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Author Topic: whole new subcategories of citrus  (Read 1249 times)

Millet

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2017, 05:20:25 AM »
Sylvain, an amazing chart, I'll have to study the chart before I have some question.  Thanks for the post. 

Sylvain

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2017, 01:08:38 PM »
Thanks to Ilya11 who brought it to the french forum.

Mike T

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2017, 05:31:25 AM »
Great charts and it all makes sense and I still think micrantha is just a form of hystrix but didn't know it is a progenitor of modern limes.I also expected maxima to feature more prominently and medica to feature less.

SoCal2warm

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2017, 06:15:16 AM »
I still think micrantha is just a form of hystrix but didn't know it is a progenitor of modern limes. I also expected maxima to feature more prominently and medica to feature less.
I like the way you think, but I don't think that's true here. I seem to remember reading that kaffir lime was a hybrid of some other type of papeda (I can't remember what it is right now) from which it derived its cold-hardiness. (It was some weird one, not as cold-hardy as Ichang papeda, but maybe I'm not remembering any of this right)
I think kaffir limes are descended from a different papeda ancestor than common limes. Isn't kaffir lime about as cold-hardy as the more cold-hardy oranges? While common limes are the most sensitive out of all the different citrus groups to cold, slightly more sensitive than common lemons.

Edit: I think it may have been C. latipes, also known as Khasi papeda.

But yes, it's well known that limes are descended from C. micrantha. Another little uncommon fact, C. micrantha is incredibly high in furanocoumarin levels, over four times higher than bergamot! Probably not a good idea to put the essential oil on your skin.

So lemon's primary ancestor is citron, for lime it is C. micrantha, and for kaffir lime it is Khasi papeda (assuming I'm remembering right)

I do suspect citron, C, micrantha, khasi papeda (and Ichang papeda too) are closer related to each other than they are to C. reticula or C. maxima, but that's just judging by morphological appearances.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 07:07:59 AM by SoCal2warm »

Millet

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2017, 11:38:08 AM »
Looking at the chart the caledonia lime and the Kaghzi lime look to exactly the same fruit, same for some of the lemons. yet their different.

Ilya11

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2017, 04:30:04 AM »
I still think micrantha is just a form of hystrix but didn't know it is a progenitor of modern limes. I also expected maxima to feature more prominently and medica to feature less.
I like the way you think, but I don't think that's true here. I seem to remember reading that kaffir lime was a hybrid of some other type of papeda (I can't remember what it is right now) from which it derived its cold-hardiness. (It was some weird one, not as cold-hardy as Ichang papeda, but maybe I'm not remembering any of this right)
I think kaffir limes are descended from a different papeda ancestor than common limes. Isn't kaffir lime about as cold-hardy as the more cold-hardy oranges? While common limes are the most sensitive out of all the different citrus groups to cold, slightly more sensitive than common lemons.

Edit: I think it may have been C. latipes, also known as Khasi papeda.

But yes, it's well known that limes are descended from C. micrantha. Another little uncommon fact, C. micrantha is incredibly high in furanocoumarin levels, over four times higher than bergamot! Probably not a good idea to put the essential oil on your skin.

So lemon's primary ancestor is citron, for lime it is C. micrantha, and for kaffir lime it is Khasi papeda (assuming I'm remembering right)

I do suspect citron, C, micrantha, khasi papeda (and Ichang papeda too) are closer related to each other than they are to C. reticula or C. maxima, but that's just judging by morphological appearances.
This text is full of factual errors and Turing criteria is not met. :o
Best regards,
                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2017, 01:18:12 PM »
Khasi papeda looks incredibly similar to kaffir lime. I don't think kaffir lime is a pure species though, probably a hybrid between sour mandarin and papeda, or something along those lines. Or quite possibly a hybrid between khasi papeda and citron.
Lemon is a hybrid between citron and sour orange (bitter orange). Meyer lemon is hybrid between citron and mandarin, or something very close to mandarin, much closer to mandarin than orange. Ponderosa lemon I have read several places is supposedly a hybrid between lemon and citron, but I think it more likely it originated from a lemon pollinated from grapefruit or shaddock.
I'm not sure what regular limes are though. Supposedly a hybrid between C. micrantha and citron. There are different types of limes so some might have additional ancestry.

There's a lot of information here and I'm typing this off very quick, so some of the information might not be 100 percent completely literally accurate.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 01:28:47 PM by SoCal2warm »

Millet

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2017, 03:12:14 PM »
It has been traditionally thought that a Meyer lemon is a hybrid of a lemon and an orange, or possibly a even a mandarin.

mikkel

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2017, 04:11:24 PM »
@SoCal2warm
amazing how you doubt everything others found out in more elaborated studies than just looking on pictures. I am not saying all is true what is consensus today, but where do you get all you knowledge from? Do you have sources did you research or is it just as you wrote kind of " I think..."
Please let us know.

Mike T

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2017, 05:48:20 PM »
I agree on meyer that it seems to be quite different from most lemons and the flowers are almost grapefruit like.I would have expected more reticulate and maxima in its genetics. Lemonades are very similar to meyer and I would have thought their parentage may be similar.

SoCal2warm

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2017, 07:00:54 PM »
Those DNA studies are pretty good at telling how much C. maxima relative to C. reticula a citrus has in its ancestry, but when it comes to differentiating between citron and different papedas, the standard DNA tests are not that good. Apparently the many of the markers being looked at in the analysis are not unique to just one of these more obscure citrus species, so when you see those broadbased diagrams across numerous citrus varieties, you have to take them with a grain of salt. (Unless someone ran a DNA analysis specially focusing on one of these papedas and their immediate hybrids)
You can tell this because many times those analysis results will be intuitively wrong in specific instances. What might really be a yuzu ancestor will show up as directly Ichang papeda. What might really be a papeda ancestor might show up in the analysis as likely citron. It's not the tests themself that are flawed, but rather the poor selection of genetic markers to be able to distinguish some of the less common citrus species.

Ilya11

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2017, 08:21:52 AM »
Again, completely wrong and misleading statement.
Clementine, mandarin, pummelo, sweet-orange and sour-orange genomes  were extensively  sequenced, there is no room for the slightest traces of papeda ancestry.
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SoCal2warm

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2017, 01:14:06 PM »
I did not say any of those fruits you just listed have papeda ancestry.

The problem is, while the common citrus have been extensively sequenced, the more obscure ones have not. This can result in misleading correlations in the breakdown. It's more likely to show a citrus that has more recorded markers (say citron for example) than another uncommon citrus (say papeda) with only a few recorded markers. You can't really have a good idea whether a hybrid has some type of papeda ancestry unless you have looked closely at the DNA of that papeda and are considering a lot of markers from that species in the comparison.

Now of course most of the common citrus varieties don't have any papeda ancestry, if that's what you thought was misleading. I'm sure those tests are very accurate if you look at the citrus being sold in a supermarket, or unusual traditional cultivars in Europe, but if you're analyzing unusual citrus in Asia it can be a different story.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 01:34:20 PM by SoCal2warm »

Ilya11

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Re: whole new subcategories of citrus
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2017, 05:35:04 PM »
C.medica that you mentioned has nothing to do with papedas either in morphology or in the sequence of expressed cDNA tags that were determined for them.
Why  are you creating your own mythical universe? It looks  like a AI bot activity.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

 

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