Time to water?

[FruitFreak]

Good thread!  Frequent irrigation is helping my younger trees survive all of the stresses they have incurred in the last 6months.  Everything has been about survival.  I’m still trying to select the best water delivery method as the importance of targeted deep irrigation seems to be a factor.  Current delivery method is spot spitters/shrubblers (because we had them) for 1hr every other day.  Our soil is sand and we are still piling on the mulch.  A TWC rep recently dropped off a new dripper product that looks promising.  I must concur in our sandy soil that frequent long period waterings is the single most important thing I have done for my young trees (1-3yrs).  They are flushing and blooming like crazy, lots of healthy green leaves.  It makes total sense that supplemental irrigation (as needed) during dry periods would be optimal for tree health, yield and quality.

[Cookie Monster]

Actually, no. I  just started irrigating about 3, maybe 4 years ago. Previous to that, I completely turned off the irrigation for about 6 or 7 years. I started off with a zero-input policy (other than mulch -- over a thousand cubic yards of it, applied over the course of 12 years). I migrated to what I'm using now based on trial and error and the advice of area experts, literature, etc.

Shallow root systems are created when one irrigates improperly -- too shallow. The feeder roots of a tree are never going to be more than a few inches deep, but the goal is to keep them as deep as possible using less frequent but deeper watering schedules. There are larger (anchor) roots, which in deep soil situations will access the water table, but these, by and large, are not responsible for feeding the tree.

Obviously, if the soil is still moist, then don't water. I can usually tell what the soil is like by simply observing earthworm activity. Castings everywhere indicates good moisture; the absence of same usually indicates dryness (or some other condition that the worms are averse to). Your situation sounds a bit unique -- or certainly unlike what we experience here in South Florida.

From what I’ve read it sounds like you have developed a water dependent situation for your trees.  All your roots have moved above the soil line into the deep mulch you’ve added and kept wet.  This is exactly what I want to try and avoid.  My grass doesn’t turn brown, I have very lush pastures for my horses that I do not water.  I do not buy any hay.  It also appears you have some major fungal issues that I am trying to avoid by deep watering  some areas, not often.

I also never, ever water my very productive vegetable garden.  This is mostly grown during the dry season.  My Heliconias which need damp conditions get a good soaking about once every 3 weeks during times of no rain.   Shocking I know!

If it works for you that’s great.  I have my own way of doing things and it works for me at our Bio-dynamic Farm.

[Frog Valley Farm]

🗯

[Cookie Monster]

Not so. It's true that mulch can be manipulated via either sulfur to retard decay (mulch breaks down way too fast in this area -- leads to quick return of weeds) or leafy green tree trimmer mulch to accelerate it (on the first few applications, to build up soil bacteria). But, sadly, compost a) has nutrients in the wrong ratio for optimal fruiting and b) locks up some vital nutrients, notably copper and others -- both are well documented.

Will trees survive and produce in pure mulch? Certainly. Will they thrive and achieve max production and fruit quality? Nope. I learned that the hard way.

Deep soaking lasts a week max. We're flood zone X (high ground).

One could probably get away with just adding an abundance of your tree mulch if you added some sort of organic carbon nitrogen source (green weeds, grass clippings) periodically (when mulch is brown) for the bacteria to feed on and create humus.  Plus one or two deep soakings during a dry season if needed to keep soil moist.

[Frog Valley Farm]

🗯

[Cookie Monster]

For those interested in this topic: this guy gives a great overview on irrigating here in FL and how to know how much to use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAyu3KBLOY8

The senninger heads he recommends are fantastic. I calculated the amount of water needed based roughly on the principles discussed in the video.

But for a dooryard scenario, easy enough to just observe the soil, or follow a rule of thumb watering (once or twice per week -- which coincides with drought restriction watering req's for us).

[palmcity]

Watering right at the base of the mango tree will not make it disease prone in such dry conditions

Unfortunately, I do not have but a 2 inch diameter shallow well as a homeowner and it is limited on volume of water for house and occasional irrigation. Thus I usually use the old rubber/vinyl water hose and pull it from tree to tree if I believe moisture is needed. I also use 3 way connectors to connect more than one water hose to slowly drip/water multiple trees at once and over night.

Yesterday I replaced the pressure switch on the small well pump as the constant on/off cycles over time wore it out pretty quick this year. So, as you see I am limited and cannot spare water to feed the worms and complete a circle water pattern around the canopy on the ground. I just try to survive the dry spells and save the trees and a few mangos if a really bad dry year. No rain reached my trees with this past weeks cool front... Maybe.... this Sunday at least per forecasts...

So, I am considering placing my small available amount of water closer to the tree trunk as you (Zands) have done to help make it through these periods (previously I would place it a few feet away from the trunk).

Any other opinions and any others that water at the tree trunk like Zands does during the dry periods and any bad effects noted or not???

[Cookie Monster]

I don't think it would cause rot, unless you happen to be on muck or marl. However, the feeder roots do extend out quite a ways past the drip canopy on a mature tree. For a smaller, recently planted tree, the roots are more likely to be concentrated around the trunk (where they were previously confined to a container), and hence, watering by the trunk would be effective in this particular scenario.

Watering right at the base of the mango tree will not make it disease prone in such dry conditions

Unfortunately, I do not have but a 2 inch diameter shallow well as a homeowner and it is limited on volume of water for house and occasional irrigation. Thus I usually use the old rubber/vinyl water hose and pull it from tree to tree if I believe moisture is needed. I also use 3 way connectors to connect more than one water hose to slowly drip/water multiple trees at once and over night.

Yesterday I replaced the pressure switch on the small well pump as the constant on/off cycles over time wore it out pretty quick this year. So, as you see I am limited and cannot spare water to feed the worms and complete a circle water pattern around the canopy on the ground. I just try to survive the dry spells and save the trees and a few mangos if a really bad dry year. No rain reached my trees with this past weeks cool front... Maybe.... this Sunday at least per forecasts...

So, I am considering placing my small available amount of water closer to the tree trunk as you (Zands) have done to help make it through these periods (previously I would place it a few feet away from the trunk).

Any other opinions and any others that water at the tree trunk like Zands does during the dry periods and any bad effects noted or not???

[zands]

Any other opinions and any others that water at the tree trunk like Zands does during the dry periods and any bad effects noted or not???

Let me correct that to watering mango trees with my garden hose at ground level. As opposed to having your mango trees planted on a lawn like many members do. Then having your lawn sprinkler system sending sprinkler water into the mango leaves and panicles and developing fruit. Then you might promote rot and fungus.

So do not train your garden hose only where the tree trunk meets the ground. But within the four- five foot diameter around the tree trunk. None of my trees are mulched more than a five ft diameter so this is where my roots and root absorbing action is. So I think. My philosophy - The feeder roots are on their own and should go scrounging for their food and water, which I know that many do not advocate.

My own specific theory for my own specific situation is to want my roots going downward more than outward. I used to dig crazy deep planting holes, fill them 75-100% with Home Depot top soil to encourage downward root development. Then  mulch in a four-five ft diameter. I think my mulch is too deep and might be depriving roots of oxygen but I only get tree trimmer mulch once per year. Sometimes twice. So when I get it I have to put it somewhere. I do not have the luxury of doling it out gradually which I could do if I bought it gradually at Home Depot.

btw HD has all mulch on sale 6 bags for $10 until April 2nd. Bought some of that toxic red mulch for landscaping plants.
https://tinyurl.com/y9nnugxz

How about some mini version of ground penetrating radar to locate feeder roots? If I had this I would be watering them and fertilizing them.

[Mugenia]

So basically, I can't plant mango trees on my lawn and have sprinkler heads spraying on my trees daily. Am I correct? I have a long walkway in the back of my yard. I was planning to line it with mango trees. I guess I will be planting it with sapodillas then.

Any other opinions and any others that water at the tree trunk like Zands does during the dry periods and any bad effects noted or not???

Let me correct that to watering mango trees with my garden hose at ground level. As opposed to having your mango trees planted on a lawn like many members do. Then having your lawn sprinkler system sending sprinkler water into the mango leaves and panicles and developing fruit. Then you might promote rot and fungus.

So do not train your garden hose only where the tree trunk meets the ground. But within the four- five foot diameter around the tree trunk. None of my trees are mulched more than a five ft diameter so this is where my roots and root absorbing action is. So I think. My philosophy - The feeder roots are on their own and should go scrounging for their food and water, which I know that many do not advocate.

[Frog Valley Farm]

🗯

[pineislander]

I've recently been removing stumps of large trees on my property with an excavator which has been informative regarding tree root growth on the site. Though I didn't dig up any mango trees I will take a picture later today of the exposed root system of a large mango tree on a neighbor's property which was overturned by hurricane Irma. I'm also digging an irrigation pipe trench across the property and observe some variation at least in the top 18".

My soil type is the most common in Florida, Myakka. The soil is gray sand topsoil which lightens to white sand about 18" down, then becomes very dark brown in a highly compact layer.
As seen in the video Cookie Monster referenced, mine is very close to what is shown here:



The change in soil color matches the summertime high water table, and also matches the maximum depth of root development I've seen in the stumps removed and in the overturned mango tree. This zone of compacted soil representing the high water table also represents the zone of oxygen deprivation below which few roots can exist regardless of what you do. I can track water table by nearby ponds which vary according to the water level.

This reference "Tree roots: Facts and Myths" shows a lot about how tree roots grow.
http://arnoldia.arboretum.harvard.edu/pdf/articles/1989-49-4-tree-roots-facts-and-fallacies.pdf

I find it amazing how wide tree roots can go, how they graft together, how one root can feed one segment of canopy, how the microfauna infinitely extend the root zone, and all the other factors we don't even know about.

I know there are many other soil profiles around and yours may be quite different. Some have soil similar to mine. If you find a nearby excavation, find a tree root system exposed or even use a post hole digger you can get an idea of what you have. So, when to water really depends on your soil and the more you can learn & observe locally the better you will know what to do about it.

[Cookie Monster]

The calcium to potassium ratio of compost is typically around 3 to 1. However, this is not optimal, which leads to way too much potassium and too little calcium (nutrients which are both vying for the same exchange sites) -- a recipe for soft fruit (ie, internal breakown in mangoes) and low brix. Compost is also very high in phosphorous, leading to off the charts ratios between P and K. I invite the reader to research this topic; it's well documented.

Organic matter binds up micronutrients. This is why the recommended way to mitigate copper toxicity is to add organic matter. This is also a well documented subject.

I've discussed this topic on a few other threads.

I was going to let this slide but you are spreading false information.  In many areas all they have is mulch.  With the right mix of species and leafy weeds and leaves applied in just the right mix and add just the right  amount of water you can make the fungi and bacteria work together and achieve humus. This is what you want for trees.   Branch tips are a high source of minerals, I encourage weed growth. They might be a pain to pull or cut but are essential for this system to work correctly. This is very important, the more species you use the better.

Now in an area with polluted ground water like in overbuilt areas especially like Florida where every yard is using different multiple fungicides, herbicides, chemical fertilizers and pesticides, weed and feed, or you use too much of one product, like say too much wood mulch  or not enough water or do not keep adding a little bit of different mulch inputs all along, this natural way hits a wall and like Jeff said he could not achieve success and you wind up making compost more useful as a worm bin than for trees.  I prefer to make compost in a separate pile with a 60% nitrogen source and 40% carbon and with a thermometer in it.  This is why you need to start adding supplements as the fungi and bacteria are not working in unison and unable to form humus.  Fast decomposition is a good thing not bad, the faster the better.

I know you might think this is silly, but it is correct and the natural order of life of trees.

Like Zands, I too like my root system to mirror the above ground portion of the tree (if the soil conditions are conducive) and is how it should be in my deep sandy loam.

Spread your forest responsibly!

[palmcity]

Bought some of that toxic red mulch
https://tinyurl.com/y9nnugxz

How about some mini version of ground penetrating radar to locate feeder roots?

If I buy the "toxic red mulch", maybe I'll luck up and get some Iron oxide, & copper. My plants are scared with the cooler weather, extra watering, and forum talk and said they wanted to decrease their odds of getting bacterial & fungal infections & wanted some more copper for translocation between trees 

I'm gonna skip the ground radar & borrow the pot sniffing police dog to smell for those fungi tubules branching off the roots for exact watering locations. 

[Cookie Monster]

You could. As long as your soil drains well enough. Not 100% ideal, but it would work. But daily watering sounds a bit extreme. Here, they only let us water the lawn twice a week, which is sufficient.

If you need something that's water loving, plant jaboticaba. I have daily drip irrigation on those buggers.

So basically, I can't plant mango trees on my lawn and have sprinkler heads spraying on my trees daily. Am I correct? I have a long walkway in the back of my yard. I was planning to line it with mango trees. I guess I will be planting it with sapodillas then.

Any other opinions and any others that water at the tree trunk like Zands does during the dry periods and any bad effects noted or not???

Let me correct that to watering mango trees with my garden hose at ground level. As opposed to having your mango trees planted on a lawn like many members do. Then having your lawn sprinkler system sending sprinkler water into the mango leaves and panicles and developing fruit. Then you might promote rot and fungus.

So do not train your garden hose only where the tree trunk meets the ground. But within the four- five foot diameter around the tree trunk. None of my trees are mulched more than a five ft diameter so this is where my roots and root absorbing action is. So I think. My philosophy - The feeder roots are on their own and should go scrounging for their food and water, which I know that many do not advocate.

[pineislander]

Here are photos of a "Starch" mango tree over 20 years old which toppled in Hurricane Irma. You can see the root system doesn't go very deep, maybe a foot or so. It hasn't had irrigation for many years. I believe this is typical for my area.





This is the soil profile in the area. Six inches gray sandy topsoil, 1 ft of white sand, and at around 18" dark brown subsoil marking the summer normal water table.



This soil is in an open field, no mulch, hardly any grass. No rain for over a month. Dry as a bone. I am running a 2" irrigation main line for orchard expansion.

[Barnacle1982]

What is a scratch mango tree?

[Tropicalgrower89]

Here are photos of a "Starch" mango tree over 20 years old which toppled in Hurricane Irma. You can see the root system doesn't go very deep, maybe a foot or so. It hasn't had irrigation for many years. I believe this is typical for my area.





This is the soil profile in the area. Six inches gray sandy topsoil, 1 ft of white sand, and at around 18" dark brown subsoil marking the summer normal water table.



This soil is in an open field, no mulch, hardly any grass. No rain for over a month. Dry as a bone. I am running a 2" irrigation main line for orchard expansion.

Looks like my soil, but the white sand layer is larger in my case. I would say about 3 to 4 feet before I hit the brown sticky layer.

[pineislander]

What is a scratch mango tree?

Starch is a mango variety from Trinidad/Tobago.
https://www.simplytrinicooking.com/about-mangoes/

[Orkine]

I've recently been removing stumps of large trees on my property with an excavator which has been informative regarding tree root growth on the site. Though I didn't dig up any mango trees I will take a picture later today of the exposed root system of a large mango tree on a neighbor's property which was overturned by hurricane Irma. I'm also digging an irrigation pipe trench across the property and observe some variation at least in the top 18".

My soil type is the most common in Florida, Myakka. The soil is gray sand topsoil which lightens to white sand about 18" down, then becomes very dark brown in a highly compact layer.
As seen in the video Cookie Monster referenced, mine is very close to what is shown here:



The change in soil color matches the summertime high water table, and also matches the maximum depth of root development I've seen in the stumps removed and in the overturned mango tree. This zone of compacted soil representing the high water table also represents the zone of oxygen deprivation below which few roots can exist regardless of what you do. I can track water table by nearby ponds which vary according to the water level.

This reference "Tree roots: Facts and Myths" shows a lot about how tree roots grow.
http://arnoldia.arboretum.harvard.edu/pdf/articles/1989-49-4-tree-roots-facts-and-fallacies.pdf

I find it amazing how wide tree roots can go, how they graft together, how one root can feed one segment of canopy, how the microfauna infinitely extend the root zone, and all the other factors we don't even know about.

I know there are many other soil profiles around and yours may be quite different. Some have soil similar to mine. If you find a nearby excavation, find a tree root system exposed or even use a post hole digger you can get an idea of what you have. So, when to water really depends on your soil and the more you can learn & observe locally the better you will know what to do about it.

This reference "Tree roots: Facts and Myths" shows a lot about how tree roots grow.

I read the attached report, fascinating, who'd have thunk it.
I knew that many roots hand close to the surface but also believed that many go deeper forming something close to the illustration.  Is there additional research that support this paper?  Please link.

[Mugenia]

Thank you, Sir! In southern California, we have to water the grass everyday unfortunately.

You could. As long as your soil drains well enough. Not 100% ideal, but it would work. But daily watering sounds a bit extreme. Here, they only let us water the lawn twice a week, which is sufficient.

If you need something that's water loving, plant jaboticaba. I have daily drip irrigation on those buggers.

So basically, I can't plant mango trees on my lawn and have sprinkler heads spraying on my trees daily. Am I correct? I have a long walkway in the back of my yard. I was planning to line it with mango trees. I guess I will be planting it with sapodillas then.

Any other opinions and any others that water at the tree trunk like Zands does during the dry periods and any bad effects noted or not???

Let me correct that to watering mango trees with my garden hose at ground level. As opposed to having your mango trees planted on a lawn like many members do. Then having your lawn sprinkler system sending sprinkler water into the mango leaves and panicles and developing fruit. Then you might promote rot and fungus.

So do not train your garden hose only where the tree trunk meets the ground. But within the four- five foot diameter around the tree trunk. None of my trees are mulched more than a five ft diameter so this is where my roots and root absorbing action is. So I think. My philosophy - The feeder roots are on their own and should go scrounging for their food and water, which I know that many do not advocate.

[Cookie Monster]

Ohh, I didn't realize you were in socal. Here it's generally a non-issue, since our soil is basically sand. But I'm not 100% sure how things would turn out in socal. I know phytopthera has been an issue in your growing area. I'd personally give it a try anyway.

Thank you, Sir! In southern California, we have to water the grass everyday unfortunately.

You could. As long as your soil drains well enough. Not 100% ideal, but it would work. But daily watering sounds a bit extreme. Here, they only let us water the lawn twice a week, which is sufficient.

If you need something that's water loving, plant jaboticaba. I have daily drip irrigation on those buggers.

So basically, I can't plant mango trees on my lawn and have sprinkler heads spraying on my trees daily. Am I correct? I have a long walkway in the back of my yard. I was planning to line it with mango trees. I guess I will be planting it with sapodillas then.

Any other opinions and any others that water at the tree trunk like Zands does during the dry periods and any bad effects noted or not???

Let me correct that to watering mango trees with my garden hose at ground level. As opposed to having your mango trees planted on a lawn like many members do. Then having your lawn sprinkler system sending sprinkler water into the mango leaves and panicles and developing fruit. Then you might promote rot and fungus.

So do not train your garden hose only where the tree trunk meets the ground. But within the four- five foot diameter around the tree trunk. None of my trees are mulched more than a five ft diameter so this is where my roots and root absorbing action is. So I think. My philosophy - The feeder roots are on their own and should go scrounging for their food and water, which I know that many do not advocate.