Shocking! Watch for yourself

[Tropicdude]

On vitamin B12, vegans need to supplement. But even omnivores should get a test to see if they are deficient. As B12 originates from bacteria in the soil, it must be ingested by animals who are grass fed and with the proliferation of factory farms livestock are not ingesting B12 and it is not in the resulting meat and dairy products.  B12 deficiency is a very serious matter and can cause irreversible nerve damage.  If growing your own vegetables in rich organic soil it's likely that vegans in the past ingested diet with vegetables getting B12. Eating store bought triple washed greens it won't happen.

I agree,  most Adult vegans today,  did not start their lives as vegans,   mothers milk, and formula,  made from dairy,  good old Gerber.    B12 is essential in methylation process,  which affects Folic acid.   necessary for new nerves.   and brain development.   

https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12

Most B12 supplements are synthetic,  ( Cyanocobalamin )  its cheap,  and not as efficiently processed in the human body,  and for those with mutations in their genes,  this synthetic form, can be harmful.    best type is Methylcobalamin,  so if anyone supplements with B12 , I highly recommend, that natural version of it.


B12 is not stored in the body,  like most B vitamins its water based, and you piss out what is not used,  for optimal health young children, infants should NOT be deficient in this necessary nutrient,  this can have long term negative effects later in life.   for those interested in the science behind what methylation  does, in the body.  might be boring to some, but I love science.   
http://youtu.be/ncrdInhbtOE

[fruitlovers]

On vitamin B12, vegans need to supplement. But even omnivores should get a test to see if they are deficient. As B12 originates from bacteria in the soil, it must be ingested by animals who are grass fed and with the proliferation of factory farms livestock are not ingesting B12 and it is not in the resulting meat and dairy products.  B12 deficiency is a very serious matter and can cause irreversible nerve damage.  If growing your own vegetables in rich organic soil it's likely that vegans in the past ingested diet with vegetables getting B12. Eating store bought triple washed greens it won't happen.

I agree,  most Adult vegans today,  did not start their lives as vegans,   mothers milk, and formula,  made from dairy,  good old Gerber.    B12 is essential in methylation process,  which affects Folic acid.   necessary for new nerves.   and brain development.   

https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12

Most B12 supplements are synthetic,  ( Cyanocobalamin )  its cheap,  and not as efficiently processed in the human body,  and for those with mutations in their genes,  this synthetic form, can be harmful.    best type is Methylcobalamin,  so if anyone supplements with B12 , I highly recommend, that natural version of it.


B12 is not stored in the body,  like most B vitamins its water based, and you piss out what is not used,  for optimal health young children, infants should NOT be deficient in this necessary nutrient,  this can have long term negative effects later in life.   for those interested in the science behind what methylation  does, in the body.  might be boring to some, but I love science.   
http://youtu.be/ncrdInhbtOE

Yes B12 is water soluble, and yes it is stored in the body for years:

"Vitamin B12 is a water-soluble vitamin. Water-soluble vitamins dissolve in water. After the body uses these vitamins, leftover amounts leave the body through the urine.

The body can store vitamin B12 for years in the liver."

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002403.htm

[Mike T]

It is a whole lot more besides B12 that are important nutrients for people that are not present in plants in the quality or quantity needed for optimal health. Luckily being an omnivore we are quite plastic in what we can eat and vegans or vegetarians are often careful about their diets and often compensate for omega 3,animal iron, sulphur, vitamin D3 and specific amino acids to the greatest extent possible.
I think you have to be very precise with a question on this topic or you go round in circles. Plant products can be produced more efficiently in a smaller area but impacts to that area are pretty high. Wild caught fish, rangeland meat and wild collected plant products can have minimal environmental impacts or costs.

[fruitlovers]

There have been vegetarian cultures for millenia. And yes i think they are healthy.  To the point where they are now helping to overpopulate the planet! Yes vegans are a new breed, but they can also be very healthy in today's world given the choices that abound. Usually people that choose these specific diets think carefully about what they are eating as they are concerned about what they eat. Can the same be said for the general populace? Most people just eat based on whatever pleases them at that instant, whatever is most convenient, whatever is cheapest, or what presents itself to their mouth at the moment. Then the rationalizations take over to try to prove to themselves that doing otherwise would be impossible for their health. Whatever. Hard to argue against when there are billions of counterexamples proving otherwise. To each his own. Most of us won't make radical diet change unless a dire health problem sets in. Diets are so very much ingrained into our culture and what we ate growing up.

[stuartdaly88]

My powerlifting coach is vegan and quite muscular I would be suprised if he was even 5% body fat!
He is incredibly strong especially for his weight but I always cant help wondering if he would be just a bit stronger if he was omnivourous or even just vegitarian?

For myself the protein requirments to keep my Powerlifting total rising are large (2g per kg or for me close to 220g per day) and to get that kind of protein without meat and animal products and staying under a certain total calorie level would be out of my budget ha ha.

There are also things in meat like creatine(no plant source) that undeniably improve strength performance and are backed by studies.

At the end of the day its a personal choice, I just dont want my choice taken away as my body responds very well to meat and whey and my strength  suffers when I dont eat it suffers.

I also have relatives that made it well past 90 on standard meat inclusive diets, though I do think we probably eat too much meat as a society and should try keep consumption at a healthy level.

[Mike T]

I think Oscar makes a good point that most people make choices about what to eat on the spur of the moment and include some poor foods. Vegans often take their diets much more seriously and are likely to more than compensate for missing nutrients by making fewer bad choices about what to eat. That is why I think a vegan diet with eggs, seafood, poultry and red meat would be fantastic for your health. I know it doesn't make sense.

[PurpleAlligator]

I think Oscar makes a good point that most people make choices about what to eat on the spur of the moment and include some poor foods. Vegans often take their diets much more seriously and are likely to more than compensate for missing nutrients by making fewer bad choices about what to eat. That is why I think a vegan diet with eggs, seafood, poultry and red meat would be fantastic for your health. I know it doesn't make sense.

I agree it doesn't make sense.  You don't have a vegan diet by consuming animal products.

Here is everything a layman needs to know about B12.

http://health101.org/art_B12_Bottom_Line.htm

And about Vitamin D

http://health101.org/art_cancer_vitamin_D.htm

On Smallpox and infectious disease.  If vaccines are so safe and good for you, then why is anyone associated with producing and administering a vaccine immune from lawsuits and prosecution?  A healthy immune system and clean lymphatic system is your best defense against infectious disease. 

http://health101.org/art_smallpox_part1.htm
http://health101.org/art_smallpox02.htm

On protein.  There is no reason for a vegan to be lacking in any essential amino acids.  They are adequately provided by plant based foods.  And I've met several vegan bodybuilders who are not lacking for protein. 

http://veganhealth.org/articles/protein

On omega 3 - think nuts and seeds (flax, hemp, chia).  Nuts and seeds are also good sources of amino acids.

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/omega3

Bottom line, I choose to be vegan for my health, and animal welfare  and rights has been a benefit that I've come to appreciate and support since becoming vegan.  Research indicates that with a proper vegan diet I will not lack for any nutrients in a plant based diet.  My personal belief is that a plant based diet based on primarily raw fruit and vegetables will give my body the best chance for optimal health.

I encourage everyone to do what makes them happy and consume the diet that works best for them.  I'm not trying to preach or convert anyone to a plant based diet. 

[Clay]

...
Photosynthesis doesn't generate Protein or Amino Acids. It generates carbohydrates, fuel. Amino acids are generated via a different mechanism (I think the same one that requires Nitrogen fertilization for plants).
...

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I know that it has been many years since I studied biology. I was under the impression that plants used the energy from the sun to directly synthesize carbohydrates, and indirectly to synthesize everything else (DNA, proteins, cellular tissues, etc.) that they need. Are you suggesting that they synthesize amino acids from some other process, using some other energy source? I was not aware of this.

Thanks for sharing. I shall research this further.

Happy fruiting,

Clay

[fyliu]

I think what Oscar is saying is: you're healthy because you take care to consciously make eating choices, not necessarily because you're avoiding meat.

You took the time to figure out what you needed to eat to get all the necessary nutrients so you have them in your diet.

One thing I'd like to point out: it takes more energy to digest plant matter than animal matter. Celery is often cited as negative calorie food because of this. So an all plant diet can put a person into a state of near starvation, energy wise. This type of fasting along with sugars from fruits will enhance alertness in people. Sort of an evolutionary hint that you need to be looking for more food soon. This is my main problem with the "raw diet". They are making their bodies work harder, but that works for now because they're all young. Don't make us old people digest raw almonds and rice.

On the other hand, it's certainly unhealthy if a person goes vegan and doesn't eat the variety of foods that the vegans on this board eat.

I'd like to add to the people giving examples that vegans can be strong and fit. Many animals that are vegan are also strong, like elephants, rhinos, giraffes, cows, horses, etc. I'd say eating plants tends to make for bigger animals, or at least mammals. They're built to fully digest plants while humans aren't, so we don't get that big eating vegan.

[Caesar]

...
Photosynthesis doesn't generate Protein or Amino Acids. It generates carbohydrates, fuel. Amino acids are generated via a different mechanism (I think the same one that requires Nitrogen fertilization for plants).
...

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I know that it has been many years since I studied biology. I was under the impression that plants used the energy from the sun to directly synthesize carbohydrates, and indirectly to synthesize everything else (DNA, proteins, cellular tissues, etc.) that they need. Are you suggesting that they synthesize amino acids from some other process, using some other energy source? I was not aware of this.

Thanks for sharing. I shall research this further.

Happy fruiting,

Clay

My mistake, I meant to say that amino acids aren't formed by the actual process/mechanism of photosynthesis. But you're right, the energy for their own process is derived from photosynthesis. Good catch. 

Since amino acids are nitrogen-containing molecules, they're tied to the plant's uptake of nitrogen. It's why N-fixers tend to be good protein producers. But yeah, the energy used in the reaction is photosynthesis-based.

[Tang Tonic]

I grew up drinking milk, eating meat, pretty much normal American diet.  But my mom was a good cook, so all meals were made from scratch and she didn;t buy junk food for snacks.

 For the past 10 years I've lived in the Caribbean.  A place with a lot of Vegans and Vegetarians, particularly the Rastafarians.  The isolation of where I live requiring meat products to be shipped in and my infatuation with Rasta has made me look at my diet very closely.  High grocery prices I will admit have also played a role.

Over the past 10 years I have become healthier and much more selective of what I eat.  I've always been big into spearfishing and fishing so for much of the past 10 years at least half my protein has been seafood based and harvested myself.

About this time last year,  a friend told me about a book called "Clean" by Alejandro Junger.  I won't go into to it too much but it was very inspirational and I went through the 21 day cleanse following his recommendations.  He does advocate eating grass fed organic meat during the process which I did.  After doing the 21 day cleanse, I felt so good I didn't want to go back to how I was eating before.  Mind you, I went into it already eating healthy so many of the side effects I read about and was expecting, I did not experience.  But I did experience wonderful positive effects from eliminating the acid and mucous forming foods.

That cleanse sharpened my microscope on what I eat.  At the start of 2017, I decided I wanted to try cutting out all meat except seafood.  I haven't been 100% true to this, but have done my best and only eaten meat in situations where there were no other options or I just wanted to have a taste.  My main reason for wanting to try this is actually more ethical and this is the main point of my post.

Over the years, all the fish I have speared has given me somewhat of a guilty conscious.  I can remember my first Mahi and the beautiful colors fading away as the life from the fish faded away.  I can remember the giant Cubera Snapper that pulled off the spear before I could get him and how heart wrenching that was.  I have felt pangs of remorse for every life I have taken.  I don't feel that when I eat store bought fish or order seafood in a restaurant.  I never felt that when I threw a nice steak on the grill.  I think there is something wrong with that disconnection.

So my thing is, if I can't kill it myself or would be unwilling to kill it myself, I prefer not to eat it.  As fruit lovers, everyone here should be able to understand this.  That mango you picked off your own tree tastes way better than anything you could buy in the store and probably even better than a mango from your neighbor's tree. 

People are so far removed from the food they eat.  It goes into their mouths and straight to the digestive system without a second thought.  If it tasted good, one might have a glancing thought about that.  But not about where it came from, how many hands or machines touched it, how many chemicals fertilizers or hormones were added to it. 

I have considered hunting. We have deer here and many of my old Florida buddies hunt so I could take a trip up and load up a cooler and bring it back down with me.  I know that I will feel that same pang of guilt when I kill my first deer though.  Just like that time I shot a bird with a pellet gun when I was about 12.  I was crushed.  So for now, I'll stick to fish. 

[fyliu]

Thank you Tang Tonic, for sharing your experience. This is the kind of things I like to read about eating healthy. You were not eating badly to begin with, but you eventually tried different things that made your situation better step by step as your awareness grew.

Stories where people go from eating junk to eating all vegan is missing many steps, and there's no telling which change made a significant improvement and which are just borderline improvements.

[simon_grow]

Tang Tonic, thank you for your post! At one point, I was trying to live off my garden which included raising quail for eggs and meat and using the quail poop as fertilizer. I did have to depend a lot on outside resources but I gained a lot of respect when I had to butcher my own quail.

Let's also not forget that excercise is a big part of staying healthy. By spearfishing, you are getting a nice work out and probably getting more in tuned with own body by controlling your breaths. I do some weight lifting, spearfishing, fishing, running and gardening to stay in shape.

Simon

[fruitlovers]

Most guidelines suggest that general population needs to eat more fruits and vegetables and less meat and dairy. I wonder if there is a correlation between countries that have very low fruit consumption and overall health? My guess would be that countries that consume very little amounts of fruits would have poorer health than those that consume more fruits? Americans i think consume very small amount of fruits in general, compared to most latin americans and asians. You can see that most of the fruit specialty stores are either asian or latin american stores. When you satisfy your sweet cravings with candy, ice cream, cakes, or other forms of processed sugars that is not as healthy as eating sweet fruits.

[echinopora]

Here you go Oscar
http://annals.org/aim/article/714567/effect-fruit-vegetable-intake-risk-coronary-heart-disease
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/105/6/1462.long

The question is can you find a study that fruits, nuts and vegetables significantly decreased quality or quantity of life?

[Future]

Purslane won't stop growing in the seams between bricks in my driveway.  It is another omega 3 source, the richest non-seed one for plants.

There are too many myths about what vegans can't get.  I have been vegan 20 years and my bloodwork verifies the approach. B12, D3, free and total testosterone, FSH, T3 and T4 hormones, prolactin, insulin, blood sugar, c reactive proven, tumor necrosis alpha, interluekine 6...everything is in the right range to live to 125.  Evidence beats opinions every time.

Anyone here under 44 years old is invited to my 125th....

I think Oscar makes a good point that most people make choices about what to eat on the spur of the moment and include some poor foods. Vegans often take their diets much more seriously and are likely to more than compensate for missing nutrients by making fewer bad choices about what to eat. That is why I think a vegan diet with eggs, seafood, poultry and red meat would be fantastic for your health. I know it doesn't make sense.

I agree it doesn't make sense.  You don't have a vegan diet by consuming animal products.

Here is everything a layman needs to know about B12.

http://health101.org/art_B12_Bottom_Line.htm

And about Vitamin D

http://health101.org/art_cancer_vitamin_D.htm

On Smallpox and infectious disease.  If vaccines are so safe and good for you, then why is anyone associated with producing and administering a vaccine immune from lawsuits and prosecution?  A healthy immune system and clean lymphatic system is your best defense against infectious disease. 

http://health101.org/art_smallpox_part1.htm
http://health101.org/art_smallpox02.htm

On protein.  There is no reason for a vegan to be lacking in any essential amino acids.  They are adequately provided by plant based foods.  And I've met several vegan bodybuilders who are not lacking for protein. 

http://veganhealth.org/articles/protein

On omega 3 - think nuts and seeds (flax, hemp, chia).  Nuts and seeds are also good sources of amino acids.

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/omega3

Bottom line, I choose to be vegan for my health, and animal welfare  and rights has been a benefit that I've come to appreciate and support since becoming vegan.  Research indicates that with a proper vegan diet I will not lack for any nutrients in a plant based diet.  My personal belief is that a plant based diet based on primarily raw fruit and vegetables will give my body the best chance for optimal health.

I encourage everyone to do what makes them happy and consume the diet that works best for them.  I'm not trying to preach or convert anyone to a plant based diet.

[Future]

I love bacon, Spam, pepperoni and most types of processed meats and I'll probably continue eating them but in moderation.
Make them an occasional treat, okay Simon?  Like once or twice a week--one item out of that group.  The average person should be able to handle that.  (Just looking out for your health if that's okay!)

Good looking out Johnb51, will do. I haven't purchased any bacon since watching the movie but i did have a supreme pizza with sausage and bacon but there wasn't much. My normal diet typically consists of lots of meat, some fruit and very little veggies.

As many of you are aware, I had severe health issues last year and that was when I started changing my diet and increasing my aerobic excercise. I started eating a lot more fruit and veggies combined with jogging 2-3 times a week and I feel back to normal now. Switching from a mostly meat diet like I used to have was extremely difficult but juicing( wheatgrass and other veggies) helped a lot. I know I need the fiber I'm getting rid of by juicing but at least I'm taking baby steps.

One thing kinda gross but true is that when you start eating a lot more veggies, your farts don't stink anymore, Lucky for all my friends, lol!

Simon

Simon

I was not aware you had health challenges and congratulate you on making the changes you have.  Health is so easily taken for granted yet without it, everything else falls apart.  Too few see how small short term actions have big long term impacts - good or bad.  Kudos to you for taking the helm over your health.

[fyliu]

I wonder if there is a correlation between countries that have very low fruit consumption and overall health? My guess would be that countries that consume very little amounts of fruits would have poorer health than those that consume more fruits?

Here you go Oscar
http://annals.org/aim/article/714567/effect-fruit-vegetable-intake-risk-coronary-heart-disease
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/105/6/1462.long

The question is can you find a study that fruits, nuts and vegetables significantly decreased quality or quantity of life?

I read the overview of the studies and failed to find anything that satisfies Oscar's question.

I'm not sure why you added the question that challenges Oscar to find something he never claimed to be true. Maybe you misread what he wrote? Are you responding to something he wrote a lot earlier or in another thread? I just can't find where it's coming from.

I think as fruit growers here we're all in agreement that it's good for health.

[Tropicdude]

Just because the liver has stores of B12,  does not mean it just releases this in the blood stream when when you are not consuming B12.

The liver stores this because it works it into the mitochondria of cell in the making of ATP from fats.  ( Krebs Cycle ) I know are organs store B12,  our muscles have it also,  after all that is why meat has vitamin B12.    some of this tied up B12 might be released  when cells die.   Blood serum half life is about 50 minutes,  99% is excreted within 2 days.

but my main point was that every individual is different and has different needs,  I cannot say that one diet or the other will be best, for everyone.   some people might do much better on a vegan diet. that does not mean everyone will.

[fruitlovers]

Just because the liver has stores of B12,  does not mean it just releases this in the blood stream when when you are not consuming B12.

The liver stores this because it works it into the mitochondria of cell in the making of ATP from fats.  ( Krebs Cycle ) I know are organs store B12,  our muscles have it also,  after all that is why meat has vitamin B12.    some of this tied up B12 might be released  when cells die.   Blood serum half life is about 50 minutes,  99% is excreted within 2 days.

but my main point was that every individual is different and has different needs,  I cannot say that one diet or the other will be best, for everyone.   some people might do much better on a vegan diet. that does not mean everyone will.

Look at your previous statement, you said B12 is not stored in the body. Now you say it is stored in the body but does not mean that it is used. Then why does the body store it if it doesn't use it?

[DurianLover]

Purslane won't stop growing in the seams between bricks in my driveway.  It is another omega 3 source, the richest non-seed one for plants.

There are too many myths about what vegans can't get.  I have been vegan 20 years and my bloodwork verifies the approach. B12, D3, free and total testosterone, FSH, T3 and T4 hormones, prolactin, insulin, blood sugar, c reactive proven, tumor necrosis alpha, interluekine 6...everything is in the right range to live to 125.  Evidence beats opinions every time.

Anyone here under 44 years old is invited to my 125th....

Invitation accepted
I do not really care to know details of your diet, but I'm wondering if any other not nutritional "hacks" are utilized for such readings?

[fruitlovers]

Purslane won't stop growing in the seams between bricks in my driveway.  It is another omega 3 source, the richest non-seed one for plants.

There are too many myths about what vegans can't get.  I have been vegan 20 years and my bloodwork verifies the approach. B12, D3, free and total testosterone, FSH, T3 and T4 hormones, prolactin, insulin, blood sugar, c reactive proven, tumor necrosis alpha, interluekine 6...everything is in the right range to live to 125.  Evidence beats opinions every time.

Anyone here under 44 years old is invited to my 125th....

I think Oscar makes a good point that most people make choices about what to eat on the spur of the moment and include some poor foods. Vegans often take their diets much more seriously and are likely to more than compensate for missing nutrients by making fewer bad choices about what to eat. That is why I think a vegan diet with eggs, seafood, poultry and red meat would be fantastic for your health. I know it doesn't make sense.

I agree it doesn't make sense.  You don't have a vegan diet by consuming animal products.

Here is everything a layman needs to know about B12.

http://health101.org/art_B12_Bottom_Line.htm

And about Vitamin D

http://health101.org/art_cancer_vitamin_D.htm

On Smallpox and infectious disease.  If vaccines are so safe and good for you, then why is anyone associated with producing and administering a vaccine immune from lawsuits and prosecution?  A healthy immune system and clean lymphatic system is your best defense against infectious disease. 

http://health101.org/art_smallpox_part1.htm
http://health101.org/art_smallpox02.htm

On protein.  There is no reason for a vegan to be lacking in any essential amino acids.  They are adequately provided by plant based foods.  And I've met several vegan bodybuilders who are not lacking for protein. 

http://veganhealth.org/articles/protein

On omega 3 - think nuts and seeds (flax, hemp, chia).  Nuts and seeds are also good sources of amino acids.

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/omega3

Bottom line, I choose to be vegan for my health, and animal welfare  and rights has been a benefit that I've come to appreciate and support since becoming vegan.  Research indicates that with a proper vegan diet I will not lack for any nutrients in a plant based diet.  My personal belief is that a plant based diet based on primarily raw fruit and vegetables will give my body the best chance for optimal health.

I encourage everyone to do what makes them happy and consume the diet that works best for them.  I'm not trying to preach or convert anyone to a plant based diet.

I'm sure you are more likely to make it to 125 than most on this group.
BTW, it's not just what you eat, but also your attitude about food (and everything else in life).
What good is it to be vagan if you are stressed out about food all the time? I'm sure stress will take it's toll also, not just bad diet. It's quite possible a layed back meat eater could live longer than a very stressed out vegan. Diet is important, but it's not the only thing that's important.

[fruitlovers]

Yes B12 is stored in the body. Yes the body does use the stored B12 when necessary.  The body needs very small amounts, in the micrograms, and stores it for several years for use when needed.

"Unlike most other vitamins, B12 is stored in substantial amounts, mainly in the liver, until it is needed by the body. If a person stops consuming the vitamin, the body’s stores of this vitamin usually take about 3 to 5 years to exhaust."

http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/disorders-of-nutrition/vitamins/vitamin-b-12

[echinopora]

Not arguing anything. Whether you take it to the extreme of veganism or not, there is a large body of evidence showing that increases in fruit, vegetable and nut consumption correlate with decreases in all cause mortality. You are right, the study is not a cross population prospective or retrospective cohort analysis as Oscar requested, but those types of studies are given a pretty low clinical evidence level by the major clinical evidence hierarchies. There are too many uncontrolled cultural differences that can introduce bias in cross country comparisons. The first paper posted uses data from the nurses health study/ health professionals study. It is one of the best constructed prospective cohort trials ever done. The number of participants is very high, data is collected from participants for the entire time they are in the study (so it can capture changes in diet over time) and it has been running for decades. Because of the in depth followup from periodic questionnaires it can capture not only absolute risk and mortality, but also age of onset and severity of disease. Many studies use only a single starting point (say a 5 day food record) and a single end point (say cardiac death). So you are basically stuck reporting the incidence of disease, when the rate and severity are most useful especially if you are trying to figure out disability adjusted life years which are more relevant than years of life lost.

The second study is a larger more recent systematic review of prospective cohort studies. I couldn't find any systematic reviews of randomized control trials available for diet studies, so that study has the highest clinical evidence level of any I could find on pubmed/medline/embase/cochrane review. So again not a cross country analysis but it it is a very high level of evidence.

The question at the end was to highlight the fact that after 3 pages of discussion there has not been a good source of evidence presented that strongly supports some of the other diets that have been studied (atkins, keto, paleo, assorted low carb). If you want to have an interesting read on the in depth modelling of various calorie density and macronutrient ratios and thier effect on ageing,  mortality,  reproductive health and body composition check out the geometric framework mapping studies coming out of the university of sydney.

Finland and Inuit populations have low fruit/veg intake and poorer health outcomes, but there are so many other factors at play. Hazda tribesmen have been used as an example of a population that has very low plant intake but good cardiac outcomes, but in that study the oldest tribesman recorded was 72. So you would have to argue whether ir not you can compare heart disease between the hazda and western nations when they don't even live to be the age where most westerners would start to develop heart disease.

Expert opinion is relegated to the lowest level of clinical evidence, and you'd probably need to get a shovel and start digging to get low enough to find the rung of the evidence ladder that a shockumentary sits at. Knew I shouldn't have stuck my toe in to test the waters on this one.

[fruitlovers]

About omega 3, inca peanut, aka Sacha inchi, (Plukenetia volubulis) is supposed to have high amounts. I also read that So shan fruit (Elaeagnus latifolia) is one of the few fruits to have omega 3.