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Messages - Ilya11

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1
Disclaimer is right, it is wrong.
Triploids never give haploid plants ; theoretically  their gametes  are only  haploid, diploid and triploid.
I believe you were misunderstanding. Triploid pollen can induce the formation of haploid embryo from the female fruit parent; the single chromosome set would always come from the female parent in such a case.

It is not triploid gamete that is giving haploid mother alike plants, it can be easily replaced by irradiated diploid pollen.

2
So a quick summary, here is what I gathered from the information
(disclaimer: this could be completely wrong)

When Oroblanco pollinates a normal diploid, you get a haploid (at least the vast majority of the time)
When a normal diploid pollinates Oroblanco, you probably get diploid and triploid
Disclaimer is right, it is wrong.
Triploids never give haploid plants ; theoretically  their gametes  are only  haploid, diploid and triploid.
Pollination of Oroblanco with diploid clementine pollen is giving only diploid plants due to unfavorable completion of diploid gametes   with haploid ones.
(Citrus Genetics, Breeding and Biotechnology,edited by Iqrar Ahmad Khan, p.205)

3
Citrus General Discussion / Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« on: August 12, 2017, 05:35:04 PM »
C.medica that you mentioned has nothing to do with papedas either in morphology or in the sequence of expressed cDNA tags that were determined for them.
Why  are you creating your own mythical universe? It looks  like a AI bot activity.

4
Citrus General Discussion / Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« on: August 12, 2017, 08:21:52 AM »
Again, completely wrong and misleading statement.
Clementine, mandarin, pummelo, sweet-orange and sour-orange genomes  were extensively  sequenced, there is no room for the slightest traces of papeda ancestry.

5
Citrus General Discussion / Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« on: August 11, 2017, 04:30:04 AM »
I still think micrantha is just a form of hystrix but didn't know it is a progenitor of modern limes. I also expected maxima to feature more prominently and medica to feature less.
I like the way you think, but I don't think that's true here. I seem to remember reading that kaffir lime was a hybrid of some other type of papeda (I can't remember what it is right now) from which it derived its cold-hardiness. (It was some weird one, not as cold-hardy as Ichang papeda, but maybe I'm not remembering any of this right)
I think kaffir limes are descended from a different papeda ancestor than common limes. Isn't kaffir lime about as cold-hardy as the more cold-hardy oranges? While common limes are the most sensitive out of all the different citrus groups to cold, slightly more sensitive than common lemons.

Edit: I think it may have been C. latipes, also known as Khasi papeda.

But yes, it's well known that limes are descended from C. micrantha. Another little uncommon fact, C. micrantha is incredibly high in furanocoumarin levels, over four times higher than bergamot! Probably not a good idea to put the essential oil on your skin.

So lemon's primary ancestor is citron, for lime it is C. micrantha, and for kaffir lime it is Khasi papeda (assuming I'm remembering right)

I do suspect citron, C, micrantha, khasi papeda (and Ichang papeda too) are closer related to each other than they are to C. reticula or C. maxima, but that's just judging by morphological appearances.
This text is full of factual errors and Turing criteria is not met. :o

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: August 06, 2017, 06:12:32 PM »
All three embryonal layers in higher plants are pluripotent. They are able to generate callus and it  is giving  both stems and roots. In this case, roots are not necessary belong to original L3.
Moreover, while L1 is quite stable, L2 and L3 are constantly invading each other.  This explains uneven margin in decorative albino chimeras (L1=green, L2=albino, L3=green)
https://uwaterloo.ca/biology/sites/ca.biology/files/uploads/files/Lecture%207%20for%20students.pdf.

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: August 06, 2017, 06:51:01 AM »
It is important to note that we do not have the original Citsuma , but  only grafted plants.
The rooted stem cuttings could produce roots either directly from cambium cells (L3) or from callus  that potentially could involve cells from any layer.

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: August 05, 2017, 05:01:09 AM »
To test this hypothesis, one could root Prague, and make a root cutting to root. The plant should be all L3 and thus should be poncirus.
As i wrote above, in most of the cases in root cuttings L1 will be replaced by L3 cells that are very invasive, but it could be  also be formed by the cells from the former L2 that are present in the roots.
L2 : Seeds are from F2. As Prague seems to carry few seeds, it would lead to S2 = satsuma. Seedlings should be pure sastuma.
Also L2 + L3 gives leaf form, so if both L2 and L3 where poncirus, i guess leaves would be trifoliate.
Sylvain demonstrated that fruits and seedlings are pure satsuma
Leaves are formed by all three layers, with L1 forming a leaf margin, this explains the fact that Prague have a very particular foliage.

9
I don't know, I wonder if the Chinese Orange could be partly descended from C. indica, which can still be found growing in the wild in Northeastern India. I'm also thinking that Meyer lemon has a lot less C. maxima in its ancestry (if any) than Orange.

I'd be really interested in citrus hybrids that didn't have any mandarin in their ancestry, since virtually all citrus hybrids are descended from mandarin.
Both statements have no experimental justification and are misleading.

10
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrumelo 5*
« on: July 21, 2017, 09:57:14 AM »
If citrus seeds can be legally imported to US, I can send 5* to you in the autumn.

11
I tasted many times Sweetie (Oroblanco produced in Israel).
 It is sweet but totally blunt in taste, nothing to do with flavor of Duncan.

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: July 17, 2017, 01:25:30 PM »
Original L1 will be lost in root cuttings, in most cases it will be replaced by cells from L3, but it could also come from former L2, so MMP at least theoretically is possible. Since Prague is occasionally giving pure poncirus shoots, it is not entirely stabilized periclinal chimera, probably L2 does contain some proportion of poncirus cells.

13
My point was than despite quite moderate temperatures during growing season here at latitude 4851' pomelos and their hybrids are able to ripen and accumulate enough sugar.
My average yearly minimum is -8.9C and soil could be frozen for up to two weeks without snow and with  strong winds. Every 5 years we have winters with one - two nights of -12.5C and every 30 years there is an extreme cold of -18C. It is possible to keep citruses in the dark with the fruits if temperatures are not exceeding +10C. For my "cold hardy " hybrids I prefer in arctic episodes to keep them either in the dark in poly-foam cover or to use hessian cover with ventilation. It keeps soil unfrozen and prevents sun beats in the day time.

14
Thank you Ilya11, this is helpful information. I have recently bought two valentines and it would be sad not to get them ripening because of temperature or sunshine. May I ask how you keep your valentine in winter? I'm bringing them all in with artificial light and temps between low 60's at night and depending of sunshine ( one east and one south window in that room) temp can go to 78 or so. If I would need it to go 83 or higher, I would need to put either a heater in that room or get the trees in the kitchen where it will be warmer during the day.
I am trying to keep it as much as I can outside. In the winter it is close to the door of my garage and unheated frame backing the South side of the house. It is mounted on the small cart and I am moving it inside only when night temperatures descend to -4C. Inside the garage in the dark it can be kept for around two weeks at temperatures around 8C.

15
Thank you so much everyone for your answer! I will skip this variety and everything related to pummelos and also grapefruit.
Please do not listen to these   "negative" opinions; I suspect many od them they are not coming from  genuine experience  but are  kind of post-truth.
In Paris region, that is more to the North than Montreal the sun light is sufficient to ripen Valentine in less than one year. In each climate it is worth to make your own experience, the citruses are hiding many surprises and are very rewarding.

16
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: July 14, 2017, 04:06:09 PM »
It could be interesting to get it on own roots and try to propagate from root cuttings.
In this case layers will be different.

17
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Growing lemons from seed?
« on: July 11, 2017, 01:48:39 PM »
nucellular ( true from seeds)  ;)
Sorry for the slip.

18
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Growing lemons from seed?
« on: July 11, 2017, 10:24:55 AM »
Very few citrus are obligatory ( 100% zygotic) not true from seeds.
 For the rest, the proportion of nucellular (  true from seeds) and zygotic seedlings largely depends on cultivation environment , presence of other pollinators, temperatures etc.
Mr texas, from what I read elsewhere and my own experience Kishu is obligatory not true from seeds.

19
Both should be used with precaution, but actually colchicine is a registered human drug being used to treat gout and is available in pharmacy under prescription. It is a natural toxin and is acutely poisonous in higher doses.
http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-8640/colchicine-oral/details
Oryzaline is suspected to be human carcinogen and endocrine disruptor, but acutely it is less toxic when swallowed.

20
Solko,
The link was for replica technique. For effect of polyploidization on citrus stomata, see for example the following papers:
http://www.pakbs.org/pjbot/PDFs/40(4)/PJB40(4)1755.pdf
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jsbbs1951/36/4/36_4_371/_pdf
Some triploids are giving occasionally seeds, but their number is very small.
Many diploid citrus varieties are able to form fruits without pollination, its prevention in this case is also giving seedless fruits.

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Phelps Citrange
« on: July 03, 2017, 03:51:21 PM »
Phelps was produced in the beginning of 20th century together with 12 named citranges by pollination of one flower of Ruby Red orange by poncirus  .
http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1962-vol-75/5-13%20(COOPER).pdf
It was very bitter in taste. I guess it was lost long time ago.

22
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: July 03, 2017, 03:24:10 PM »
My Prague never had flowers with functional styles.

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Taichang lemon
« on: June 30, 2017, 03:45:34 AM »
Thank you. I have some other plants from your seeds, but Taichang is the largest and most vigorous.
It is now 2 meters high and hopefully will flower soon.

24
Ilya, that is very interesting, I never heard of that before. I just examined my microscope and since it is an antique one I think I can get up to 60x or maybe 100x.
That makes your method very interesting, except the plant I want to test is not citrus. Do you know wether your method works for other genera as well? I think I may have a tetraploid Pitanga, based on relative leaf size, vigor and growth rate, compared to the rest of the batch of seeds. I would like  to verify that using my microscope but I have no idea wether that is feasible or not.
I have the other seedlings to compare the plant with, so maybe your test will already give some results.
Have you ever done this kind of testing yourself? Or could you direct me to more reading on the web on the method you mention? All help is very appreciated.
Thanks!
It is working on any higher plant specie. The method is simple and is a part of practical botany courses in many universities.
stomata size measurement
It can be used even with very simple USB connected 200X microscope camera.
I posted some photo on Agrumes-Passion forum, but it is currently down.

25
Chromosome counting can not be done easily without special fixings, stains and rather powerful microscopes.
The easiest "kitchen" methods for ploidy determination is comparative measuring of leaf stomata replicas
with the help of nail polish (colorless) and a microscope (x40 - x100 will do). You apply the nail polish on a clean dry leaf, wait for it to dry and the peel it off. Afterwards you mount the peeled nail polish on a slide and cover with glass slip.

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