Lemon Zest And Lemon Meringue Mangoes

[Vishnu]

Lemon Zest is polyembryonic? whats the difference between Lemon zest and Lemon meringue mangoes?

[simon_grow]

Try the search function in the upper right hand corner of this forum. You will find lots of information. You can also do a search on YouTube where there are several videos on these two varieties. Lemon Meringue is a smaller mango that is very sweet and has a citrus flavor reminiscent of lemon meringue. It’s original name is Po Pyu Kalay. Lemon Zest is an offspring of PPK and is a larger fruit that is also very sweet and has a citrus taste as well. Lemon Zest is more prone to Powdery Mildew.

They are both upright growers. Lemon Zest grows more vigorously in my yard compared to PPK. They are both Polyembryonic but please keep in mind that even clones can have differences compared to the parent such as the case with PPK vs LZ.

Simon

[knlim000]

so, does that mean I will get a lemon zest if I planted a PPK's seed?

[wslau]

so, does that mean I will get a lemon zest if I planted a PPK's seed?

No, you will not.

From what I understood, Lemon Zest was the zygote sprout from a PPK seed (poly).
So, Simon's comment above confused me when he said "clones" can have differences compared to the parent (in reference to LZ and PPK).  I think he meant "sprouts", not "clones".

[simon_grow]

Nope, I meant what I said. I am not sure if Lemon Zest came from the clone or the zygotic seedling but clones can be very different compared to the original parent.

If you plant a PPK seed, you will not get a Lemon Zest because LZ is a named variety selected by the Zills. If you get something unique from the PPK seedling, you can give it a unique name but don’t steal someone else’s name.

Simon

[Tropicdude]

so, does that mean I will get a lemon zest if I planted a PPK's seed?

The Lemon Zest is a seedling of PPK,   I do not believe anyone knows for certain at this point that it crossed with another variety,  self pollinated itself,  or is just a genetic variation of PPK,  in any case,   if you plant a PPK seed, it is very likely you will get a plant similar to the mother plant.  if you select the clone.    the chances of you getting a seedling with a variation exactly like Lemon Zest is a million to one shot.  or in other words extremely unlikely,  genetically it will be different than anything else on the planet,  so you cannot call it a Lemon Zest,  even if it has some similarities to it. 

Have fun, plants some PPK seeds,  I plan on getting a PPK in spring,  since this variety from what I have read,  is consistent,  taste good,  productive,  and my main reason, its Earlier season than Lemon Zest.  and I want to extend my season.

[knlim000]

oh, i think i get it now. thanks for the explanation everyone.

if i plant the PPK seed from seed, the taste is different for every seed that is planted?   It is still a mango, but the flavor is different for every seed.   That means I can name my seedling anything I want then.  Just for fun, if the seedling I plant is better than a LZ, I can name it BLZ(better than LZ) or SLZ(superior than LZ)?

[simon_grow]

oh, i think i get it now. thanks for the explanation everyone.

if i plant the PPK seed from seed, the taste is different for every seed that is planted?   It is still a mango, but the flavor is different for every seed.   That means I can name my seedling anything I want then.  Just for fun, if the seedling I plant is better than a LZ, I can name it BLZ(better than LZ) or SLZ(superior than LZ)?

There is a possibility that if you happen to grow out the clone, the clone will be identical or nearly identical to the parent tree. With genetic drift and random mutations, the clone could be different enough to warrant re naming but in my opinion, clarification by giving background information such as “Seedling of PPK” would help to avoid confusion.

So in other words, if the seedling tastes almost identical to PPK, it is my opinion that it should be called seedling of PPK. If it’s different enough to warrant re naming you may call it Super Lemon Zest and explain that it is a seedling of PPK.

I currently have a bunch of LZ, Sweeet Tart and a few Orange Sherbet seedlings growing and that’s exactly what I’m calling them for now until I can see how similar or different they are compared to the parent Fruit. One of my Orange Sherbet seedlings has an extremely strong Orangy citrus smell when I break the leaves and when it fruits, there is the potential that it could taste exactly like the real Orange Sherbet but I can’t call it Orange Sherbet but I can call it a seedling of Orange Sherbet.

Simon

[Guanabanus]

Careful....

A clonal embryo in a polyembryonic seed is an exact genetic copy of the maternal parent, which is the tree that bore the fruit in which the seed was found.

A zygotic embryo in a polyembryonic seed is a mix of the maternal parent (seed parent, which provided the ovule) and the paternal parent (which provided the pollen for "plant sex").

There is no such thing as "The Original parent", except as refering to the seed parent, in the case of a clonal embryo ("on-type").  Otherwise, it is "the parents" or "the grandparents" ....

People do get confused, because the word "clone" is often used instead of "variety";  and "clonal propagation" is sometimes said instead of "vegetative propagation."

[simon_grow]

Har, there can be genetic differences in nucellar seedlings so it would not be accurate to say the clonal embryo in a polyembryonic seed is an exact genetic copy of the parent that bore the fruit.
https://books.google.com/books?id=kcOpOB39QuMC&pg=PA350&lpg=PA350&dq=genetic+variability+in+nucellar+seedlings&source=bl&ots=7tXABfU681&sig=hikUOIvn-4wP_MJEfnIncp4J5J0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJzYea8bHXAhVU72MKHQ-TC104ChDoAQglMAA#v=onepage&q=genetic%20variability%20in%20nucellar%20seedlings&f=false

It is also important to remember that the environment itself can cause subtle, or not so subtle, changes in the genetic makeup of the plant. Environmental stresses may trigger the turning “on” or “off” of specific genes which leads to a cascading effect that can ultimately cause phenotypic and thus genotypic differences in the plant. This can be said for all plants however.

When researcher perform genetic testing with specific markers, they often use primers that are found in current literature in regions of the genome that are highly conserved but this causes issues because they are overlooking long expansions of the genome that may look like noise but may actually encode for an adaptive response to environmental stressors.

Simon

[behlgarden]

I have a beautiful lemon zest seedling into its 4th year, hoping that it fruits next year. leaves are long but not curly like the parent, but way more fragrant tangy smell. time will tell what I will get.

[Future]

 It seems to me that both Har and Simon could be correct at the same time. That is, an exact copy of the genetic material from the parents can be passed on in the seed, yet different expressions sometimes come from that seed based on environmental conditions etc.

[9B in Brazil]

Simon, I agree that chromosome translocation can produce some difference in the DNA of the somatic embryo, but when you refer to environmental conditions turning on and off genes, wouldn't these be like epigenetic changes where you would see these also in vegetative propagation?

[Tropicdude]

Simon, I agree that chromosome translocation can produce some difference in the DNA of the somatic embryo, but when you refer to environmental conditions turning on and off genes, wouldn't these be like epigenetic changes where you would see these also in vegetative propagation?

I see it that way, it's epigenome, snps can change from environmental factors, 

[9B in Brazil]

Perhaps that was what Simon was implying when he wrote "This can be said for all plants however."  Referring to epigenetic changes can occur in zygomatic embryos, somatic embryos and in vegetative propagation (scions), as well.

[simon_grow]

The somatic embryos talked about in the article I posted was referring to forced embryos created from somatic cells and cultured in specific media. I posted the link for the sentence that states “This indicates that genetic variation occurs naturally in nucellar seedlings”. To put it into context, that specific article was referring to isozyme banding patterns.

When I talked about environmental stressors causing a cascade, I was referring to epigenetics but the new epigenitics where traits can be heritable and not the old thought that it was not heritable. The noise in the genome was once thought to have no use but now researchers are finding out otherwise.

I’m sorry I can’t go into specifics, I can only repeat what is already published because of non disclosure agreements I signed when I was performing research. This video explains it in simple terms although epigenetics is anything but simple.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_aAhcNjmvhc

Planting polyembryonic seeds, you can get clones that are identical to the parents but you can also get seedlings that are a bit different. Things are much more complicated than what I can easily put into words but there are published articles out there that talk about things such as pollinating parent of a polyembryonic Mango having an affect on the number of nucellar seedlings.

Also, selecting the nucellar seedling/seedlings is not as simple as saying get rid of the offtype or that the clone is always the more dominant seedling. It is variety specific and one article I read stated that the zygotic seedling was the dominant seedling in up to 20% of the lot.

Most of this information is more than the average hobbyists backyard Mango grower wants or needs to know and that is why I suggested that when looking for a clone, simply keep all, or at least two seedlings from a polyembryonic seed and wait for all seedlings to mature and Fruit in order to tell which is the clone. One must be savvy and ensure that if only keeping two seedlings, the two seedlings are arising from different segments of seed.

I have often seen multiple sprouts coming from Monoembryonic seeds but they share the same origin and are not polyembryonic.

Simon

[behlgarden]

In my case I got 7 sprouts out of lemon zest, 4 survived, then only two survived. I never separated anything. one is 6 feet tall, other is mere 12 inches. dont know if big one is clone or not.

[simon_grow]

Behl, you can try to break a leaf off and smell the sap. The sap of LZ has a citrusy smell to it. The zygotic seedling could have the smell also but if you compare it to a real grafted LZ, you may be able to figure out if you got a clone or not. For Sweet Tart and Lemon Zest, most my seedlings that survived have the sap smell of the actual grafted parent variety.

Here’s a picture of some recently planted seedlings. The temperatures are in the 50’s at my location at night so I need to provide bottom heat or else the seeds won’t sprout at this time of year.




I’m trying to use rooting gel to see if I can get the small fragments of polyembryonic seeds to sprout

There’s a small fragment of seed that’s about the size of a pea that I’m hoping to sprout in this gel matrix
Simon

[Guanabanus]

Yes, anything that can go wrong, will go wrong sometime.   Besides the epigenetic, environmentally-induced changes, mutations also can occur in any clonal embryo, just as mutations can occur in any branch of a tree.

Notice the different 'Nam Docmai' clones.   We don't know if these arose from self-pollinations or from mutations.

[Future]

Behl, you can try to break a leaf off and smell the sap. The sap of LZ has a citrusy smell to it. The zygotic seedling could have the smell also but if you compare it to a real grafted LZ, you may be able to figure out if you got a clone or not. For Sweet Tart and Lemon Zest, most my seedlings that survived have the sap smell of the actual grafted parent variety.

Here’s a picture of some recently planted seedlings. The temperatures are in the 50’s at my location at night so I need to provide bottom heat or else the seeds won’t sprout at this time of year.




I’m trying to use rooting gel to see if I can get the small fragments of polyembryonic seeds to sprout

There’s a small fragment of seed that’s about the size of a pea that I’m hoping to sprout in this gel matrix
Simon

I dig the gel use.  What gel brand are you using?

[simon_grow]

I picked up the gel from Walter Anderson Nursery and the product is called Gel2root. This gel is for softwood cuttings but I figure I’ll give it a try for these seeds.

Simon

[behlgarden]

Simon,

like I said above, fragrance is not only similar but much stronger than LZ, and leaves are bit different, not curling like LZ. so it may be a mystery variation OR not.

[simon_grow]

Hey Behl, hopefully your tree will Fruit soon so you can evaluate it’s potential. I’ve also noticed that the Lemon Sest seedlings have a much stronger citrus smell to it than the grafted LZ.

Simon

[CA Hockey]

Simon

Re: gel2root, I tried it with a few plants including pomegranate. Suffice to say that the cuttings were alive and had some growth but never developed actual roots. Pomegranate is so easy to root otherwise but I couldn't believe I didn't get anything in the gel2root medium for 2 months.

I finally removed the pieces and grew them successfully outdoors in a pot. All the gel2root seemed to do was keep it alive. Didn't notice any roots or anything. When I looked at reviews afterward she, it seemed to have lots of negative ones where people had a similar experience.

Good luck
K

[simon_grow]

Thanks for the heads up. Gel2root says it’s for green or softwood cuttings so I’m not surprised it was not very successful for pomegranates. Poms are easily air layered but cuttings root best when brown or hardened wood is taken in a the dormant season around Winter or very early Spring.

I used to make and use defined growth media with various concentrations of PGRs but now I’m working in a different field and I’m too busy with my kids to look up protocols. One can easily find generic formulas online and pour their own agarose.

I believe the product would work well with its intended target such as Tomato’s in Spring or Summer. My seeds that I stuck into this gel will be deprived of Oxygen very quickly since I fully submerged the seeds but I want to see how long they will last before they give out. In the picture, you can see one seed has a root forming already so I should have pulled it out but I like to see how much abuse they can take. I’ll proba pull that one out and see if it can be revived from suffocation:)

Simon