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Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on May 20, 2012, 12:52:18 PM

Title: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on May 20, 2012, 12:52:18 PM
Hi to all :),

I wanted to know how long does a polyembryonic mango grown from seeds take to produce?

Any inputs...are all welcome ;)

Thanks in advance :)
Steven S.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on May 20, 2012, 01:19:35 PM
Hi Steve with proper conditions it takes about 5 years, but it can vary between 3 to 8 years depending on growing conditions.

Hi Enduser,
That's awesome. I thought that the poly. mangos will take as long as the mono. mangos to produce.

Have you grown poly. mangos from seed?

Thanks for your input :)

Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: zands on May 20, 2012, 01:21:03 PM
Hi to all :),

I wanted to know how long does a polyembryonic mango grown from seeds take to produce?

Any inputs...are all welcome ;)

Thanks in advance :)
Steven S.

Are you sprouting some poly seeds or is this theoretical? California guys can correct me but LaVerne nursery there gets Philippine (poly from seed) mangoes to the stores quickly and they produce mangoes soon...my guess is 4 years from seed to mango making. You want to accelerate your mango tree out of juvenility and into (adulthood) mango production then tipping does this. For poly or mono. I have a mono seedling growing I should be branch tipping right now
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on May 20, 2012, 01:40:15 PM
Hi to all :),

I wanted to know how long does a polyembryonic mango grown from seeds take to produce?

Any inputs...are all welcome ;)

Thanks in advance :)
Steven S.

Are you sprouting some poly seeds or is this theoretical? California guys can correct me but LaVerne nursery there gets Philippine (poly from seed) mangoes to the stores quickly and they produce mangoes soon...my guess is 4 years from seed to mango making. You want to accelerate your mango tree out of juvenility and into (adulthood) mango production then tipping does this. For poly or mono. I have a mono seedling growing I should be branch tipping right now

Hi Zands,
I'm going to get some poly. seeds from excellent mango varieties this year.

Thanks for your input and the tip :) I was also thinking of inarching the mangos to speed up the growth.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on May 20, 2012, 01:50:38 PM
Hi Steve with proper conditions it takes about 5 years, but it can vary between 3 to 8 years depending on growing conditions.

Hi Enduser,
That's awesome. I thought that the poly. mangos will take as long as the mono. mangos to produce.

Have you grown poly. mangos from seed?

Thanks for your input :)

Steven from my personal experience it made no difference if they were mono or poly. Both produce at about the same time. My family members do plant mangoes from seed and I have seen the results that I stated. I do not let any of my seedlings reach adulthood since I use them for rootstock. I find that the Tommy's produce strong healthy rootstocks.

Enduser,
Growing monos are a bit of a gamble...but, there is alway's a chance of getting a keeper. I would prefer poly. since they are true to type.

I have grown several keitts, Palmer's, and Tommies for rootstocks...your right about the Tommy, it sure does produce a strong healthy rootstock for grafting.

Thanks again :)
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: zands on May 20, 2012, 05:23:46 PM
A poly seed puts up about 6 sprouts... I sprouted my first last year but lost track of that experiment. They say to pick the strongest sprout and kill the others and the strongest will grow true to the original fruit. The weaker sprouts less so. These days I think they can test (DNA?) the best sprout you picked and see if it does indeed match the original fruit. That modern nurseries do this. Previously the best was picked by looks, vibes, and growers experience.

I think it was JF  (Fernandez) who a month ago posted a photo of 4 young mango stalks growing close together. This was a poly seed that he did not cull the weaker sprouts from. They looked very good. If I had enough room I would make a 40 foot row or hedge of this and see what happens. Maybe you have enough room. A neighbor has a very productive Philippine mango (poly) tree. I am going to be asking him for seeds to try out the JF way. My older trees are all mono. My younger trees are mostly poly  (for those who don't know the poly Mangoes are SE Asia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines while mono seeds are the ones from India/Pakistan and most Florida mangoes because 90% of them are of India/Pakistan heritage)

I was also thinking of inarching the mangos to speed up the growth.

Definitely worth a try....you can find original pages from Philippines on this. I have not tried it. It costs you nothing just start spouting mangoes.
http://secretgardenofdoris.com/quality-exotic-fruit-trees/mango-doublerootstock/ (http://secretgardenofdoris.com/quality-exotic-fruit-trees/mango-doublerootstock/)

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=252798 (http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=252798)


Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fruitlovers on May 20, 2012, 11:27:49 PM
Hi Steven, i have one poly mango i grew from seed--just because it was the only way i could bring it in. It is a cultivar called Harumanis, from Malaysia, there widely considered the best tasting of mangos. As Zands pointed out, the poly seed will produce several sprouts, not all will be poly, some could be mono. Usually the most vigorous sprout is considered the clone. I planted the 2 most vigorous sprouts in one hole. This double tree has been growing great guns for about 9 years, but never flowered. Never, that is, until just now! Let's see if it finally fruits?
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on May 21, 2012, 10:26:59 AM
A poly seed puts up about 6 sprouts... I sprouted my first last year but lost track of that experiment. They say to pick the strongest sprout and kill the others and the strongest will grow true to the original fruit. The weaker sprouts less so. These days I think they can test (DNA?) the best sprout you picked and see if it does indeed match the original fruit. That modern nurseries do this. Previously the best was picked by looks, vibes, and growers experience.

I think it was JF  (Fernandez) who a month ago posted a photo of 4 young mango stalks growing close together. This was a poly seed that he did not cull the weaker sprouts from. They looked very good. If I had enough room I would make a 40 foot row or hedge of this and see what happens. Maybe you have enough room. A neighbor has a very productive Philippine mango (poly) tree. I am going to be asking him for seeds to try out the JF way. My older trees are all mono. My younger trees are mostly poly  (for those who don't know the poly Mangoes are SE Asia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines while mono seeds are the ones from India/Pakistan and most Florida mangoes because 90% of them are of India/Pakistan heritage)

I was also thinking of inarching the mangos to speed up the growth.

Definitely worth a try....you can find original pages from Philippines on this. I have not tried it. It costs you nothing just start spouting mangoes.
http://secretgardenofdoris.com/quality-exotic-fruit-trees/mango-doublerootstock/ (http://secretgardenofdoris.com/quality-exotic-fruit-trees/mango-doublerootstock/)

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=252798 (http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=252798)




Hi Zands,
Your right about choosing the most vigorous seedling for ''true to type''. I was a bit confused about this matter...Because, some say the weakest seedling must be chosen...other say the most vigorous seedling must be chosen?. On futher reseach, I came to the conclusion that vigorous seedling will be true to type and the weaker ones will be ''off types''

Multi-root technology is truly fascinating 8) Bernardo Dizon was the source for my inspiration to do multi-root grafting, after finding his website about 4 years ago...I done this method for white sapote, which is growing fast and very well.

Fruit trees will definitely benefit from a multi-root graft and since they have more that one root system...the extra roots will help them to grow faster, less time for production and more wind tolerant.

Thank you so much for the links...they were awesome!!!! :)

Here's Bernardo Dizon new website...don't know what happended to the old one.
http://www.dizonexoticfruittrees.com/ref/technology.htm (http://www.dizonexoticfruittrees.com/ref/technology.htm)
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: zands on May 21, 2012, 10:31:32 AM
Hi Steven, i have one poly mango i grew from seed--just because it was the only way i could bring it in. It is a cultivar called Harumanis, from Malaysia, there widely considered the best tasting of mangos. As Zands pointed out, the poly seed will produce several sprouts, not all will be poly, some could be mono. Usually the most vigorous sprout is considered the clone. I planted the 2 most vigorous sprouts in one hole. This double tree has been growing great guns for about 9 years, but never flowered. Never, that is, until just now! Let's see if it finally fruits?

That's a long time. LaVerne nursery is the poly seed king. They specialize in seedling (not grafted) Philippine mangoes. My guess is from planting the seed to selling the plant at Home Depot etc takes 3 years. You are then getting 5-10 mangoes two years after you plant it. So that would be five years from seed planting to getting decent number of fruits
MangoDog would know more since he has one that did great.

One Florida guy posted a photo of a mango seedling tree bearing good fruit after 5 years. That is as good as it gets. One problem with mono-seedling trees is they put out some very variable size fruits. Such as you see three nice normal size mangoes coming along with many smaller ones...... and do the runty ones ripen? They probably do but you get high seed to flesh ratio. I'm saying the tree allocates resources unevenly. This is just a theory from trees I have seen
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: zands on May 21, 2012, 10:37:36 AM


Here's Bernardo Dizon new website...don't know what happended to the old one. I saw the old site. Hard to navigate but had great photos of his double rootstock trees
http://www.dizonexoticfruittrees.com/ref/technology.htm (http://www.dizonexoticfruittrees.com/ref/technology.htm)


Bernardo Dizon is the man!! No doubt about it. I like clever guys who think originally and put their theory into reality. Fairchild Gardens should pay his plane fare to come to the Mango Festival but I doubt that will ever happen. Mangoes are a serious business in the Philippines, people depend on it for their livelihood. Mangoes for export and for internal consumption. They try all kinds of chemical tricks there like the Taiwanese will do to get the mango tree bearing every year instead biennially http://themangofactory.com/mango-articles2/blooming-and-pollination/ (http://themangofactory.com/mango-articles2/blooming-and-pollination/)

Like I said, $$$$$ is at stake they are not dilettantes and not fooling around. Bernardo Dizon is a participant because he claims his double rootstock mango will bear sooner and heavier. A mango grove owner would be very interested in this

Here's Bernardo Dizon new website...don't know what happened to the old one.

I saw the old site. Hard to navigate but had great photos of his double rootstock trees
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on May 21, 2012, 10:49:14 AM
Hi Steven, i have one poly mango i grew from seed--just because it was the only way i could bring it in. It is a cultivar called Harumanis, from Malaysia, there widely considered the best tasting of mangos. As Zands pointed out, the poly seed will produce several sprouts, not all will be poly, some could be mono. Usually the most vigorous sprout is considered the clone. I planted the 2 most vigorous sprouts in one hole. This double tree has been growing great guns for about 9 years, but never flowered. Never, that is, until just now! Let's see if it finally fruits?

Hi Oscar,
I checked out Harumanis mango on the web. sure is an excellent mango...nice golden coloured flesh 8)

Fingers crossed...hope you get fruit's soon ;) 9 years sure is a long time...next time you should try to inarch the trees to speed up the growth :) That's what I'm going to do with the poly mangos.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: zands on May 21, 2012, 10:59:03 AM


Hi Oscar,
I checked out Harumanis mango on the web. sure is an excellent mango...nice golden coloured flesh 8)

Fingers crossed...hope you get fruit's soon ;) 9 years sure is a long time...next time you should try to inarch the trees to speed up the growth :) That's what I'm going to do with the poly mangos.

The great mango scam is that just about all mangoes are mid-season. So if you have 5-10 different mango trees you get a gold rush of different tastes but the fruits are coming in pretty much the same time. I know it is difficult for you to acquire but I would try to get a Rosigold for early mango and a Gold Nugget, Keitt or Neelam for late. Who knows. With your poly seed experiments maybe you will come up with an early or late mango. I do have those late mangoes but missed the boat on Rosigold and am now out of room. My early tree is Glenn and I'll have first bite in a few days, but it has edible fruit 30 days after Rosigold, going by what SW Rancher posted about his Rosigold tree

Since all ripe backyard mangoes taste good to me....my logic that when the mango is ripe to eat is more important than the variety. Though it is good to have a mix of mono-seed and poly-seed trees. This means a mix of trees of India/Pakistan origin and those of IndoChinese origin
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: behlgarden on May 21, 2012, 11:08:04 AM
I have a poly seed in pot right now waiting to sprout. it was Altufo from Costco. Plan is to do what JF did.

Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: zands on May 21, 2012, 11:36:26 AM
I have a poly seed in pot right now waiting to sprout. it was Altufo from Costco. Plan is to do what JF did.

Great idea. JF's plants looked very good and dang I threw out two Atulfo seeds!

Here for everyone is the pdf which I would save onto my computer...... How tip pruning gets your mango trees fruiting sooner  (http://www.aalfs.org/descargas/7.pdf)due to shortening the years it spends in juvenility (as a juvenile, as a boy or girl). And starts fruiting as an adult mango tree sooner

IN ADDITION:Grafting mangoes also makes the tree bypass and skip some of the juvenile years  that seedling trees must go through. So grafted gets you mango fruits sooner
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on May 21, 2012, 11:59:13 AM
Zands,
I definitely want to improve my mango collection...Tommy Atkins ain't kick'n for me anymore.

I ordered some grafted mangos from the nursery last year...due to few takes...I will get them later in the season.
I will get Keitt, Rosa, Glenn, and Osteen...maybe, I will also get Anderson. but, it has a tendency to split on the tree.

Is Osteen a good var.?

Awesome links BTW!!! I'm learning alot from you....Thanks :)


Hi Oscar,
I checked out Harumanis mango on the web. sure is an excellent mango...nice golden coloured flesh 8)

Fingers crossed...hope you get fruit's soon ;) 9 years sure is a long time...next time you should try to inarch the trees to speed up the growth :) That's what I'm going to do with the poly mangos.

The great mango scam is that just about all mangoes are mid-season. So if you have 5-10 different mango trees you get a gold rush of different tastes but the fruits are coming in pretty much the same time. I know it is difficult for you to acquire but I would try to get a Rosigold for early mango and a Gold Nugget, Keitt or Neelam for late. Who knows. With your poly seed experiments maybe you will come up with an early or late mango. I do have those late mangoes but missed the boat on Rosigold and am now out of room. My early tree is Glenn and I'll have first bite in a few days, but it has edible fruit 30 days after Rosigold, going by what SW Rancher posted about his Rosigold tree

Since all ripe backyard mangoes taste good to me....my logic that when the mango is ripe to eat is more important than the variety. Though it is good to have a mix of mono-seed and poly-seed trees. This means a mix of trees of India/Pakistan origin and those of IndoChinese origin
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Future on May 21, 2012, 12:50:24 PM
Thanks for the PDF on tip pruning and the reference to time to fruit from seed.  I had seen much on it, mostly from Fairchild, but none that I recalll referencing time to fruit from seed.  This is a must for me as I live in a country that is very very difficult to get grafted trees.  Tipping was always spoken of for maximum production but time to fruit....good one.  Time to start tipping again....
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fruitlovers on May 21, 2012, 05:48:30 PM
I bought some Osteen mangos here. They were quite large, like a Keitt, very nice dark red colored. Taste was good but not remarkable. What was remarkable is how early in the season the fruits were available. I don't know how this local farmer got them to fruit so early? I think it was  March when i bought them.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: zands on May 21, 2012, 09:06:37 PM
Zands,
I definitely want to improve my mango collection...Tommy Atkins ain't kick'n for me anymore.

I ordered some grafted mangos from the nursery last year...due to few takes...I will get them later in the season.
I will get Keitt, Rosa, Glenn, and Osteen...maybe, I will also get Anderson. but, it has a tendency to split on the tree.

Is Osteen a good var.?

Awesome links BTW!!! I'm learning alot from you....Thanks :)


You are very welcome and dittos for poster "Future" in Bahamas!!! I know nothing about Osteen mango and don't hear much about it in Florida. Glenn is good early mango just getting my first ones now. Keitt is good for late season mango, just be able to protect it from the squirrels and don't plant it where people might steal it. Plant it in a protected area. Keitt fruits are large and look ripe with some red and purple on top for 50 days before they really are ripe so they tempt thieves

Don't give up on your young Tommy Atkins. He will probably turn out great where you are with your clay soil. A big rare fruit guru here has a Tommy Atkins in his yard.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fruitlovers on May 21, 2012, 11:47:44 PM
Steven and Zands, there was a thread about Osteen earlier when i asked about it. Apparently it's fairly popular in Europe, was developed in Florida--i think Merritt Island?
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Guanabanus on May 21, 2012, 11:53:04 PM
In the 1990's, two or three other persons and I looked over 40,000-80,000 gallon pots, each with a Turpentine polyembryonic seed in it, to remove off-types and weaklings, and to transplant some of the better extras.
One year genetic testing was done to check on our decision making about the more similar-looking ones, not the grossly obvious ones.   The nursery owner and I both got better than 80%.

Often the strongest-looking ones are off-types.  Of course, grossly contorted ones and chlorotic ones and strangely colored ones and greasy-leafed ones are usually off-types.

The early strength of mango seedlings is largely determined by embryo (seed) size--- so early vigor is neutral for determining standard (a.k.a. type or "pure") versus off-type Turpentines.  Nurserys that prefer the biggest seedlings are "keeping it simple" for their own immediate convenience, but many of these plants will no longer be vigorous when they run out of food stored in the seed.

A "type" (think of "typical") is a clone of the mother tree and does not have a father (pollen grain).

An off-type is produced by sex--- even when a tree has sex between its own flowers, variation is produced.

On the market one can find Nam Doc Mai #4 and others--- which variations presumably are off-types which arose by Nam Doc Mai trees' self-pollinating.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fruitlovers on May 21, 2012, 11:59:10 PM
In the 1990's, two or three other persons and I looked over 40,000-80,000 gallon pots, each with a Turpentine polyembryonic seed in it, to remove off-types and weaklings, and to transplant some of the better extras.
One year genetic testing was done to check on our decision making about the more similar-looking ones, not the grossly obvious ones.   The nursery owner and I both got better than 80%.

Often the strongest-looking ones are off-types.  Of course, grossly contorted ones and chlorotic ones and strangely colored ones and greasy-leafed ones are usually off-types.

The early strength of mango seedlings is largely determined by embryo (seed) size--- so early vigor is neutral for determining standard (a.k.a. type or "pure") versus off-type Turpentines.  Nurserys that prefer the biggest seedlings are "keeping it simple" for their own immediate convenience, but many of these plants will no longer be vigorous when they run out of food stored in the seed.

A "type" (think of "typical") is a clone of the mother tree and does not have a father (pollen grain).

An off-type is produced by sex--- even when a tree has sex between its own flowers, variation is produced.

On the market one can find Nam Doc Mai #4 and others--- which variations presumably are off-types which arose by Nam Doc Mai trees' self-pollinating.

That is why i planted 2 of the Harumanis poly seed sprouts into the one hole. I wasn't sure that the most vigorous was really the clonal material. I picked 2 to improve my odds of really getting the Harumanis.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: zands on May 22, 2012, 12:14:26 AM
That is why i planted 2 of the Harumanis poly seed sprouts into the one hole. I wasn't sure that the most vigorous was really the clonal material. I picked 2 to improve my odds of really getting the Harumanis.

Nine years....That's when Brittany Spears was a big deal and the Rolling Stones were still touring....but I digress....
The easy lazy bet on your "Double Fantasy" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Fantasy) tree is this year flowers, next year fruit
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on May 22, 2012, 03:43:39 PM
Hi,
@Oscar- Osteen sure looks like an excellent fruit...nearly fiberless and has a mild yet sweet flavor 8)
              Never knew it was popular in Europe...until now. But, it's really funny...I have never seen them for sale here :(
              I found this pic from wikipedia.
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd365/Moonshadow69/450px-Mango_Osteen_Asit_ftg.jpg)

@Zands-Thanks for the advice :) I don't have much problems with fruit thieves here. But, I will plant the trees where nobody can access them ;)
             Won't remove Tommy since it was my first grafted mango tree I bought...but, will see how it goes...

@Har- Great to have you aboard...I'm also learning alot from you :) Thanks for your input ;)
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: MangoFang on May 22, 2012, 04:04:35 PM
Zands - what you say is close to the truth.  My Home Depot Manila took a couple years to get my first mango - maybe even 3 years, and after that it was fruiting at a squared rate of production up until last year's 66 (It's about 8 years old or 8 1/2  now from the time I got it - with the extra 3 years LaVerne had it, that would make it between 11 and 12)

Behl - i've got 4 sprouted Costco Ataulfos and they each only produced a single shoot!  Are you sure there not Mono-embryonic?


Fanged


PS - yeah that Osteen gets some whistles from me, too!
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: behlgarden on May 22, 2012, 04:50:36 PM
Gary, I actually opened up the mango shell completely and found 3 to 4 round seeds closely glued together, its 100% sure multiple seeds/embriyos. Other manogo seeds when opened up show only one seed inside.

Am I missing something? I will open one today and post picture. I am pretty sure in polyembriyonic mangoes there are miltiple small round seeds inside that hard shell.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: behlgarden on May 23, 2012, 01:31:48 AM
Interesting. Time to buy real asian manila mango.so.it could be seeded.  How about seeding 4 poly and then combine themost vigrous from each and then inarch them? Thats my plan.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: behlgarden on May 23, 2012, 12:16:40 PM
Gary, I am disappointed to report that my seeds also apper to be mono. I am about to get a sprout soon and if its only one sprout, I will not be allowed to live. I am going to asian market this noon to get real poly mango!
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: MangoFang on May 23, 2012, 03:32:12 PM
well....behl.....sorry about that news......so the Manila's, which I've NEVER sprouted after eating, should be poly?



gary
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: zands on May 23, 2012, 04:04:53 PM
well....behl.....sorry about that news......so the Manila's, which I've NEVER sprouted after eating, should be poly?



gary


P not M! Ask JF
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: behlgarden on May 23, 2012, 04:10:27 PM
Yes, all Manila mangoes including Altufo, Changange, etc. are suppose to be Poly! I picked up 3 manila mangoes from supermarket today, so I can eat, more so sprout! LOL  Also got 20 lbs of delicious lychees for $43
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: zands on May 23, 2012, 04:27:16 PM
Yes, all Manila mangoes including Altufo, Changange, etc. are suppose to be Poly! I picked up 3 manila mangoes from supermarket today, so I can eat, more so sprout! LOL  Also got 20 lbs of delicious lychees for $43

You got better lychee deal than LycheeLuva he will not be happy
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: behlgarden on May 23, 2012, 04:30:40 PM
I would have gotten 40 lbs for $75, but I wanted to see how fast my two monsters can clean 20 lbs. it will be on the dinner table tonight!
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Charlie23 on May 23, 2012, 04:37:05 PM
i take it no one has successfully fruited an ataulfo mango tree grown from seed yet still right? i grew some last year, guess i got a few more years to go..
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: zands on May 23, 2012, 05:23:57 PM
I would have gotten 40 lbs for $75, but I wanted to see how fast my two monsters can clean 20 lbs. it will be on the dinner table tonight!

Teach them young what real food is!
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: behlgarden on May 23, 2012, 05:44:20 PM
My kids love them! I remember last year combined they went thru 3 lbs in a day! Right now they are doping on mangoes! LOL, they ate half of all our Cherimoya, green peas off the vine, and dont let tomatoes get red on the plant.  Not trying to sabotage the thread.

Back to Mangoes! I will plant my Poly Manila today!
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Tim on May 23, 2012, 05:52:32 PM
Quote
Teach them young what real food is!

lmao... you know, to some people, they seem to think i'm corrupting young minds  ;D ;D ;D
I've introduced countless tropical fruits to my "acquaintances" and so far, luckily, none have a negative comment on anything.  They seem more eager, if anything, to explore the unknown tropical fruit world that's oblivious to the norm.  Only the passive observers have anything negative to say, which to me is hilarious because they refuse to try but always have something to say.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fruitlovers on May 23, 2012, 06:06:40 PM
Quote
Teach them young what real food is!

lmao... you know, to some people, they seem to think i'm corrupting young minds  ;D ;D ;D
I've introduced countless tropical fruits to my "acquaintances" and so far, luckily, none have a negative comment on anything.  They seem more eager, if anything, to explore the unknown tropical fruit world that's oblivious to the norm.  Only the passive observers have anything negative to say, which to me is hilarious because they refuse to try but always have something to say.

Careful! That was the charge against Socrates: corrupting the youth. Sentence was: exile or death. Socrates chose death! But i don't think you or Socrates have corrputed anyone, quite the contrary!  :)
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: behlgarden on June 07, 2012, 11:08:43 AM
well....behl.....sorry about that news......so the Manila's, which I've NEVER sprouted after eating, should be poly?



gary

Gary, I sowed two Alfufo seeds, one from Costco and one from Asian Market. One from Costco sprouted one seedling quickly and now I see two more, so I got 3 seedlings sprouting. I may get the 4th one here as well within a few days.

(http://s15.postimage.org/3qzdhehfb/Poly.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3qzdhehfb/)

 
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Mike T on June 07, 2012, 03:45:07 PM
All the preferred mango varieties here are polys and routinely seed grown.Commercial growers often prefer to plant KP seedlings.Sam ru du, the massive fruiting cedar bay/rabaul,keow saewoy,rad,okrung and many other preferred cultivars seem to fruit pretty true and are seed grown quite often.Nurseries give the choice of grafted or seedlings for many polys.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: behlgarden on June 07, 2012, 03:48:29 PM
I am doing it for experiment. I want to in arch graft the hell out of it next year
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Tim on July 06, 2012, 07:02:19 PM
Har - if I was to remove the outer husk of a polyembryonic seed, separate all the embryos - is it safe to assume "most of the times" the off-type is the biggest embryo within that husk?

In the 1990's, two or three other persons and I looked over 40,000-80,000 gallon pots, each with a Turpentine polyembryonic seed in it, to remove off-types and weaklings, and to transplant some of the better extras.
One year genetic testing was done to check on our decision making about the more similar-looking ones, not the grossly obvious ones.   The nursery owner and I both got better than 80%.

Often the strongest-looking ones are off-types.  Of course, grossly contorted ones and chlorotic ones and strangely colored ones and greasy-leafed ones are usually off-types.

The early strength of mango seedlings is largely determined by embryo (seed) size--- so early vigor is neutral for determining standard (a.k.a. type or "pure") versus off-type Turpentines.  Nurserys that prefer the biggest seedlings are "keeping it simple" for their own immediate convenience, but many of these plants will no longer be vigorous when they run out of food stored in the seed.

A "type" (think of "typical") is a clone of the mother tree and does not have a father (pollen grain).

An off-type is produced by sex--- even when a tree has sex between its own flowers, variation is produced.

On the market one can find Nam Doc Mai #4 and others--- which variations presumably are off-types which arose by Nam Doc Mai trees' self-pollinating.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Tropicdude on July 06, 2012, 10:53:50 PM
Manila : I was given one of these during the Mango Fest, and I planted the seed, it sprouted in 5 days ! I planted it in a 1 gallon fabric pot, and plan to do that double root thingy with it.

Osteen: I tried one during the same event, it wasnt ripe yet, but was mild, sweet, and firm, I like the texture of this mango, but I want to try a whole, fully ripe Osteen.   this tree is on a genoplasm reserve, and I asked the owner, which variety out of all the varieties he has he thought would be the best in taste and for commercial farming,  he recommended the Osteen.

This week i will be planting a lot more seeds from the "Banilejo" variety which are now in season, these are the locals favorites, they are also Poly, and used as rootstock for other varieties. they are decent, but small, thin skinned, the flesh is firm and very sweet, there is some fiber around the seed. I have been eating 2 a day for seeds haha.   want to have enough of these planted to use for practicing all the grafting techniques written about in here, including the stone graft and double rooting etc.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fruitlovers on July 06, 2012, 11:18:18 PM
Somebody locally is producing Osteen mangos for sale. I would put them on par with Florigon as far as taste. They both have a nice, but very mild taste, not full bodied mango taste. But the Osteen wins hands down on attractive exterior coloration. The Osteen fruits for sale were really huge, some in 4-5 pound size. Was also really bizarre to see these mangos for sale in March! I'm still trying to figure out how that was possible??
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on July 09, 2012, 03:42:07 PM
Hi,

I got some poly mangoes running already...Okrung, Carabao, Thong dam and Nam doc mai 8) I will post pics soon.

My observations on these poly mangoes...Thong Dam and Okrung are very vigorous with very thick healthy shoots 8) Carabao and Nam doc mai also look great...not as vigorous as Thong Dam and Okrung...all of them have several shoots 8)   
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fyliu on July 09, 2012, 04:11:32 PM
Regarding clone vs. Off type in poly embryonic, from basic high school bio in 1997, in polyembryonic scenario the ovule splits a couple of times forming several embryos. Only one gets fertilized and the others are clones.

The one that's fertilized is usually the strongest due to it's being attached to the cotyledons for a much larger nutrient reservoir. Clones can vary in size and are not attached to anything. Clone tissue can sometimes get pretty big but that's not the norm.

Find out the "hybrid" by separating the seedlings and look for the one attached to cotyledons.

Isn't having the clones being stronger than fertilized embryo too good to be true? If that were the case wouldn't polyembryonic plants become all clones in the end due to weak "hybrids"? I encourage people to grow out the most vigorous seedlings and see whether they turn out superior to the mother tree. Good luck! :)
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: HMHausman on July 09, 2012, 04:32:59 PM
Regarding clone vs. Off type in poly embryonic, from basic high school bio in 1997, in polyembryonic scenario the ovule splits a couple of times forming several embryos. Only one gets fertilized and the others are clones.

The one that's fertilized is usually the strongest due to it's being attached to the cotyledons for a much larger nutrient reservoir. Clones can vary in size and are not attached to anything. Clone tissue can sometimes get pretty big but that's not the norm.

Find out the "hybrid" by separating the seedlings and look for the one attached to cotyledons.

Isn't having the clones being stronger than fertilized embryo too good to be true? If that were the case wouldn't polyembryonic plants become all clones in the end due to weak "hybrids"? I encourage people to grow out the most vigorous seedlings and see whether they turn out superior to the mother tree. Good luck! :)

I cannot prove the accuracy of this, but it was always my understanding and belief that the most vigorous was most often the sexually produced sprout.  I usually do the "which one of these is not like the others....which one doesn't belong" method of trying to separate the sexually from the asexually produced sprouts.  However, it is not a fool proof method.

Harry
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Tropicdude on July 09, 2012, 06:41:48 PM
Zygotes and clones it seems all confusing to me  :-\ knowing which is which. ok so in general the 1st or more vigorous sprout is NOT the clone, but the zygote.

the clones are the weaker secondary shoots ,,  correct?

This link kind of confirms this, but just wanted to know what peoples real experiences are.  seems some varieties are not as clear cut as that.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-29452006000300025&script=sci_arttext (http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-29452006000300025&script=sci_arttext)

I have a question,  once you have decided on which shoot to keep, whats the safest way to get rid of the others, do I just cut them off? should I do it close to the seed or higher up?
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: nullzero on July 09, 2012, 07:25:11 PM
Been trying to find a source for poly mango variety seeds.... if anyone knows please message me.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fyliu on July 09, 2012, 08:29:16 PM
Harry and tropicdude, yes that's exactly what I was trying to say. Nature favors the sexually produced sprout both by chance in random gene mixing and by extra nutrients in the form of attached cotyledons. There are still only 2 cotyledons in a polyembryonic seed and the fertilized embryo gets both of them.

But to add complication to the matter, what occasionally happens is the original ovule doesn't split evenly and you end up with a big piece of clone mother tissue with some smaller pieces. In that case the clone sprout can be more vigorous, but it's not common.

The only way to be absolutely sure is to take the seed apart. Let it germinate but loosen and separate the pieces in a bucket of water before the roots get entangled.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Tim on July 09, 2012, 09:05:27 PM
So what's what in this picture of the two halves from a Sia Tong seed?

(http://s12.postimage.org/47so6axqx/20120709_174759.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/47so6axqx/)
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: HMHausman on July 09, 2012, 09:07:13 PM
They look like clones to me.

Harry
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fyliu on July 09, 2012, 09:43:47 PM
I look for the one with umbilical cords that connect to other pieces and that'll be the one from fertilization. Sprouts growing directly from a big piece are clones.

Is it possible for the embyo from fertilization to die and still have a normal fruit? Thinking back at all those mangos with aborted seeds I guess it can happen.

Do mangos require fertilization to set fruit?

Fang
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Guanabanus on July 09, 2012, 11:17:43 PM
Thank you TropicDude, for the link to the research article from Brazil.

Yes, it is the "secondary, weaker plants", the identical-looking clones, that are the most desirable plants to use for rootstocks, so as to achieve uniformity of growth in groves, thus achieving uniformity of care / economy of scale.

Nurserymen do have to patiently wait a few more weeks for the seedlings to achieve sufficient size to be grafted.  And "stone grafting" is not usually a good option, due to inadequate seed reserves available to the clones.

Disentangling 40,000 seeds a year to look for cotyledons and different types of attachments is likely to require more labor expenditures than learning to recognize non-standard leaves.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Tropicdude on July 09, 2012, 11:33:49 PM
Thank you TropicDude, for the link to the research article from Brazil.

Yes, it is the "secondary, weaker plants", the identical-looking clones, that are the most desirable plants to use for rootstocks, so as to achieve uniformity of growth in groves, thus achieving uniformity of care / economy of scale.

Nurserymen do have to patiently wait a few more weeks for the seedlings to achieve sufficient size to be grafted.  And "stone grafting" is not usually a good option, due to inadequate seed reserves available to the clones.

Disentangling 40,000 seeds a year to look for cotyledons and different types of attachments is likely to require more labor expenditures than learning to recognize non-standard leaves.

I will use just any old seed for stone graft practice then.  makes sense that if your using the same type seed for rootstock you will eventually know what the leaves should look like, and it will be easy to ID the right sprout. the Manila seed I have that sprouted, came up with only one sprout, so not sure what the deal is here, maybe it wasn't a true Manila, or maybe there is still a chance the others will sprout still. 
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Tim on July 10, 2012, 12:25:10 PM
Sounds good to me  ;D
They look like clones to me.

Harry
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Jackfruitwhisperer69 on July 10, 2012, 02:31:14 PM
Shame on you guy's...Now, i'm in a knot :'( :blank: 

But, thanks for all them inputs...We will scythe threw this mystery ;)

Can't I plant all them shoot together? Then when the trees start to produce...the off-types will be removed.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fyliu on July 10, 2012, 03:46:25 PM
Would the leaves be visibly dissimilar between seedlings? If so that would be an easier way to tell.
Would it not be desirable to grow the strongest one and see if it's superior to the mother? What's there to lose? Just graft a scion from the mother plant onto a branch later and you'll have 2 varieties. Name the seedling after yourself.

I'm confused as to whether we're discussing a home growing or nursery growing. It seems to vary between posts. Anyway, if you're a nursery with lots of seeds, snip off the strongest one and the weakest 2 and 99% of the time you end up with a clone. If you're home growing, separate one seed and you'll get several plants. It's not as difficult as it sounds if you do it at the right time.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Pancrazio on July 10, 2012, 07:11:14 PM

Is it possible for the embyo from fertilization to die and still have a normal fruit? Thinking back at all those mangos with aborted seeds I guess it can happen.


Yes, it is. This is the reason why poly are preferred in the subtropic, because if the sexual embrio dies from cold, the others can replace it and so you can still get a normal sized fruit.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fyliu on July 10, 2012, 09:30:11 PM

Is it possible for the embyo from fertilization to die and still have a normal fruit? Thinking back at all those mangos with aborted seeds I guess it can happen.


Yes, it is. This is the reason why poly are preferred in the subtropic, because if the sexual embrio dies from cold, the others can replace it and so you can still get a normal sized fruit.
Would fertilization still have to occur to start the fruit set or is it like a banana where it can go either way?
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Pancrazio on July 11, 2012, 08:29:27 PM
I guess it is needed.
Think the other way round: if the poly embrios didn't need fertilization to start development, every single fruit on every polyembrionic mango would start to grow, wich simply isn't true. So i guess that poly embrios start to develop at some point after fertilization (not sure when).
But i must admit that i'm guessing here. Still i know as fact that poly have less chances of dropping for aborted seeds.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fyliu on July 12, 2012, 03:43:52 PM
Good to know that. I don't have a mango tree anymore but if I ever get started I'll make sure at least one is poly.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: phantomcrab on July 15, 2012, 07:47:47 AM
An interesting little fact about polyembryony:
It has been observed that some of the monoembryonic varieties may revert to polyembryony when grown under different sets of soil and climatic conditions.
Some of the Indian varieties which were mostly monoembryonic produced more than one seedling in the Philippines.  ???
From:
http://www.ikisan.com/Crop%20Specific/Eng/links/ap_mangoVarieties.shtml (http://www.ikisan.com/Crop%20Specific/Eng/links/ap_mangoVarieties.shtml)
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Pancrazio on July 16, 2012, 07:21:25 AM
This would also explain why, my brother coming back from japan this year, brought to me a mango wich was clearly a poly tipe (very long with the classical elephant tusk shape) wich had inside a single mono seed.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Tropicdude on July 20, 2012, 12:07:58 PM
Quote
the Manila seed I have that sprouted, came up with only one sprout, so not sure what the deal is here, maybe it wasn't a true Manila, or maybe there is still a chance the others will sprout still. 

UPDATE:

Almost a month after the original sprouting, the secondary sprout is coming up from this seed.

Any advice on how I can separate them without killing them both? or should I just cut the 1st one off? also when should I do this?
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: fyliu on July 20, 2012, 12:23:41 PM
Any advice on how I can separate them without killing them both? or should I just cut the 1st one off? also when should I do this?
Put it in a bucket of water and shake the whole thing loose. It reduces the chances of things breaking off. Then pot them up and allow root hairs to grow back.

I'm not sure if there's an optimum time to soak the seedling in water befrore shaking it.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Future on June 07, 2014, 09:51:33 PM
Hi Steven, i have one poly mango i grew from seed--just because it was the only way i could bring it in. It is a cultivar called Harumanis, from Malaysia, there widely considered the best tasting of mangos. As Zands pointed out, the poly seed will produce several sprouts, not all will be poly, some could be mono. Usually the most vigorous sprout is considered the clone. I planted the 2 most vigorous sprouts in one hole. This double tree has been growing great guns for about 9 years, but never flowered. Never, that is, until just now! Let's see if it finally fruits?

What became of this?
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: Future on June 07, 2014, 10:03:55 PM
Hi Steven, i have one poly mango i grew from seed--just because it was the only way i could bring it in. It is a cultivar called Harumanis, from Malaysia, there widely considered the best tasting of mangos. As Zands pointed out, the poly seed will produce several sprouts, not all will be poly, some could be mono. Usually the most vigorous sprout is considered the clone. I planted the 2 most vigorous sprouts in one hole. This double tree has been growing great guns for about 9 years, but never flowered. Never, that is, until just now! Let's see if it finally fruits?

What became of this?

Never mind.  http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=2433.msg34244;topicseen#msg34244 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=2433.msg34244;topicseen#msg34244)
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: gunnar429 on December 17, 2015, 10:15:11 AM
I have a poly mango seed that sprouted one strong shoot/plant and 2 scrawny shoots.  From what I read on this thread, the 2 smaller plants are most likely the clones.  What are your experiences?  The 2 smaller sprouts are at least half the size and vigor of the large sprout.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: bsbullie on December 17, 2015, 01:53:11 PM
I have a poly mango seed that sprouted one strong shoot/plant and 2 scrawny shoots.  From what I read on this thread, the 2 smaller plants are most likely the clones.  What are your experiences?  The 2 smaller sprouts are at least half the size and vigor of the large sprout.

Just throw it out and buy a grafted tree...  ;)  ;D 8) :P
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: gunnar429 on December 17, 2015, 03:33:46 PM
I have a poly mango seed that sprouted one strong shoot/plant and 2 scrawny shoots.  From what I read on this thread, the 2 smaller plants are most likely the clones.  What are your experiences?  The 2 smaller sprouts are at least half the size and vigor of the large sprout.

Just throw it out and buy a grafted tree...  ;)  ;D 8) :P

Oh, they have grafted mangoes here?   :-[ :P

I was debating whether or not to put a Bsbullie disclaimer on the end of my post--should've went with that idea.

Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: gunnar429 on December 17, 2015, 03:34:58 PM
I have a poly mango seed that sprouted one strong shoot/plant and 2 scrawny shoots.  From what I read on this thread, the 2 smaller plants are most likely the clones.  What are your experiences?  The 2 smaller sprouts are at least half the size and vigor of the large sprout.

Just throw it out and buy a grafted tree...  ;)  ;D 8) :P

Trust me, if this variety was available grafted, I would already have it planted out!

Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: bsbullie on December 17, 2015, 05:03:35 PM
I have a poly mango seed that sprouted one strong shoot/plant and 2 scrawny shoots.  From what I read on this thread, the 2 smaller plants are most likely the clones.  What are your experiences?  The 2 smaller sprouts are at least half the size and vigor of the large sprout.

Just throw it out and buy a grafted tree...  ;)  ;D 8) :P

Trust me, if this variety was available grafted, I would already have it planted out!

It will probably be available as a grafted tree before your tree fruits, assuming you get the right shoot.   ;D :P
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: sildanani on December 17, 2015, 06:21:48 PM
I haven't read every post on this thread, but is there anywhere I can find a list of polyembryonic mango varieties? I just planted a seed of an ataulfo mango. Very excited to see how it does.
Title: Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
Post by: gunnar429 on December 17, 2015, 08:16:33 PM
I have a poly mango seed that sprouted one strong shoot/plant and 2 scrawny shoots.  From what I read on this thread, the 2 smaller plants are most likely the clones.  What are your experiences?  The 2 smaller sprouts are at least half the size and vigor of the large sprout.

Just throw it out and buy a grafted tree...  ;)  ;D 8) :P

Trust me, if this variety was available grafted, I would already have it planted out!

It will probably be available as a grafted tree before your tree fruits, assuming you get the right shoot.   ;D :P

True, but then it will only be a 3g and i will still have to wait.  I am planting both so should be interesting---i like rolling the dice since I already have lots of grafted trees that I will rely on in time.