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Author Topic: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown  (Read 9286 times)

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2016, 08:15:11 PM »
Future, if I tecall correctly, you planted several poly seeds back home. How are they growing for you? Do your LZ seedlings have the typical wavy look like the parent tree?

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2016, 08:51:36 PM »
Yah, those seeds look polyembryonic.

The quickest way to go from seed to fruit is to chop back a mature mango tree and topwork to it. Seedlings will flower in 18 - 30 months vs 5 - 8 years if sown in the ground. But you need to topwork a portion of the tree that has very high vigor (not just a random branch tip).

To avoid the possibility of getting an off type, you can simply topwork your tree with 2 or 3 seedlings.

However, if you have access to budwood (as should be case with sweet tart and lemon zest), you are probably better off just utilizing budwood from a grafted tree.

If you're of the adventurous type, you could select a seedling that has characteristics which are different from the mother tree vs trying to find the asexual embryos and simply producing one more clone of the same tree. For example, you could try to find a lemon zest seedling with a different leaf shape (but with the same citrussy smelling sap), which could yield another hit like the orange sherbet -- and you could name it Simon's Sherbet :-).
Jeff  :-)

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2016, 10:51:21 PM »
Simons sherbet, I don't even want to go there, lol!

Jeff, my problem is that our trees here in SoCal fruit too soon and continue flowering for half the year if not longer.  I hope that by planting seedlings and not having to graft them, this will enable them to grow vegetatively without wasting energy on flowering.

 I recently top worked one of Leos trees with one of his special creations and put it on a vigorous rootstock that is probably 10+ years old. I will see if he wants me to topworked one of his other established trees with some of the top rated varieties from Florida. unfortunately, Leo is getting a little sensitive to sugar so I'll be looking more for varieties that are sweet but not ultra sweet, at least for Leos yard.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2016, 07:42:26 PM »
Future, if I tecall correctly, you planted several poly seeds back home. How are they growing for you? Do your LZ seedlings have the typical wavy look like the parent tree?

Simon

I do have the wavy leaf!

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2016, 12:53:17 AM »
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2016, 12:43:09 PM »
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon

Tying branches down is said to produce double the trunk thickness in the same time.  Girdling is another way to speed up time to production from seed. 

JF

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2016, 12:53:33 PM »
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon

Simon
I don't consider LZ superior than its parent. PPK is much more consistent and better tasting in my opinion

Future

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2016, 01:01:28 PM »
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon

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I don't consider LZ superior than its parent. PPK is much more consistent and better tasting in my opinion

JF - this is borderline blasphemous. (I'm joking). 

I am told one theory on why Walter Zills LZ tree has been struck so hard by disease the last two years is the degree of worship of the LZ.

All hail the LZ!

(PPK is tough to beat on flavour.  And was more consistent for me this summer.  I do give LZ a edge, by the slimmest of margins, on flavour). 

JF

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2016, 01:08:46 PM »
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon

Simon
I don't consider LZ superior than its parent. PPK is much more consistent and better tasting in my opinion

JF - this is borderline blasphemous. (I'm joking). 

I am told one theory on why Walter Zills LZ tree has been struck so hard by disease the last two years is the degree of worship of the LZ.

All hail the LZ!

(PPK is tough to beat on flavour.  And was more consistent for me this summer.  I do give LZ a edge, by the slimmest of margins, on flavour).

Future
Funny😀
I've had some really good LZ in the last 3-4 years,. PPK has always been consistently excellent. I do agree in a good LZ year that mango is hard to beat.

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2016, 12:33:16 AM »
Thanks for the confirmation. I've recently read a lot about polyembryonic mangos and I really feel that seedlings are a viable option for people wanting trees to grow larger before flowering or for those that can't get a specific variety any other way. Genetic differences in clones may give an even better mango than the original parent as the Lemon Meringue gave rise to the Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet.

Simon

Simon
I don't consider LZ superior than its parent. PPK is much more consistent and better tasting in my opinion

Thanks for the heads up JF! I decided to finally put my Po Pyu Kalai into the ground. I really love the entire line of PPK and its offsprings and feel that this entire line of PPK, LZ and OS will make excellent candidates for seed propogation. I've got seeds of LZ planted in several of my friends and family's yards so hopefully we will get more citrusy ultra sweet mangos with a twist in the near future.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2016, 06:20:15 PM »
LZ is mono





Funny Frank, two LZ seeds I grew were both poly. these seeds were from tasting and I only had LZ and Coco Cream, both poly.

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2016, 07:09:43 PM »
I confirmed that LZ, Coconut Cream and Sweet Tart are all Polyembryonic at least sometimes. Out of all the LZ seeds i have, only one did not appear to have sectioned seeds. Here is my previous Lemon Zest Project: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12023.25 which shows I got multiple sprouts. Sometimes only one sprout comes out even if you have a multi sectioned seed because some of the seedlings are very weak. I've had embryos the size of a pinky fingernail in many instances.

Simon


simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2016, 07:16:21 PM »
Sweet Tart


Lemon Zest


Coconut Cream


Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2016, 09:54:04 PM »
I know I'm digging up an old thread but it sparked some curiosity.  Are the seeds mentioned really poly and is anyone growing them out with confidance that they will have clone of a CC,LZ or ST? 

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #64 on: January 01, 2017, 12:47:28 AM »
Interesting. The only mangoes I have from seed are polyembryonic.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 12:49:07 AM by Garcinia »
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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #65 on: January 01, 2017, 12:01:04 PM »
Remember, that with polyembrionic seeds, there is one embryo that was produced by plant sex, Pollination, and which, therefore is not a "clone." Even if the pollen came from another flower on the same tree, genetic re-shuffling has occurred.  A person can usually detect some difference, when caomparing to the other seedlings arising from the same polyembrionic seed.

The other seedlings from that seed are truly "clones", in other words, exact genetic copies of the mother tree, unless a mutation has occurred.
Har

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2017, 12:29:04 PM »
Been trying to compile the data on some of the fruit mentioned,  If anyone can confirm the following.

Poly:
Sweet Tart
PPK
Coconut Cream
Lemon Zest
Cac
Orange Sherbet
Cotton Candy

Mono:
Kathy
Taralay
Edgar
Amy
Peach Cobbler

Have not found data for these  ( still reading through the posts ) , any input?
Honey Kiss
Venus
Fruit Punch
Phoenix
Seacrest
Providence
Juicy Peach
Little Gem
Nancy


I will edit this when new information comes in.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 08:05:41 PM by Tropicdude »
William
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behlgarden

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2017, 12:56:15 PM »
Been trying to compile the data on some of the fruit mentioned,  If anyone can confirm the following.

Poly:
Sweet Tart ?
PPK
Coconut Cream
Lemon Zest


Mono:
Fruit Punch?


Have not found data for these  ( still reading through the posts ) , any input?
Honey Kiss
Venus
Fruit Punch
Cotton Candy
Phoenix
Kathy
Seacrest
Providence
Juicy Peach
Peach Cobbler
Little Gem
Nancy
Edgar

I will edit this when new information comes in.

I got multiple seedlings out of Lemon Zest and Coco Cream, and Sweet Tart. Single seedling out of Peach Cobbler.

TnTrobbie

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2017, 01:11:25 PM »
I have multiple Sweet Tart seedlings and they were all poly.
Edgar was mono
OS...poly
Amy...mono
Kathy...mono
Taralay...mono
Cac...poly.
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Future

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2017, 05:00:21 PM »
Cotton Candy is poly

Mark in Texas

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #70 on: May 26, 2017, 10:49:28 AM »
I have said it before......
I think some of these new Zills are mono-poly hybrids that can go either way within a given variety. Such as LZ for example. Some LZ seeds will sprout mono and some sprout poly. Or like what you have

Excuse me for asking a dumb question but what are the pros and cons of mono over poly with mango?  I know the value regarding citrus polys which come true from seed like orange, grapefruit, key lime.

Tropicdude

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #71 on: May 26, 2017, 10:57:43 AM »
I have said it before......
I think some of these new Zills are mono-poly hybrids that can go either way within a given variety. Such as LZ for example. Some LZ seeds will sprout mono and some sprout poly. Or like what you have

Excuse me for asking a dumb question but what are the pros and cons of mono over poly with mango?  I know the value regarding citrus polys which come true from seed like orange, grapefruit, key lime.

Pros for Poly:   As a root stock,  using the clone will mean that root stock will be consistent.  and you can expect the same results.   Poly seeds also generally come up true to parent.    its much easier to mail a seed, than a whole plant.

Cons for Poly:  In general,  the seed is larger,  so there is less seed to flesh ratio.   not so much a problem with large fruited varieties, more noticeable in small fruit.  again this is just on average.   and may not be that important for backyard growers.
William
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simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #72 on: May 26, 2017, 12:01:54 PM »
I'm not Zands but mono seeds will not grow true to seed whereas Polyembryonic seeds should have one zygotic seedling produced from selfing or from cross pollination and the rest of the seedlings should in theory be clones of the parent. This is basically the same as nucellar seedlings in Citrus.

Polyembryonic seedlings are especially important, in my personal opinion, because they are seedlings and lack the florigenic hormones that cause young, 1 foot grafted trees to flower in cold climates like mine.

Polyembryonic varieties are especially important to mango breeders as use for rootstocks because of their predictable behavior.  http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20816.0

Thanks to Bsbullie for mentioning it in another thread, I never considered using the smell of the sap of crushed leaves(Zills technique) to determine the potential quality of seedlings. I used this technique and hypothesized that one can combine this technique with what we know about polyembrony in order to use the sap smell as a built in genetic marker, similar to how a researcher would insert the green flourescent protein as a marker that is clearly visible and identifiable. In our case, we would use our sense of smell to detect the clone but this only works for polyembryonic varieties most notably from the newer Zill selections that have a strong unmistakable sap smell such as Sweet Tart and Lemon Zest among others.

I confuse myself sometimes so what I'm trying to say is that we are lucky to have these strong sap smelling polyembryonic mango varieties like Sweet Tart because they have a built in clone indicator, the smell of their sap.

This year, I have plans to plant out many Sweet Tart seeds to test it as an alternative rootstock to Lavern Manilla for those trying to grow mango in colder marginal climates such as in SoCal. The Lavern Manilla grows great here but the fruit is horrible and not everyone knows how to graft. Additionally, the Lavern Manilla rootstock IS Polyembryonic but there are no Phenotypic markers allowing the nursery worker or tree purchaser to know with confidence that the tree is actually a clone. Without knowing that you have a clone, the predictability about the growth and fruiting behavior of that tree goes out the window.

I like Lemon Zest more than Sweet Tart but LZ has horrible issues with Powdery Mildew on specific rootstocks. The information I've found for Sweet Tart so far have indicated that it could be an excellent rootstock for marginal climates because of the following:
1) Vigor- its large size and fast growth will enable it to establish and reach fruiting size faster. In my area, mangos seem to grow at about 1/2 to 1/4 the rate compared to South Florida.
2) Polyembryonic- it has a built in Phenotypic marker that allows us to select the clone with confidence. Once the growth and fruiting attributes have been observed and documented, we will have a reliable tree with excellent tasting fruits that grows and fruits with predictability. Observations need to be made on seedling Sweet Tart trees and not ones that are already grafted onto other various rootstocks.
3) Disease resistance- observations made from trees grafted onto Florida rootstock as well as various other rootstocks including Lavern Manilla indicate that this variety is quite Disease resistant. I have not observed any issues with it regarding Anthracnose nor Powdery Mildew.
4) Production- this variety is one of the most productive varieties I have seen. Even small trees will set fruit and try to hold them to maturity. This is actually an issue for people growing mango in colder climates where I am recommending that we grow our trees to maturity( fruiting size) before allowing it to flower and fruit but this is a moot point because I am recommending that we grow seedlings which are not grafted and will thus likely not fruit until it reaches physical maturity.
5) Taste- recent taste evaluations at local mango tastings has ranked this variety at or near the top of polls.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2017, 02:47:43 PM »
I also think that a directed planted seed,  will have a healthier root system, and be more drought tolerant.  yes the tree will probably grow bigger than a crafted one, but not everyone wants a compact tree.

regarding your root stock experiment, sound cool.   I recently posted in another thread, a study that the aussies did,  If I remember well it was over 60 different roots stocks,  there was huge difference between root stock , and here is the interesting thing,  one root stock best for one variety was not the best for another.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/6/1720/T2.expansion.html
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/6/1720.full
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 02:58:17 PM by Tropicdude »
William
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simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #74 on: May 26, 2017, 04:24:01 PM »
Yup agreed, one rootstock may work well for one variety but not for another. I personally want a huge mango tree, at least as big as the ones Leo Manuel has but I don't want to wait the 15-25 years.

Simon

 

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