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Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: snowjunky on February 13, 2020, 04:15:17 AM

Title: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: snowjunky on February 13, 2020, 04:15:17 AM
My Redlands is very vigorous has huge leaves twice the size of all my California white sapote varieties.
Which makes me wonder if the tree is also much bigger than other varieties. 
If so then I have to reconsider it's location.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: Squam256 on February 13, 2020, 10:30:24 AM
Used to have Redland, Younghans and Suebelle, and Redland was definitely the most vigorous.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: bradflorida on April 26, 2021, 08:35:46 PM
Hi Squam

I noticed you said “used to”.  Did none of the white sapote varieties impress you?  Which was the best of the varieties that you have tasted?
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: JoeP450 on April 26, 2021, 10:47:04 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/Mvw6ZHC2/76-B03-E84-1-EF7-423-D-998-F-5-D740-F46-E84-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Mvw6ZHC2)

Interesting info, I just planted a Redlands and suebelle in the the same hole because I’m out of room in my yard. Will see how this goes, right now the suebelle is almost twice as big as Redlands but from the reports above it probably won’t be for much longer.

-joe
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: LycheeLust on April 26, 2021, 11:59:12 PM
I planted Redlands in a pot 2 months ago
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: CarolinaZone on April 27, 2021, 12:44:59 PM
I have a redlands that I got from Greenlife by Shamus O'leary in a pot along with a Vernon from Home Depot and a Younghans (it was labeled "young hands" purchased at Pokey's ), a subelle from Excalibur(plus two more from Excalibur USDA and SES???) and a seedling suppossedly from subelle that I purchased from Clausen. The all seem to be slow growers. The Vernon has tried to fruit.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: LycheeLust on April 27, 2021, 01:04:36 PM
Are you growing it in a greenhouse? You’re in North Carolina?
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: sc4001992 on April 27, 2021, 03:22:40 PM
I have Redlands and others grafted on the same tree. My multi-grafted white sapote tree has 28 varieties now thanks to all of the forum members here.

On my tree here's the varieties that seem to grow much faster/vigorous than the others:
1. Walton
2. Santa Cruz
3. Super Sweet
4. Bonita Springs
5. Redlands

So I agree that Redlands does grow more vigorously than some of the others. This graft is only 9 months old and doing good. It may be more vigorous than the first 4 on this list but the graft is not old enough to compare it yet. But it does seem to grow faster than others grafted at the same time.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: Johnny Redland on April 27, 2021, 04:05:11 PM
Redland has been moderate for me. The real all star for growth is Rainbow.  I don't know how people could legitimately keep that tree under 20ft
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: CarolinaZone on April 27, 2021, 05:23:45 PM
Are you growing it in a greenhouse? You’re in North Carolina?
Unheated greenhouse. I have kept them watered but not heavily because I was scared of fungus. I fertilized twice last year with some citrus fertilizer i got from Pokey's.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: CarolinaZone on April 27, 2021, 05:27:19 PM
I have Redlands and others grafted on the same tree. My multi-grafted white sapote tree has 28 varieties now thanks to all of the forum members here.

On my tree here's the varieties that seem to grow much faster/vigorous than the others:
1. Walton
2. Santa Cruz
3. Super Sweet
4. Bonita Springs
5. Redlands

So I agree the Redlands does grow more vigorous than some of the others. This graft is only 9 months old and doing good. It may be more vigorous than the first 4 on this list but the graft is not old enough to compare it yet. But it does seem to grow faster than others grafted at the same time.
I was wondering if your "Super sweet" is actually a Younghan's?
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: LycheeLust on April 27, 2021, 05:28:29 PM
I have Redlands and others grafted on the same tree. My multi-grafted white sapote tree has 28 varieties now thanks to all of the forum members here.

On my tree here's the varieties that seem to grow much faster/vigorous than the others:
1. Walton
2. Santa Cruz
3. Super Sweet
4. Bonita Springs
5. Redlands

So I agree the Redlands does grow more vigorous than some of the others. This graft is only 9 months old and doing good. It may be more vigorous than the first 4 on this list but the graft is not old enough to compare it yet. But it does seem to grow faster than others grafted at the same time.

Do you have a favorite variety yet?
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: achetadomestica on April 27, 2021, 08:57:32 PM
I have Redlands and others grafted on the same tree. My multi-grafted white sapote tree has 28 varieties now thanks to all of the forum members here.

On my tree here's the varieties that seem to grow much faster/vigorous than the others:
1. Walton
2. Santa Cruz
3. Super Sweet
4. Bonita Springs
5. Redlands

So I agree the Redlands does grow more vigorous than some of the others. This graft is only 9 months old and doing good. It may be more vigorous than the first 4 on this list but the graft is not old enough to compare it yet. But it does seem to grow faster than others grafted at the same time.
I was wondering if your "Super sweet" is actually a Younghan's?

I was told the Super Sweet is the same as Bonita Springs. I have a Super Sweet and
I recently got a Youghan's gold last year and they seem very different. The youghans is more vigorous
for me and much darker green leaves.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: sc4001992 on April 27, 2021, 11:44:46 PM
"I was wondering if your "Super sweet" is actually a Younghan's? "

No its not a Younghan's, it's a Supersweet that I purchased scions from Mike (above). But as some people say, the Supersweet and Bonita Springs do grow similar (vigorous) and the leaves/branches look almost identical. When I get fruits on these branches I should be able to compare the fruits taste to determine if its the same variety. I purchased my Bonita Springs from Oldsurfer who has a large tree.

I also have grafted Youghan's Gold (from Mike) and for me here in CA, it grows slow, skinny branches but I did get small fruits on it. The branches were still too small to get the fruits growing to full size.

I do not have a favorite yet since I have not had full size fruits on any of my grafted varieties. Right now I have fruits on Nettie and Cuccio (both from Jonah). The only white sapote fruit that I tasted fresh from the tree is the McDill (very good flavor) and the yellow (wooly leaf) sapote (also taste good). I only started growing my white sapote because the McDill tastes so good about 5 yrs ago. All my trees in ground are from the seeds of these two fruits I ate. Both the McDill and Wooly leaf sapote were  correct varieties, it was at the Fullerton Arboretum and they have signs posted on each tree.

Around here in SoCal I hear from JF and others that the following are very good tasting varieties:
- Fairhaven (seedling of Suebelle, brix =30)
- Malibu
- Sunset
- Santa Cruz
- C. Tetrameria #6 & #7
-Robert's Rainbow
I have all of these grafted but no fruits yet.



Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: Jack, Nipomo on April 28, 2021, 09:15:49 AM
2 Malibu out there, # 1 and #3
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: WaterFowler on April 28, 2021, 11:02:03 AM
Redland has been moderate for me. The real all star for growth is Rainbow.  I don't know how people could legitimately keep that tree under 20ft

You probably bought the "Rainbow" local being in Florida but out of curiosity where did you buy it? I prefer it being vigorous as I'm planting it on a ranch so space isn't an issue, I've read that rainbow tastes very good too. I've looked around and haven't seen it for sale on the internet. I can buy Vernon and Suebelle at my local Home Depot for cheap.

I have a Vernon that's doing ok. It's 4 years old and about 7 feet tall. It produced a few fruits last year but this years crop looks heavier if I let them all hold. My Suebelle has been has been a disappointment. I had it out in more sun but it just couldn't take our brutal summers so I moved it into a heavily shaded area but it's not thriving there either. Our alkaline soil probably doesn't help much either. So I'm looking for other varieties to experiment with.

They say white sapote grows just like citrus but citrus does fantastic out here even with our heat and soil(minus satsuma mandarin). I've seen big trees out in Phoenix so I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong out here.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: sc4001992 on April 28, 2021, 01:57:31 PM
Yes, I got my scions from Jack, both Malibu #1 & #3 are growing well. Thank you.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: Johnny Redland on April 28, 2021, 01:58:06 PM
Redland has been moderate for me. The real all star for growth is Rainbow.  I don't know how people could legitimately keep that tree under 20ft

You probably bought the "Rainbow" local being in Florida but out of curiosity where did you buy it? I prefer it being vigorous as I'm planting it on a ranch so space isn't an issue, I've read that rainbow tastes very good too. I've looked around and haven't seen it for sale on the internet. I can buy Vernon and Suebelle at my local Home Depot for cheap.



I solicited scions from California and grafted it onto a seedling tree. I grafted it last june and I've already had to cut it back twice. Imagine that!
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: Matti.Laith on January 31, 2023, 11:42:06 AM
What tree is your rootstock for this marvel?

I have Redlands and others grafted on the same tree. My multi-grafted white sapote tree has 28 varieties now thanks to all of the forum members here.

On my tree here's the varieties that seem to grow much faster/vigorous than the others:
1. Walton
2. Santa Cruz
3. Super Sweet
4. Bonita Springs
5. Redlands

So I agree that Redlands does grow more vigorously than some of the others. This graft is only 9 months old and doing good. It may be more vigorous than the first 4 on this list but the graft is not old enough to compare it yet. But it does seem to grow faster than others grafted at the same time.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: sc4001992 on January 31, 2023, 01:06:08 PM
Matti, I mentioned it above but maybe it wasn't clear. I ate both the McDill and yellow sapote fruits from the Fullerton Arboretum for the first time. Then I needed to get some more fruits so I could grow the seedlings. I planted about 3 seeds from each fruits of McDill and yellow sapote (had no name on the label) and after 5 yrs the trees were large enough to graft onto the 34 varities of white sapote on the largest seedling tree. I eventually had to remove the big seedling tree and it died when I transpanted it so now I'm down to 25 varieties on my two smaller seedling trees.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: sc4001992 on January 31, 2023, 01:27:14 PM
Update, now that is has been a few years since this post was active, I can give you some updates on my white sapote fruits.

I have now tasted the following fruits:
1. McDill
2. Yellow Sapote (from Arboretum)
3. Younghan's Gold
4. Super sweet
5. Cuccio
6. Suebelle
7. Vernon

My favorite so far on this list is from best to worst.
1. Younghan's Gold
2.  McDill
3. Cuccio
4. Vernon
5. Super Sweet

I have the following flowers/fruits on my grafts this year, so I hope to add to the list of fruits I tasted this year.
1. Clytia (from Jack)
2. Younghan's Gold
3. Super Sweet
4. Vernon
5. Butterscotch (AJ)
6. Bonita Springs
7. Vernon
8. Nettie
9. Mary Lane (ML)
10. Yellow Sapote seedling (Arboretum)

Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: SaltwaterTx on January 31, 2023, 01:37:21 PM
Has anyone tasted Campbells from Lara? Curious to where it falls on heirarchy
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: Matti.Laith on February 23, 2023, 11:39:57 AM
Matti, I mentioned it above but maybe it wasn't clear. I ate both the McDill and yellow sapote fruits from the Fullerton Arboretum for the first time. Then I needed to get some more fruits so I could grow the seedlings. I planted about 3 seeds from each fruits of McDill and yellow sapote (had no name on the label) and after 5 yrs the trees were large enough to graft onto the 34 varities of white sapote on the largest seedling tree. I eventually had to remove the big seedling tree and it died when I transpanted it so now I'm down to 25 varieties on my two smaller seedling trees.

That's an amazing accomplishment. I can't imagine trying to keep that many varieties properly pruned on one tree.
Have you ever attempted a white sapote espalier? I'd imagine managing so many varieties would be simpler on one but then again I'm not sure how well a White Sapote would fruit on an espalier.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: Matti.Laith on February 23, 2023, 11:41:47 AM
Has anyone tasted Campbells from Lara? Curious to where it falls on heirarchy


I just got myself one a few weeks ago but I'm in the same boat. There really isn't any information on it yet other than the video Lara farms posted.
Maybe we'll need to be the first to review it in the next couple of years  :(
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: Jack, Nipomo on February 24, 2023, 02:10:21 PM
Yellow Sapote (Casimiroa tetrameria) is thought to be part of the genetics of Suebelle (fuzzy underside of leaves) and Suebell is as a result smaller than the typical White Sapote (Casimiroa edulis).  My Pike is a giant and I can't reach around the trunk with both arms.  Unbelieveable amount of fruit is produced.  The Yellow sapote on their own roots are sized much smaller.  These trees are well over 20 years of age.  Interestingly, grafting a white sapote (like my giant Pike) on a yellow sapote rootstock causes extreme dwarfing and a tree about six ft tall, producing normal sized fruit.  No delayed incompatibility so far in over 20 years.  I have 4 dwarfed white sapotes on yellow rootstock, some 4 ft tall, some 7ft tall after more than 20 years. .  A much younger person needs to experiment with a varied interstock of yellow sapote on white sapote to regulate ultimate size of the tree.  As an aside, a friend dried some white sapote fruit (sliced) and it was exellent, described as the flavor of "gummy worms". 
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: nattyfroootz on February 24, 2023, 02:14:00 PM
Great advice Jack! Makes me happy I have a couple of Casimiroa tetrameria that are just starting to flower.  I'll definitely try some interstem grafting. I have around a hundred C. edulis seedlings that are gonna be sized up for grafting here soon and will give it a good go as I have lots of Tetrameria wood to use.

Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: snowjunky on February 24, 2023, 05:59:49 PM
Yellow Sapote (Casimiroa tetrameria) is thought to be part of the genetics of Suebelle (fuzzy underside of leaves) and Suebell is as a result smaller than the typical White Sapote (Casimiroa edulis).  My Pike is a giant and I can't reach around the trunk with both arms.  Unbelieveable amount of fruit is produced.  The Yellow sapote on their own roots are sized much smaller.  These trees are well over 20 years of age.  Interestingly, grafting a white sapote (like my giant Pike) on a yellow sapote rootstock causes extreme dwarfing and a tree about six ft tall, producing normal sized fruit.  No delayed incompatibility so far in over 20 years.  I have 4 dwarfed white sapotes on yellow rootstock, some 4 ft tall, some 7ft tall after more than 20 years. .  A much younger person needs to experiment with a varied interstock of yellow sapote on white sapote to regulate ultimate size of the tree.  As an aside, a friend dried some white sapote fruit (sliced) and it was exellent, described as the flavor of "gummy worms".

Jack, that's just too much useful info in one post.  This is the first time I hear about dwarfing white sapotes. 
What a great way to grow white sapote on yellow sapote rootstock to dwarf it.  Less space, less trimming, less climbing, less mess and flies from falling fruit.
I cut down two of my four WS trees because they just grow too fast and get too huge.  Especially the Redlands.  Malibu#3 is also super vigorous.
Suebelle dies easier than other WS in Phoenix, so maybe yellow sapote rootstock would be difficult to use in the desert.
I top worked my Vernon to Malibu#3 and Walton because Vernon has bitter skin and a weird flavor here.  Malibu#3 and Walton taste better.
My kids love gummy anything.  I will try to dehydrate some WS this year!  Too many WS to eat anyway.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: sc4001992 on February 24, 2023, 07:35:31 PM
Yup, good info from Jack. I have grown a few seedling yellow sapote from the fruits I ate 5-7 yrs ago and that seedling tree is still nice and small (less than 8 ft tall, trunk diameter 2-3"). I grafted many other white sapotes on this tree and it does keep them smaller and still get the normal size fruits.

I also grew the seeds from the white sapote, a McDill fruit and planted those at the same time, that tree grew over 20ft, and I had to trim it back every year to keep it about 15 ft, the trunk diameter of that tree was 12". When I dug up that tree to move it, it weighed over 300 lbs.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: snowjunky on February 24, 2023, 10:50:54 PM
Yup, good info from Jack. I have grown a few seedling yellow sapote from the fruits I ate 5-7 yrs ago and that seedling tree is still nice and small (less than 8 ft tall, trunk diameter 2-3"). I grafted many other white sapotes on this tree and it does keep them smaller and still get the normal size fruits.

I also grew the seeds from the white sapote, McDill fruits and planted those at the same time, that tree grew over 20ft and I had to trim it back every year to keep it about 15 ft, the trunk diameter of that tree was 12". When I dug up that tree to move it, it weighed over 300 lbs.

 :o You dug up a 300lb tree to move it!?!  I'd be scared shitless by that amount of work.  Did it survive?
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: sc4001992 on February 24, 2023, 11:18:51 PM
It was not fun, I only had the weekend to do the move so I rented one of those demolition jack hammer (35 lbs) to do the digging around the tree (6-8ft diameter hole). I figured I might as well try to transplant it to save the tree..


Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: sc4001992 on February 24, 2023, 11:21:41 PM
This was my McDill seedling tree, after 3 months in the new location, it didn't make. Lost a lot of varieties on the tree and I did not have other trees that I could re-graft all my 34 varieties from this tree.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: snowjunky on February 24, 2023, 11:29:48 PM
Sucks. That's not the happy ending we want to hear :'(
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: sc4001992 on February 24, 2023, 11:35:14 PM
It still good, I have my other two smaller seedling trees (one is white sapote, other is yellow sapote) and have 28 varieties on them. Just got the Selck that I'm grafting this weekend.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: snowjunky on February 24, 2023, 11:46:35 PM
Redland has been moderate for me. The real all star for growth is Rainbow.  I don't know how people could legitimately keep that tree under 20ft

My Rainbow is actually less vigorous than my other WS trees.  It could be due to rootstock difference.  I got the tree from Bush2Beach.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: WO_STG on August 09, 2023, 11:33:05 AM
Update, now that is has been a few years since this post was active, I can give you some updates on my white sapote fruits.

I have now tasted the following fruits:
1. McDill
2. Yellow Sapote (from Arboretum)
3. Younghan's Gold
4. Super sweet
5. Cuccio
6. Suebelle
7. Vernon

My favorite so far on this list is from best to worst.
1. Younghan's Gold
2.  McDill
3. Cuccio
4. Vernon
5. Super Sweet

I have the following flowers/fruits on my grafts this year, so I hope to add to the list of fruits I tasted this year.
1. Clytia (from Jack)
2. Younghan's Gold
3. Super Sweet
4. Vernon
5. Butterscotch (AJ)
6. Bonita Springs
7. Vernon
8. Nettie
9. Mary Lane (ML)
10. Yellow Sapote seedling (Arboretum)

That's incredible, thank you for sharing. I look forward to your findings from this year's fruit. Do you happen to have any pictures of your 28-graft tree?

I noticed Vernon shows up twice in the fruiting grafts list. Was this a duplicate entry or are you experimenting between two different grafts?
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: sc4001992 on August 09, 2023, 12:08:53 PM
WO_STG, yes, I show the two Vernon since there are multiple sources on my trees. I always try to get at least 2 sources for every new variety I graft on my trees so until I taste the fruits to see if they are the same, I keep the two sources. Some people have told me their Vernon have large fruits and tastes very good, so I got scion wood from multiple people and grafted them. I know that Robert said his Vernon is very good tasting and another lady has a very old Vernon and she said it is the best tasting white sapote she has eaten so I have both grafted.

But I did not end up with any Vernon fruit on my grafts this year, the small fruits all fell off, probably need another year to hold fruit. Same with the Mary Lane.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: snowjunky on September 24, 2023, 03:57:35 AM
My white sapotes are just growing too big and messy for the space I have. 
I'm going to try to use Suebelle as a rootstock or maybe as an interstock to decrease tree size. 
White Sapote on Casimiroa tetrameria as rootstock is probably too dwarf / low vigor to survive Phoenix AZ according to Jack's info.
Suebelle is a naturally small tree with lower vigor and less cold hardy. It might be part Casimiroa tetrameria. 
That's why Suebelle is harder to grow in Phoenix than a Vernon, Rainbow, Walton or Malibu #3.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: snowjunky on September 25, 2023, 06:17:22 PM
My Rainbow and Malibu#3 had no fruits this year since my Walton died from broken irrigation and I top worked the Vernon to Walton.
This confirms that Rainbow and Malibu #3 are likely pollen sterile and that Walton and/or Vernon are pollenators.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: sc4001992 on September 25, 2023, 07:48:00 PM
Steve, good to know about Rainbow and Malibu #3. I'm glad I have those other varieties all grafted on the same tree (Walton, Vernon, Supersweet, Bonita Springs, Younghan's Gold, Cuccio, etc). I better move the smaller grafted Malibu #1 plant and graft a cutting to my multi-grafted tree.
Title: Re: Redlands White Sapote trees possibly grow bigger than other white sapotes?
Post by: snowjunky on September 26, 2023, 06:13:12 PM
Lol Kaz, you got more varieties on one tree than I have fruits.  I'm reluctant to graft more than two varieties on one tree.