Author Topic: Atemoya Disaster! (Read 13001 times)

sunworshiper · « **on:** June 25, 2012, 07:00:10 PM »

Today's severe weather took its toll. My poor atemoya tree was snapped off about 10 inches above the ground=( Here it was last week:

And here it is all broken off=(

Here is a close up of the break

Luckily, the break is about 8 inches above the graft, so hopefully after its severe and unintended pugging, it will send out some new shoots.

So questions:

Would you have pruned the "before" tree? It seemed to me that it was taking on a pretty good shape with well placed branches. But it was not strong enough to hold itself up and I had it tied to a bamboo pole. Strong winds unfortunately broke the ties.

How do you encourage a new tree to grow a strong enough trunk that it doesn't need a support pole? Or do newly grafted trees tend to need them for a while? When I bought this tree it was only pencil thickness. The trunk is now about 3/4 inch in diameter. So increasing, but not fast enough to support its own weight. I'm interested to know if it would have been better to not have allowed this tree to get so tall before its trunk thickened up. Opinions?

I now have an "opportunity" to try a new shaping strategy, so advice is welcome...

Thanks for looking,

Angela

Mike T · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:03:39 PM »

Sounds like it is time for pruning and staking.I just saw on the news that there is inclement weather in your neck of the woods.I would chop the snapped tree off clean and seal the wound.

FlyingFoxFruits · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:04:50 PM »

I'd have a fork shape, tied down low to ground laterally.

now your tree will be more resistant to wind for sure! what doesn't kill it below the graft; only makes it stronger.

it will be fine, but you may not have fruit for a while.

HMHausman · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:13:51 PM »

So sorry to see the damage. I feel your pain. I agree with the advice given above. Having to have patience for growth a fruiting is necessary....but it really is no fun.

Harry

GwenninPR · « **Reply #4 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:20:39 PM »

Man that sucks. Sorry that happened, but luckily it snapped above the graft.

samuelforest · « **Reply #5 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:22:31 PM »

You look happy it broken on the picture LOL. Sorry for that, I hope it comes back again in the near future.

CoPlantNut · « **Reply #6 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:44:37 PM »

Losing most of a tree that way is always painful... Living in a very windy climate, I've found the best way to make wind-resistant trees is to tip-prune most or all new growth to form a compact, stout and bushy plant. Even so, creating nice thick stems that withstand the wind, the leaves can still all be stripped off by wind; you really can't make a plant completely wind-proof. Re-growing leaves takes a lot less time than regrowing 90% of the tree though...

Kevin

sunworshiper · « **Reply #7 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:52:25 PM »

Thanks for the sympathy! I have yet to have an opportunity to taste an atemoya, from my tree or any other. So this setback is especially frustrating. Oh, and btw, that's my hubby in the pic not me.

I have made a clean cut & now have a very short (and inherently wind resistant) tree with no branches or leaves.

ASaffron, can you post a picture of the fork shaped support? I'm not sure I get what it would look like? Is it like triangulating tie downs?

How long do people find that young trees need staking? The goal of course being a tree that can support itself...

Kevin, do you stake your young trees? Or do you find that by diligently tip pruning that they don't need staking?

CoPlantNut · « **Reply #8 on:** June 25, 2012, 07:56:44 PM »

I only stake newly planted trees that aren't sturdy enough on their own, for at most one year. If they continue to need a stake after that, they get pugged until they don't need a stake. Exceptions are made for trees that bend due to a heavy snow load, but you shouldn't have that problem.

Kevin

Jsvand5 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 25, 2012, 08:50:19 PM »

Quote from: CoPlantNut on June 25, 2012, 07:56:44 PM

I only stake newly planted trees that aren't sturdy enough on their own, for at most one year. If they continue to need a stake after that, they get pugged until they don't need a stake. Exceptions are made for trees that bend due to a heavy snow load, but you shouldn't have that problem.

Kevin

That is kind of my thinking as well. I usually remove the stakes as soon as I buy a tree. If the tree doesn't hold itself up at that point I prune it back to a level where it will.

puglvr1 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 25, 2012, 09:14:11 PM »

I'm SO sorry about your tree Sun!! The wind has been pretty bad over here too...but I think you guys might have a little worse than I do. Good luck and I hope it comes back stronger than ever.

Unfortunately, we're in for several more days of this...TS Debby is NOT in a hurry to leave!!

bradflorida · « **Reply #11 on:** June 25, 2012, 09:59:48 PM »

Sorry to hear about the destroyed tree. I have 20 trees in containers alongside my house and they are falling down sometimes and some of them look like the rootball is loosening inside the pot from the constant torquing of the trunks back and forth. It made me think that once I plant these trees in te ground it might make sense to have an anchor system set up for each tree on case of high winds in the future. You know the type with a 2 sections of cut hose and rope and 3 anchors set up in a tripod fashion.

Brad

bsbullie · « **Reply #12 on:** June 26, 2012, 07:54:53 AM »

I have stated this before but will reiterate. Using the "anchor" system for a young tree like, like Brad described, is an invitation for breakage (see seadation's coconut cream). While no staking will be safe from strong winds, as most likely what happened with Angela's atemoya, a young tree is much better off protected the way she had it staked (see her first picture). When using the anchor system like Brad described, that becomes the weak point of the tree. It should definitely hold the tree secure at that point but that point becomes the weal spot. As the rest of the tree at and above that point will flex/sway/blow in the wind, it will allow for the secured point of the tree to be the breaking point. A support tied directly to the trunk and as high up as possible will give the best support under NORMAL weather conditions. I hope my ramble is understandable...if not, let me know and I will try to explain.

sunworshiper · « **Reply #13 on:** June 26, 2012, 09:30:34 AM »

Thanks for all the great information on how people stake trees. I have have had bad luck with tying a tree in one spot, as bsbullie explained, it can cause the tree to snap at the tie point (happened on a hong kong orchid for me).

With this tree, the fault is with the material used for the ties. I use raffia because it will break rather than girdle a tree so I don't have to worry about tying a tree tightly and then not loosening it soon enough. However, I think I need to switch to that stretchy plastic as the tie material. The raffia weakens when it is wet and although this particular tree was tied in at least 10 places, all broke. The plastic would not have this problem. This tree was small enough that the stake was not in danger of pulling over (and didn't - it was still standing after the tree broke). However, on more top heavy trees, I will stake them like this, then add 3 tie down lines to secure the stake. Here's an example:

This peach tree nearly got knocked over by high winds last year (its first year in ground). This staking system stabilized it, and this year it was productive and is strong enough not to need a stake.

I have heard with atemoyas that they grow vigorously when very young, then do not grow much again. Is this true? Just curious as I think about how I will shape new growth...

Mike T · « **Reply #14 on:** June 26, 2012, 09:45:34 AM »

Velcro tree ties are pretty good and don't cut but have give.Multiple velcro strips an be applied rapidly.Stakes that can flex a bit are preferable in storm areas.What to do depends on anticipated wind speed.Poorly formed and prepared trees can be wiped out by 60mph winds.Well prepared trees such as those espaliered,trellissed and very short pruned can survive winds approaching 200mph.I saved a durian tree in 100mph winds by roping it to a fence in several places and pruning it.The trees that I have lost have been those that flexed too far and snapped at the base such as a 30ft durian.

behlgarden · « **Reply #15 on:** June 26, 2012, 11:44:41 AM »

You need those thick stakes that landscapers use for trees, two to hold it precise and tied at two points, 1/3rd and 2/3rd. if winds knock out the canopy, you would still have some lower branches with foilage. So sorry to see the damage. These trees bend quite well before snapping.

ofdsurfer · « **Reply #16 on:** June 26, 2012, 08:55:25 PM »

I lost a branch with a few fruit that where a few weeks away from maturing on it in this storm. The strange thing is a sugar apple next to the atemoya has a much heavier fruit load and has taken the wind without breaking thus far.

bradflorida · « **Reply #17 on:** June 26, 2012, 09:36:37 PM »

Good ideas with Velcro tree ties and tying at a couple levels. I think it's worth having this stuff prepared ahead of time for storms like we are having now in south florida. I wasn't too pleased to see how much the trunks of my container trees have been flexing and loosening in the pots

Brad

bsbullie · « **Reply #18 on:** June 26, 2012, 10:58:53 PM »

Quote from: bradflorida on June 26, 2012, 09:36:37 PM

Good ideas with Velcro tree ties and tying at a couple levels. I think it's worth having this stuff prepared ahead of time for storms like we are having now in south florida. I wasn't too pleased to see how much the trunks of my container trees have been flexing and loosening in the pots

Brad

What type of soil mix are you using ?

gnappi · « **Reply #19 on:** June 27, 2012, 07:10:29 AM »

Quote from: sunworshiper on June 25, 2012, 07:00:10 PM

Today's severe weather took its toll. My poor atemoya tree was snapped off about 10 inches above the ground=( Here it was last week:
Would you have pruned the "before" tree? It seemed to me that it was taking on a pretty good shape with well placed branches. But it was not strong enough to hold itself up and I had it tied to a bamboo pole. Strong winds unfortunately broke the ties.

Angela

Hi Angela. My Geffner is really tall and spindly, so I kept a vertical garden support stick tied to the trunk, and have three stakes in the ground that it's also tied to, as I had the same worries about it breaking. I also have a sugar apple which has a support stick tied to the trunk also. Both will have their supports until the trunk size matches their spreading canopies.

Sorry to see your tree break. It looked really nice, hopefully it will rebound.

bradflorida · « **Reply #20 on:** June 27, 2012, 08:18:38 AM »

The trees that have wiggled the most were recently potted up and I added miracle gro citrus/cactus soil.

Brad

sunworshiper · « **Reply #21 on:** June 27, 2012, 09:59:28 AM »

Velcro ties are a great idea - especially for quick fixes during storms - it can be so hard to tie knots in wind and rain. Thanks for a great suggestion Mike. I agree that a semi-flexible support is useful. What do you use? I use bamboo poles, which are nice because the do flex a bit in the wind. The only thing about the bamboo poles is they need replaced pretty often since the in ground part tends to rot away. Sorry to hear that you have had a 30' tree snap! Did it resprout?

ofdsurfer - interesting comparison of sugar apple to atemoya. I wonder if they are typically more prone to breakage. Sorry to hear you lost your nearly ripe fruit!

bsbullie - thanks for the description of how you have your Geffner tied. I wonder if this variety is always spindly when young? It sounds like your tree is similar to how mine was. Your tie system sounds like a good one. How long do you expect it will take the trunks to thicken up enough not to need the support? Last year the trunk of mine didn't thicken much at all, but this year it had been starting to thicken nicely.

Container trees are a whole other beast. Glad to hear that so far yours are ok Brad. I have a rubber tree that I keep in a container, because I don't want it to go wild in ground. I have formed it into a "circus tree" with a double helix trunk shape. Since I'm shaping it, it has a solid wooden cage around it. I have the wooden cage secured to the ground using tie downs attached to wooden stakes driven into the ground. So far seems to be working. But that would be a lot of work to stake down 20 potted trees that way!

Guanabanus · « **Reply #22 on:** June 27, 2012, 10:39:41 PM »

Yes, I would have pruned your "before" tree: cut off all but the bottom two or three of the top cluster of branches, and shortened the good bottom lateral branches by about a foot. Just before a forecasted storm, one can also run one's thumb and curled index finger down a branch to break off most of the larger leaves.

Staking with both a central stake and three anchors and six ropes also works. Yes, where the top anchor ropes wrap the trunk is definitely the new weak spot, but 5 feet above ground is a whole lot better than one foot only. Staking with one heavy steel pipe is something I have saved several trees with, using heavy rope through a piece of old stiff hose at the plant's trunk.

Using less Nitrogen and more Potassium and soluble Silicate, would also improve hardiness. If you don't already have a lot of Calcium in your soil, add that too.

Mike T · « **Reply #23 on:** June 28, 2012, 02:21:06 AM »

The soft velcro ties work well in storms and have lots of give.I buy the coils and chop to the length I need.They are easily removable and re-usable

sunworshiper · « **Reply #24 on:** June 28, 2012, 09:35:09 AM »

Nice pic Mike! That looks great.

Guanabanus, thanks for the specific pruning advice. Downselecting among that top cluster of branches was planned, but I hadn't yet decided which were the best candidates for scaffold branches. So absolutely agree on that. Regarding shortening the bottom lateral branches, can you discuss a bit further? Would you do that as a standard pruning activity, or as a severe storm preparation? I am interested in knowing at what length you would recommend tipping a new lateral branch to encourage a good mature tree shape? I was happy with the height of this tree (about 6') and was intending to not allow its main trunk to extend up any further (modified central leader pattern). Assuming that the topmost lateral branches would eventually extend the tree's height another 2 feet, that seemed about right, since I want the mature tree to have its fruit within arms reach without a ladder. I would love advice on how long to let new laterals grow.

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Author Topic: Atemoya Disaster! (Read 13001 times)