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Author Topic: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown  (Read 11330 times)

Jose Spain

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #100 on: August 13, 2017, 05:52:14 AM »
I got a question for you guys. Given that shipping from USA can take up to 3 weeks and that Customs here is becoming more a more careful with vegetal stuff because of diseases like Xilella, purchasing scions is kind of a very risky bet for us. I've been said by another grower from Europe that rate of taking for imported scions from America is really low because of that. So I'm thinking now of another strategy to do it: Would be a safer, more successful way to get these new varieties, to bring fresh seeds of those that are poliembrionics? How long would a mango seed keep its germination capacity?

Why don't you pay for EMS?  About $45. I shipped mango scions from Florida to Phillipines and it took 5 days only.

Because of Customs, from USA to Spain EMS is 65Ä, if Customs agents see a small, very light packet and 65$ for shipping, they will most likely stop it and open it. That's the problem with scions.

Nothing is allowed technically, but I had a lot of EMS traffic seeds to US, few from from US,  quite a bit within SE Asia and nothing ever got confiscated. Sometimes you just have to be bold and count your lucky stars.
You could also send first to one of the relaxed EU countries up north if you have friends there and than forward within EU.  Those countries with relaxed customs and don't care about tropical stuff, it presents zero danger to them.

Lucky you that never got nothing confiscated, but you are sharing your experience in Asia, so this is kind of futile comparison  :-\ . Here in EU things work different, growers that have expended hundreds of $ in scions got a lot of stuff either confiscated or delayed, so they got a very low percentage of successful grafts, if any. It doesn't matter either to which country you send them, rules are the same for all the Union as we are a single market, and an agriculture disaster in Spain and Italy do affect the whole of us. Besides with scions is all about time, adding another step to their travel don't resolve the problem: the longer it takes to arrive, the lower the rate of success. So in the specific case of poliembrionic mangoes, seeds seem to me like a possible good alternative to get some varieties. That's why I'd like to know if anybody have experience sending/receiving seeds, how long they keep they germination capacity and how well they resist all the shipping process.
Jose

Guanabanus

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #101 on: August 13, 2017, 08:30:53 AM »
5 days is great, in air-conditioned transport.  With fungicide moistened paper or cloth, and air-conditioned transport most of the time,  you can probably get some survivors at 3 weeks.
Har

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #102 on: September 09, 2017, 04:01:25 PM »
Has anyone confirmed if Pina Colada is Polyembryonic? I believe Future said his came up with multiple Sprouts. Also, are there any other top teir varieties that are polyembryonic such as Fruit Punch, Phoenix, cotton Candy, etc...? By the way, in case anyone has seeds from these known polyembryonic varieties, I'm looking to buy some. I'm volunteering at mostly older folks homes and planting polyembryonic mango seeds from top tier varieties. Thanks for any info or seeds!

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #103 on: September 09, 2017, 04:19:18 PM »
Simon...fruit punch is mono.
Warren

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #104 on: September 09, 2017, 05:26:18 PM »
Has anyone confirmed if Pina Colada is Polyembryonic? I believe Future said his came up with multiple Sprouts. Also, are there any other top teir varieties that are polyembryonic such as Fruit Punch, Phoenix, cotton Candy, etc...? By the way, in case anyone has seeds from these known polyembryonic varieties, I'm looking to buy some. I'm volunteering at mostly older folks homes and planting polyembryonic mango seeds from top tier varieties. Thanks for any info or seeds!

Simon

Cotton Candy is poly.

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #105 on: September 09, 2017, 07:41:02 PM »
Thanks Warren and Future! I believe the top tier polyembryonic varieties are:
PPK, Lemon Zest, Orange Sherbet, Coconut Cream, Pina Colada, Cotton Candy. Please let me know if I missed any and thanks for everyone's input!

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #106 on: September 09, 2017, 07:44:56 PM »
Recently watched a video on Truly Tropical channel on YouTube,  Chris says that the Pickering is Poly,  I have a tree, and never really bothered to check the seed, I always assumed it was Mono for some reason.

Two pickerings sprouted under my tree. They turned out to be mono.
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behlgarden

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #107 on: October 04, 2017, 10:54:10 AM »
Thanks Warren and Future! I believe the top tier polyembryonic varieties are:
PPK, Lemon Zest, Orange Sherbet, Coconut Cream, Pina Colada, Cotton Candy. Please let me know if I missed any and thanks for everyone's input!

Simon


add peach cobbler to the list, unless the seed mutated. I pulled out the seed and its got multiple embryos, I am going to grow it.

sapote

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #108 on: October 04, 2017, 03:32:48 PM »
What is the full name of  PPK?
When I searched for picture of Peach Cobbler mango, Orange Sherbet mango, Coconut Cream mango, Cotton Candy mango, I got all pictures of food and not fruits??? These names are common to dessert disks and it makes difficult to look for information of these mangoes.
Btw this link , from the creator, says Coconut Cream is mono (although some poly) at 1:26 in to the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxfpWgelDm4

Iím trying to match up the fruit picture of my mysterious Edward with polyembryonic seed bought from Toptrop. I asked them and the answer was they think mine is Edward. Who to believe?


behlgarden

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #109 on: October 04, 2017, 04:14:48 PM »
if you can find pictures of 2017 tasting OR 2016 tasting from So Cal, you will see picture of each mango and its cut fruit. We had most mangoes covered in tastings with the exception of few Late OR new unreleased Zills.

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #110 on: October 04, 2017, 06:30:39 PM »
Thanks for the info Behl!

Sapote, PPK is all Pyu Kalay. Truly Tropical has a YouTube video about it. It is also known as Lemon Meringue.

Coconut Cream has the strangest looking seeds I have ever seen and all the seeds I got so far have been polyembryonic but difficult to germinate because only a few people are growing it here and it ripens around this time of year right before the cold weather hits. The Poly seed segments are odd shapes and the resulting seedlings are somewhat twisted. All my seedlings died last year but the seeds were old and somewhat moldy when I received them. The single CC seed I received from the recent Mango tasting was treated with bottom heat and two seedlings have sprouted roots from different segments of the seed.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #111 on: October 04, 2017, 08:30:17 PM »
Thanks for the info Behl!

Sapote, PPK is all Pyu Kalay. Truly Tropical has a YouTube video about it. It is also known as Lemon Meringue.

Coconut Cream has the strangest looking seeds I have ever seen and all the seeds I got so far have been polyembryonic but difficult to germinate because only a few people are growing it here and it ripens around this time of year right before the cold weather hits. The Poly seed segments are odd shapes and the resulting seedlings are somewhat twisted. All my seedlings died last year but the seeds were old and somewhat moldy when I received them. The single CC seed I received from the recent Mango tasting was treated with bottom heat and two seedlings have sprouted roots from different segments of the seed.

Simon

That was meant to read Po Pyu Kalay.

Peach Cobbler poly?  Not from my memory.

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #112 on: October 05, 2017, 11:02:50 AM »
Thanks for the correction Future, the autocorrect always gets me when Iím typing too fast.

I will put Peach Cobbler on the ďmaybe listĒ until we get more samples. I believe Cotton Candy still needs additional confirmation as well.

The good news is that PPK, Lemon Zest, Orange Sherbet and Sweet Tart are confirmed polyembryonic most of the time and these are some of my favorite mangos.

Iím not going to go in depth about this but I just wanted to mention that there is some research out there that suggest that when a tree is grown in a stressful environment such as one under disease pressures( Phomopsis, BBS, anthracnose, Powdery Mildew) the stress pressures can alter the DNA in such a way that specific genes may be turned on or off.

By planting seeds of our favorite varieties which were grown under these stressors, the resulting seedling plants may be genetically predispositioned to better ward off such environmental stressors. With each generation of seedlings grown in that same location, there is a better likelihood of actually turning on specific genes which may help combat the disease pressures or alternatively the resulting seedlings may turn off specific genes which may also help ward off diseases.

Simon

behlgarden

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #113 on: October 05, 2017, 11:47:52 AM »
Thanks for the info Behl!

Sapote, PPK is all Pyu Kalay. Truly Tropical has a YouTube video about it. It is also known as Lemon Meringue.

Coconut Cream has the strangest looking seeds I have ever seen and all the seeds I got so far have been polyembryonic but difficult to germinate because only a few people are growing it here and it ripens around this time of year right before the cold weather hits. The Poly seed segments are odd shapes and the resulting seedlings are somewhat twisted. All my seedlings died last year but the seeds were old and somewhat moldy when I received them. The single CC seed I received from the recent Mango tasting was treated with bottom heat and two seedlings have sprouted roots from different segments of the seed.

Simon

That was meant to read Po Pyu Kalay.

Peach Cobbler poly?  Not from my memory.

got 7 embryos from one seed, have sowed it and will see what comes out. previous seeds yielded single embriyo. its interesting how there can be variations. also not sure if cross pollination plays any role in how seed is formed? obviously genetic changes happen in seed.

Future

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #114 on: October 05, 2017, 06:16:03 PM »
Thanks for the info Behl!

Sapote, PPK is all Pyu Kalay. Truly Tropical has a YouTube video about it. It is also known as Lemon Meringue.

Coconut Cream has the strangest looking seeds I have ever seen and all the seeds I got so far have been polyembryonic but difficult to germinate because only a few people are growing it here and it ripens around this time of year right before the cold weather hits. The Poly seed segments are odd shapes and the resulting seedlings are somewhat twisted. All my seedlings died last year but the seeds were old and somewhat moldy when I received them. The single CC seed I received from the recent Mango tasting was treated with bottom heat and two seedlings have sprouted roots from different segments of the seed.

Simon

That was meant to read Po Pyu Kalay.

Peach Cobbler poly?  Not from my memory.

got 7 embryos from one seed, have sowed it and will see what comes out. previous seeds yielded single embriyo. its interesting how there can be variations. also not sure if cross pollination plays any role in how seed is formed? obviously genetic changes happen in seed.

7 sprouts...interesting.  As far as I know, cross pollination has no effect on seeds, just subsequent plant and its fruit.

Tropicdude

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #115 on: October 05, 2017, 11:45:11 PM »
Thanks for the correction Future, the autocorrect always gets me when Iím typing too fast.

I will put Peach Cobbler on the ďmaybe listĒ until we get more samples. I believe Cotton Candy still needs additional confirmation as well.

The good news is that PPK, Lemon Zest, Orange Sherbet and Sweet Tart are confirmed polyembryonic most of the time and these are some of my favorite mangos.

Iím not going to go in depth about this but I just wanted to mention that there is some research out there that suggest that when a tree is grown in a stressful environment such as one under disease pressures( Phomopsis, BBS, anthracnose, Powdery Mildew) the stress pressures can alter the DNA in such a way that specific genes may be turned on or off.

By planting seeds of our favorite varieties which were grown under these stressors, the resulting seedling plants may be genetically predispositioned to better ward off such environmental stressors. With each generation of seedlings grown in that same location, there is a better likelihood of actually turning on specific genes which may help combat the disease pressures or alternatively the resulting seedlings may turn off specific genes which may also help ward off diseases.

Simon

This is new science which I have looked into a bit,  epi-genetics, and agree,  I think it is possible that certain conditions, can change gene expression in offspring.  a few years back,  the whole human genome mapping was in the news,  we thought erroneously that finally we will know what each gene does, and be able to splice and create a GATTACA type world.  we found out that genes are just the tip of the iceberg.   we still have not mapped all the epi-genetic possibilities.    anyway this is deviating from main topic.    again it is very possible that given the right factors,  that certain genes can turn on or off, 

eventually we might have mangoes mapped out, and know what each gene does and how it is involved in traits the tree and fruit  will have.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316283834_Genetic_Map_of_Mango_A_Tool_for_Mango_Breeding

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260154077_Characterization_of_mango_Mangifera_indica_L_transcriptome_and_chloroplast_genome
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 11:56:31 PM by Tropicdude »
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simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #116 on: October 06, 2017, 12:01:15 PM »
I am growing out a couple polyembryonic mango varieties that have horrible issues with Powdery Mildew when grown at my location. These varieties are Lemon Zest and Nam Doc Mai. Ive read that NDM is pretty disease resistant in Florida but I believe the strain we have here is different and NDM panicles are heavily affected. Lemon Zest is one of my all time favorite mango but it too is also heavily affected by Powdery Mildew. Pm is especially bad for LZ because itís ideal moisture and temperature preference seems to coincide with the LZ bloom period. The bloom period here in SoCal can last a long time due to our cooler ambient temperatures which gives the PM a longer window period to attack the blooms and newly set fruit.

I hope that by planting these LZ and NDM seedlings grown in my(or Leo Manuelís) yard where disease pressures are high, I will eventually be able to get a seedling selection that is more adaptable to my specific growing conditions although it may take multiple generations to turn on or off the genes that may give it better resistance to PM.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #117 on: October 06, 2017, 03:48:21 PM »
is orange essence or any of the newer ones that came out with it poly?

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #118 on: October 06, 2017, 05:06:56 PM »
I am growing out a couple polyembryonic mango varieties that have horrible issues with Powdery Mildew when grown at my location. These varieties are Lemon Zest
Simon

Simon, my lemon zest seedling was pristine and clean no issues of PM, and leaves are more fragrant than parent. I am anxious for it to fruit next year. it is now 3.5 yr old seedling.

kh0110

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2017, 05:16:20 PM »
My LZ was grafted on the Fake Alphonso which in turn was grafted on a Lavern Manila and it has no problem what so ever except on the fruits where there was severe anthracnose as shown in photo below. Only on fruits, 3 out of 4.


Thera

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2017, 06:20:07 PM »
Thanks for the confirmation Thera, I have also confirmed that Lavern Manilla is an excellent rootstock and when Lemon Zest is grafted onto it, it is able to fruit normally. Please see reply #64 for pictures and info on the differences I have noticed in my yard when LZ is grown on different rootstocks. http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15673.50

Simon

kh0110

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2017, 09:37:09 PM »
One thing to note here, Simon, is that the Fake Alphonso is an excellent inter-stock here in So Cal (extremely vigorous and problem free) and probably also an excellent rootstock (to be confirmed).
Thera

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2017, 10:47:17 PM »
Most of the splotching on the Lemon Zests pictured, is natural coloration of the variety, like patches of woods in fields of golden grain.

The fruit on the right does have some blackening, possibly anthracnose, on top of a natural green-colored spot.
Har

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2017, 11:20:54 PM »
Thank you, Har, for the precious info. Now I like the Fake Alphonso more and more.
Thera

 

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