campbell recommended Lorito to me.  My Viejo in the front yard is looking great--very ornamental at this early stage.
To me, Pace comes in 4th of the four varieties mentioned.  There is also an Excalibur mamey that I am hoping to try this year.

I agree with you that Pace is at the bottom of the list.   
What is at the top of the list?? Lorito?
I would put Lorito at the top and from what I tasted last week, Viejo a solid second.  The only problem I see with the Viejo is the fruit size is smaller.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: Cookie Monster on June 21, 2012, 11:46:19 AM
Interesting. I thought the Pace was superior in flavor even to the Pantin. The flavor of the pace is astounding; it has a sweet caramel flavor. Pablo Lara named the Pace after himself and his wife; the Pa are his first two initials and the Ce are the first two initials of his wife.

The Lara family is to mamey as the Zill family is to mangoes. They are the premier mamey grower here in South Florida. It's hard to ignore the recommendations of Pablo and Julian Lara.

The comment that Julian Lara made about the Viejo is that the flavor is variable. Some years it's sweet and others it's not. There was an FSHS article where the Viejo had the lowest brix of the cultivars tested for one year in particular. Seeing as how this winter was the warmest in umpteen years with only a dozen chill hours, it's likely that this year's Viejo crop was much sweeter than normal.

In addition to the astounding flavor of the pace, it bears outside of mango season. This is significant to me, since during mango season, lots of other fruits tend to rot because there is simply too much fruit for one family to eat in that two month period :-). So, I tend to seek after fruits that bear during other parts of the year.

Precocity is another significant factor here. I have a pantin that's now been in the ground for 6 years and looks to be setting its very first crop, which will be ready 12 months from now. With excellent soil, there's the possibility of getting a crop in a shorter period of time. But in general, it's not known to be quick to bear. The pace is said to be so precocious that it sometimes starts setting fruit in 7 gallon containers (~2 years old).

IFAS has a great article (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/mg331) comparing the various cultivars and their attributes.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: MarinFla on June 21, 2012, 12:25:04 PM
Interesting. I thought the Pace was superior in flavor even to the Pantin. The flavor of the pace is astounding; it has a sweet caramel flavor. Pablo Lara named the Pace after himself and his wife; the Pa are his first two initials and the Ce are the first two initials of his wife.

The Lara family is to mamey as the Zill family is to mangoes. They are the premier mamey grower here in South Florida. It's hard to ignore the recommendations of Pablo and Julian Lara.

The comment that Julian Lara made about the Viejo is that the flavor is variable. Some years it's sweet and others it's not. There was an FSHS article where the Viejo had the lowest brix of the cultivars tested for one year in particular. Seeing as how this winter was the warmest in umpteen years with only a dozen chill hours, it's likely that this year's Viejo crop was much sweeter than normal.

In addition to the astounding flavor of the pace, it bears outside of mango season. This is significant to me, since during mango season, lots of other fruits tend to rot because there is simply too much fruit for one family to eat in that two month period :-). So, I tend to seek after fruits that bear during other parts of the year.

Precocity is another significant factor here. I have a pantin that's now been in the ground for 6 years and looks to be setting its very first crop, which will be ready 12 months from now. With excellent soil, there's the possibility of getting a crop in a shorter period of time. But in general, it's not known to be quick to bear. The pace is said to be so precocious that it sometimes starts setting fruit in 7 gallon containers (~2 years old).

IFAS has a great article (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/mg331) comparing the various cultivars and their attributes.
Jeff, Thanks! that's a great article.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: bsbullie on June 21, 2012, 01:09:43 PM
Interesting. I thought the Pace was superior in flavor even to the Pantin. The flavor of the pace is astounding; it has a sweet caramel flavor. Pablo Lara named the Pace after himself and his wife; the Pa are his first two initials and the Ce are the first two initials of his wife.

The Lara family is to mamey as the Zill family is to mangoes. They are the premier mamey grower here in South Florida. It's hard to ignore the recommendations of Pablo and Julian Lara.

The comment that Julian Lara made about the Viejo is that the flavor is variable. Some years it's sweet and others it's not. There was an FSHS article where the Viejo had the lowest brix of the cultivars tested for one year in particular. Seeing as how this winter was the warmest in umpteen years with only a dozen chill hours, it's likely that this year's Viejo crop was much sweeter than normal.

In addition to the astounding flavor of the pace, it bears outside of mango season. This is significant to me, since during mango season, lots of other fruits tend to rot because there is simply too much fruit for one family to eat in that two month period :-). So, I tend to seek after fruits that bear during other parts of the year.

Precocity is another significant factor here. I have a pantin that's now been in the ground for 6 years and looks to be setting its very first crop, which will be ready 12 months from now. With excellent soil, there's the possibility of getting a crop in a shorter period of time. But in general, it's not known to be quick to bear. The pace is said to be so precocious that it sometimes starts setting fruit in 7 gallon containers (~2 years old).

IFAS has a great article (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/mg331) comparing the various cultivars and their attributes.
A lot of that is good reading but not sure if it is all correct.  I have harvested 5 Viejo within the last two months (and one was left to overripen on the tree by accident) whereas it shows December as the harvest period.  One of the Viejos I picked, which was extremely sweet and complex in flavor, can be confirmed by another forum member it was shared with (mikesid).  Since I had never had a Viejo before I cannot comment if this common as to their quality or whether the previous year's weather played a role.  Does each year's weather play a role in ripening, probably but I am not an expert on this to determine how or to what extent (I can only call 'em like I see 'em :) ).  Also, why is Lorito NOT on the list (hypothetical questions, of course, unless someone on this forum had a hand in compiling and writing the article)?

Also, having someone tout a fruit that they developed and named is great but I feel it must be taken with a certain grain of salt (whether it be Zills, Lara or Excalibur) for varying reasons.

The recommendations I have expressed are based on the fruit I have tasted.  I can not comment on more than that.  As to Pantin, I have had fruit from varying locations in both Miami-Dade and Palm Beach Counties.  Some that I had from a specific commercial "grove" in homestead were not as sweet and flavorful and actually were a little watery. 
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: Cookie Monster on June 21, 2012, 02:18:28 PM
Yes, yes. Those IFAS articles aren't always correct. And there is definitely some variability in terms of opinion.

The University of Puerto Rico did a study (http://136.145.83.33:8000/jspui/bitstream/10476/468/1/pag.11.pdf) on something like 26 mamey sapote cultivars and found that the cultivar with the lowest brix was viejo. But, not everybody (especially gringos) takes brix level into account. So Julian's complaint about low sugar content seems to be accurate.

The argument of nurseries promoting products bearing their name certainly warrants consideration. However, what's odd in this case is the fact that Lara Farms doesn't promote nor propagate the only mamey cultivar which bears their name (ie, the 'Lara'), despite the high recommendation given by IFAS (Dr Crane?). I doubt that many people even knew the origin of the name Pace. I had to ask Julian to find out.

A lot of that is good reading but not sure if it is all correct.  I have harvested 5 Viejo within the last two months (and one was left to overripen on the tree by accident) whereas it shows December as the harvest period.  One of the Viejos I picked, which was extremely sweet and complex in flavor, can be confirmed by another forum member it was shared with (mikesid).  Since I had never had a Viejo before I cannot comment if this common as to their quality or whether the previous year's weather played a role.  Does each year's weather play a role in ripening, probably but I am not an expert on this to determine how or to what extent (I can only call 'em like I see 'em :) ).  Also, why is Lorito NOT on the list (hypothetical questions, of course, unless someone on this forum had a hand in compiling and writing the article)?

Also, having someone tout a fruit that they developed and named is great but I feel it must be taken with a certain grain of salt (whether it be Zills, Lara or Excalibur) for varying reasons.

The recommendations I have expressed are based on the fruit I have tasted.  I can not comment on more than that.  As to Pantin, I have had fruit from varying locations in both Miami-Dade and Palm Beach Counties.  Some that I had from a specific commercial "grove" in homestead were not as sweet and flavorful and actually were a little watery.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: Patrick on June 21, 2012, 02:35:00 PM
Had another Pace shake at my lunch break today.. Must say I like it better than the others I brought home from Homestead last weekend.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: Hollywood on June 21, 2012, 02:48:08 PM
Yesterday I ate a mamey I bought at the Redlands festival last weekend and it was AMAZING. I wish I had asked which variety it was--it was at the entry tent with all the fruit for sale...anyone know what it was?

I ended up going with the Pace for my tree after research and talks with nurserymen, for all the reasons Jeff listed.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: gunnar429 on December 20, 2014, 05:22:54 PM
I have a Pantin mamey in a 3g waiting for me to find it a spot.  Today, when i was watering it, I discovered it's loaded with flowers.  I know Pantin is not precocious, but is it normal for it to flower before the long wait (just curious)?

If the flowers set fruit, how many should I let the tree hold  ::) ;D  Kidding
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: bsbullie on December 20, 2014, 10:12:15 PM
I have a Pantin mamey in a 3g waiting for me to find it a spot.  Today, when i was watering it, I discovered it's loaded with flowers.  I know Pantin is not precocious, but is it normal for it to flower before the long wait (just curious)?

If the flowers set fruit, how many should I let the tree hold  ::) ;D  Kidding

I have seen a Pantin grafted onto canistel that flowered  within a year of grafting.  While it flowered it set no fruit.  Dont bother with worrying about letting it hold fruit, most likely wont but if it initially does, just let it play out.  It will drop it naturally unless the plant is able to hold it for the duration. As far as worrying about stunting it, itas a mamey so stunting it may not be a bad idea.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: Doglips on December 21, 2014, 08:47:18 AM
Since Mameys take so long to get from flower to fruit, do they bare in alternate years, or are there flowers and almost mature fruit on the tree at the same time?
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: bsbullie on December 21, 2014, 09:12:30 AM
Since Mameys take so long to get from flower to fruit, do they bare in alternate years, or are there flowers and almost mature fruit on the tree at the same time?

once the tree is mature and producing, both fruits and flowers are on the tree at the same time.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: Cookie Monster on December 21, 2014, 02:13:05 PM
Mamey sapote will flower shortly (year or so) after being grafted. I believe this is because the budwood still "thinks" it's on a big tree  -- it is still on the "rhythm" of the mother tree. It will drop the flowers / tiny fruitlets and grow. In good growing conditions, you would probably expect your first mature fruit in about another 5 years. It's worth the wait though, since mamey sapote is incredibly delicious.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: alexgardens on December 22, 2014, 12:20:00 PM
Cookie Monster: is there no English translation of the University of Puerto Rico study? Which cultivar of the 26 did the find to have the highest BRIX?
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: Cookie Monster on December 23, 2014, 07:02:02 PM
Not sure, I haven't seen the PR study.

Cookie Monster: is there no English translation of the University of Puerto Rico study? Which cultivar of the 26 did the find to have the highest BRIX?
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: alexgardens on December 30, 2014, 04:23:04 PM
Ok, well how about a translation for that link you posted earlier (an abstract to a study maybe?). I found this abstract (link below) on six different cultivars, but am yet to see an analysis of 26.

http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/22/2/263.abstract (http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/22/2/263.abstract)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: Cookie Monster on January 02, 2015, 12:33:42 AM
Ohh duh, sorry about that. I had totally forgotten that I posted that.

The abstract (http://136.145.83.33:8000/jspui/bitstream/10476/468/1/pag.11.pdf (http://136.145.83.33:8000/jspui/bitstream/10476/468/1/pag.11.pdf)) says that the brix ranged from 19.52 to 27.54, the viejo at the low end and one called "felipe mayo" at the high end. The viejo was most productive, with an average of 5.6 fruits per tree per month -- however production in terms of weight was a mere 21.92 kg per tree. On the other hand, a cultivar called "adelantado #2" showed a production of 4 fruits per tree per month but with an average production weight per tree of 42.64.

So, in terms of raw brix, the winner was felipe mayo (never heard of it).
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: alexgardens on January 02, 2015, 11:30:30 AM
That's fine! Thanks Cookie Monster! Wonder why felipe mayo is not catching on more? Looks like Fairchild has it. If you look at the link below there's a table on the fifth page that say Fairchild has that variety.

http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/2004-vol-117/195-200.pdf (http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/2004-vol-117/195-200.pdf)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: Cookie Monster on January 03, 2015, 11:43:14 AM
If it's worth growing here in FL, then the titans of mamey sapote in FL -- Lara Farms -- would have it. You should check with them.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Sapote
Post by: BigIslandGrower on January 03, 2015, 07:58:49 PM
Interesting. I thought the Pace was superior in flavor even to the Pantin. The flavor of the pace is astounding; it has a sweet caramel flavor...

In that case, I'm looking forward to mine getting big enough to produce.  I love Pantin.  My only other tree is a Magana, which is terrible IMO-at least grown on Windward Hawaii.