Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers



Author Topic: whole new subcategories of citrus  (Read 1767 times)

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
whole new subcategories of citrus
« on: June 12, 2017, 10:01:11 PM »
Like a color palette, from just a handful of original citrus species has resulted all sorts of new families, each with their own unique character.

Repeatedly backcrossing a pomelo with mandarin resulted in the common Orange. And the flavor is not quite the same as either of its original ancestors. All that selective inbreeding eliminated nuances in flavor and resulted in high levels of Valencene.
Cross an Orange again with a tangerine (mandarin) and you get a Tangor.

When a Pomelo that had been brought to Jamaica inadvertently hybridized with Orange and the resulting offspring, which had small sour fruits that grew in clusters like grapes, began spreading in the wild, that was the start of the lineage that today is known as grapefruit. And grapefruit, while similar to pomelo in many respects, also has its own unique flavor differences. It developed very high levels of the pungent sweet compound thioterpineol, the most characteristic component of grapefruit aroma.

Cross a grapefruit with a mandarin and you get a Tangelo (which really does taste like a cross between mandarin and pomelo).
Cross a tangelo with a pomelo again and you get a Tangelolo.
These are all just varying combinations on a spectrum between mandarin and pomelo, yet each family is unique and has its own taste.
Cocktail Grapefruit was a hybrid between grapefruit and mandarin, but is still considered a grapefruit.
And what if you cross a grapefruit with a pomelo? Oro Blanco is conveniently easy to categorize as a grapefruit because its pomelo parent happened to be Siamese Sweet, which did not have much flavor of its own to contribute. So Oro Blanco mostly takes on the grapefruit flavor of its Duncan parent.

There are so many potential combinations. What other new families could be possible?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 10:03:33 PM by SoCal2warm »

brian

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
    • Pennsylvania (zone 6)
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2017, 10:27:01 AM »
I want more kumquat hybrids.  There don't seem to be any active breeding programs that I'm aware of.  Small size and sweet edible skin seem like great attributes to incorporate into popular varieties but the existing hybrids are lacking.

mikkel

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2017, 11:24:56 AM »
I always wondered how all these different Citrus types could evolve just by crossing different species. On the top these are still stable types an orange is an orange you won`t get any segregation in the F2 back to the parents.
If Yuzu is a simple cross between Ichang Papeda and a mandarin how could it stay stable for such a long time without splitting in uncountable different varieties.
Okay it is a long time ago that these types evolved so maybe there was selection and these type got stable over the time by that. But also Thomasville, a young hybrid compared to them is almost stable when sown. I am aware of nucellar seedlings but also the few monoembryotic and probably zygotic ones differ only slightly from it. haven`t seen any segregation towards trifoliate leaves in seedlings so far.
E.g. if you cross different wild apple species you won`t get a new species. At least F2 would segregate back to the parents. The only other example for a stable new species / variety is Aesculus carnea a cross between the european Aesculus and an american one. Seedlings will give A. carnea again.
Any thoughts?

brian

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
    • Pennsylvania (zone 6)
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2017, 12:08:46 PM »
I believe the stability of citrus you refer to is from human selection by planting seeds of varieties they've found wild or bred, which works for citrus prior to the discovery of cloning techniques because they often come true from seed.   Apples not only don't come true from seed, they are known to produce offspring exceptionally different from their parents.  I don't know much about the history of eating apples but I expect the oldest apple varieties are simply the best varieties available at the time grafting was discovered.

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2017, 12:24:33 PM »
Once a new fruit variety becomes repeatedly inbred over several generations, it becomes stable. This was much more common in old times obviously than modern hybrids.

I don't know much about the history of eating apples but I expect the oldest apple varieties are simply the best varieties available at the time grafting was discovered.
Crabapples had long grown wild and been cultivated in Europe, but were used primarily for cooking. It was not until larger apples arrived from the Northwestern mountain desert region of China that the two were able to be interbred into modern apple varieties. There's a theory that the reason fruits of different species (such as pomegranate) are so large in this region is because large mammal species used to inhabit this area of the world in prehistoric times, as it was fertile grass plains.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 12:55:44 PM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2017, 12:40:03 PM »
If Yuzu is a simple cross between Ichang Papeda and a mandarin how could it stay stable for such a long time without splitting in uncountable different varieties.
It's obvious yuzu is not a simple hybrid but rather had been propagated from seed as its own variety over successive generations, or had propagated on its own in the wild. Once there is enough inbreeding, the genome becomes homozygous and inheritable traits stabilize. Then yuzu is practically its own species (or subspecies if you prefer to look at it that way). I believe yuzu came from somewhere in the inland mountain region in Southern China (originally, before it was brought to Japan during the Tang dynasty). The Japanese later used yuzu (inadvertently quite likely because yuzu pollinated other citrus trees) to breed their own unique families of citrus. I believe that even Satsuma mandarin probably has a small amount of yuzu genes, which contributes to its subtle but unique flavor. These varieties are not simple hybrids. There was a hybridization event, then sometimes a little backcrossing, and then the new variety, after being recognized as such, was repeatedly inbred. None of this was really intentional, citrus were often grown from seeds at the time.

Ilya11

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2017, 02:22:26 PM »
I want more kumquat hybrids.  There don't seem to be any active breeding programs that I'm aware of.  Small size and sweet edible skin seem like great attributes to incorporate into popular varieties but the existing hybrids are lacking.
Pure kumquats are difficult to hybridize with citruses, progeny if any is aberrant.
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjshs1/79/1/79_1_16/_pdf
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Ilya11

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2017, 02:30:57 PM »
But also Thomasville, a young hybrid compared to them is almost stable when sown. I am aware of nucellar seedlings but also the few monoembryotic and probably zygotic ones differ only slightly from it. haven`t seen any segregation towards trifoliate leaves in seedlings so far.

Any thoughts?
I tried a lot to produce hybrids with Thomasville as a seed parent, but failed up to now.
Never seen any  zygotic seedlings from it.
But when I used  its pollen on 5* citrumelo flowers it gave two fruits  and dozen zygotic seedlings.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mrtexas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
    • USA, Sugarland,TX 9B
    • View Profile
    • MrTexasCitrus
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2017, 06:57:29 PM »
If Yuzu is a simple cross between Ichang Papeda and a mandarin how could it stay stable for such a long time without splitting in uncountable different varieties.
It's obvious yuzu is not a simple hybrid but rather had been propagated from seed as its own variety over successive generations, or had propagated on its own in the wild. Once there is enough inbreeding, the genome becomes homozygous and inheritable traits stabilize. Then yuzu is practically its own species (or subspecies if you prefer to look at it that way). I believe yuzu came from somewhere in the inland mountain region in Southern China (originally, before it was brought to Japan during the Tang dynasty). The Japanese later used yuzu (inadvertently quite likely because yuzu pollinated other citrus trees) to breed their own unique families of citrus. I believe that even Satsuma mandarin probably has a small amount of yuzu genes, which contributes to its subtle but unique flavor. These varieties are not simple hybrids. There was a hybridization event, then sometimes a little backcrossing, and then the new variety, after being recognized as such, was repeatedly inbred. None of this was really intentional, citrus were often grown from seeds at the time.

Yuzu is not true from seed. It has been used to make many hybrids.

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 12:14:01 AM »
Yuzu is not true from seed. It has been used to make many hybrids.
That's not what "true to seed" means.

When we say true to seed, we're not talking about if it gets pollenized by another citrus variety.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 12:15:51 AM by SoCal2warm »

mikkel

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 02:40:28 AM »
But also Thomasville, a young hybrid compared to them is almost stable when sown. I am aware of nucellar seedlings but also the few monoembryotic and probably zygotic ones differ only slightly from it. haven`t seen any segregation towards trifoliate leaves in seedlings so far.

Any thoughts?
I tried a lot to produce hybrids with Thomasville as a seed parent, but failed up to now.
Never seen any  zygotic seedlings from it.
But when I used  its pollen on 5* citrumelo flowers it gave two fruits  and dozen zygotic seedlings.
Thanks. A lot of my seedlings are monozygotic but probably not zygotic then. I`ll keep an eye on them.

Ilya11

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 04:20:08 AM »
You probably mean that they are monoembryonic, but not zygotic?
It is rather common situation in many citruses. Very often a single strong nucellar embryo overdevelop zygotic one.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35
    • Lueneburg, Germany Zone 7
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 05:26:57 AM »
Yes that is what I meant. Didn`t know that monoembryotic are often nucellar too.

Ilya11

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 05:36:22 AM »
This depends both on variety as well as seasonal conditions during fruit maturation.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mrtexas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
    • USA, Sugarland,TX 9B
    • View Profile
    • MrTexasCitrus
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2017, 11:44:10 PM »
Yuzu is not true from seed. It has been used to make many hybrids.

That's not what "true to seed" means.

When we say true to seed, we're not talking about if it gets pollenized by another citrus variety.


Most citrus will not hybridize even if pollinated with another variety. True to seed mean polyembrionic.

http://mrtexascitrus.weebly.com/citrusseedlings.html
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 11:46:53 PM by mrtexas »

Mike T

  • Zone 12a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6910
  • Cairns,Nth Qld, Australia
    • Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2017, 04:07:58 PM »
The apple analogy is an interesting one and seedling trials of hundred of crossed apple types in western Australia led to the development of Pink Lady. Blood limes are a tango x fingelime and I think fingerlimes could be crossed with other citrus far more to produce all manner of interesting fruit.

Millet

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2273
    • Colorado
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2017, 06:53:43 PM »
Phil, your link http://mrtexascitrus.weebly.com/citrusseedlings.html shows that Kumquats are not true from seed.   All kumquats EXCEPT Nagami do come true from seed, Nagami does not.   However, as I'm sure you already know, kumquats grown on their own roots do not fare all that well.  Normally Kumquats are grafted onto Flying Dragon.

mrtexas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
    • USA, Sugarland,TX 9B
    • View Profile
    • MrTexasCitrus
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2017, 07:21:50 PM »
Hadn't looked at that page in a while, corrected it. BTW the hong kong kumquats
I have been trying to grow out for rootstock aren't doing too well on their own roots.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 07:24:11 PM by mrtexas »

Ilya11

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2017, 03:04:42 AM »
My Kucle is not true from seeds.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

shaneatwell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
    • California, San Diego, sunset 23
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2017, 11:20:35 AM »
Love the OP. Can you work blood orange in?
Shane

Millet

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2273
    • Colorado
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2017, 01:17:06 PM »
The kumquat parent used in the kucle hybrid is the Nagami kumquat.  Both parents of the Kucle (Nagami and Clementine) do not produce true from seed.

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2017, 01:57:44 AM »
Robinson tangerine is a hybrid between tangerine and grapefruit (made by Department of Agricultural researchers in Orlando, 1942).
So what does that make it? Is it a tangerine just because it looks more like a tangerine?

Millet

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2273
    • Colorado
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2017, 09:30:21 PM »
It is a tangelo (C. reticulata C. paradisi).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 09:35:00 PM by Millet »

SoCal2warm

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2017, 12:05:36 AM »
There's a whole range of citrus with different amounts of pomelo (C. maxima) and mandarin (C. reticula) parentage. Most of the various citrus types can be grouped along a spectrum between the two.

Pomelo ("Chinese Grapefruit" is probably all or mostly pomelo)
Pomelo-Grapefruit hybrids (such as Oroblanco, Melogold, Pomelit)
Grapefruit
Cocktail Grapefruit & certain Japanese citrus like Kinkoji and Amanatsu
Tangelolo ("Wekiwa")
Tangelo
Orange
Tangor
dekopon and some sharp-flavored tangerines
Mandarin Orange


As you can see, all these lie somewhere on a spectrum between pomelo and mandarin.
Just two original species led to all these subcategories.

Sylvain

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44
    • Bergerac, France
    • View Profile
    • Looking for Wakonai.
Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2017, 03:13:42 AM »

 

Copyright © Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers