Florida Natural Farming?

[agroventuresperu]

I thought Costa Rica was a lot more progressive than Peru. Don't they pay farmers there to preserve forest? Things are pretty out of hand here. As much money as the government takes from the citizens, you'd think they'd actually do their jobs. If someone is clearcutting (and burning) a tract of land zoned as forest, you'd think it would be as simple as calling the police and the people being arrested within the hour. Instead, the Peruvian government opts for a much more bureaucratic process that inadvertently gives the offenders up to another month and a half to keep destroying more forest before the gov't forestry agency is obligated to visit the site.

It only is progressive in tourist areas and in media. the amount of money they pay for reforestation is enough to pay your yearly property taxes, not more than that. Laws here are very poorly imposed. after someone stole our electric meter, police itself tells us to put up a high fence, a camera, get a couple of guard dogs and some loud geese 😩. Their investigation ends at taking a report and photos of the "crime scene". Even violent criminals (caught during an organized robbery, for example) let go after 48 hours in many cases. and everyone burns plastic garbage though it's illegal, and does controlled fires of fields, though it's illegal, too. organic certification here is a joke, you basically just need to keep a journal and tick mark things you do, and tell the inspector "yes" or "no" for him/her to tick mark a form. The local organic association guy lives 15 meters from Delmonte fields and sells his produce in the farmers market as organic, and teaches others how to farm organically.
Many nasty chemicals that are prohibited in Europe and even in the US find their way here; common people think that Glyphosate is organic and that "soil doesn't have enough nutrients so we have to put in fertilizers" (direct quote, I'm not kidding....) no one ever using protection while spraying; lots of education is needed to prevent locals from ending up like in Madagascar, because Delmonte and Chiquita (the biggest ag players here) are doing their quick and dirty job of destroying the biodiversity and soil, and the local culture makes it too easy to use chemicals to make everything look "clean" and "neat", just burn all the grasses with glyphosate "only once", and you will have no problem with pasto - that's what our neighbor keeps telling us every time he passes by... he did it, and now he has a perfectly manicured soccer field that no one ever plays in.
I wonder how it is on Peter's side, because here in Perez it's very hard.

Wow! Sounds like business as usual in latin america. Just out of curiosity, do you know what soil classifications are common in your area?

[agroventuresperu]

I am a bit sceptical about soil biota and additives being able to release nutrients locked up in mineral form.

There's so much nuance there. So much we don't know. Phosphorus is a great example. So many different forms. Here's an excerpt from Pedro Sanchez's book, Properties and Management of Soils in the Tropics.

Here he explains the steps of a Hedley Fractionation to distinguish among the different types of Phosphorus in a soil sample:
 

• Soil solution Pi: resin Pi, capturing phosphate anions in the soil solution.
• Labile Pi: available Pi, or Olsen soil test available phosphorus (bicarb Pi). When another soil test is more effective in a region, such as Mehlich or Bray, it can be used instead. This is why I call this fraction labile and not bicarb.
 • Active Po: labile Po. Clearly, this is because it contributes directly to plant available phosphorus by rapid mineralization.
• Sorbed Pi: The NaOH-extractable Pi fraction, phosphorus sorbed on the surfaces of iron and aluminum oxides (Garcia-Montiel et al. 2000).
• Slow Po: NaOH-extractable Po.
• Primary weatherable phosphorus minerals: sonic Pi.
 • Passive Po: sonic Po + residual Po: extracted with hot, concentrated HCl (Tiessen and Moir 1993) if measured.
• Calcium-bonded Pi (Ca-Pi): dilute HCl-extractable Pi. May reflect the phosphorus fertilizer that has not reacted, as well as any apatite present.
• Residual phosphorus: H2SO4-extractable Pi: Mostly occluded and reductant soluble Pi 

 And some comments about biologicial influence on the availability of some of these fractions:

Mycorrhizal associations with roots are extremely
important for most tropical plants and increase the effective
root area from 2 to over 800 times. Mycorrhizal plants take
up not only the soil solution Pi and labile Pi and Po pools but
are also able to access sorbed (NaOH) Pi.

Plant roots continually exude complex mixtures of carbon
compounds into the rhizosphere. This includes organic
acids such as citric, malic, acetic, lactic, oxalic, piscidic
acids, and others. These acids dissolve solid fractions of
inorganic and organic phosphorus, bringing it into the labile
and soil solution phosphorus.

Some acids can be quite specific. Ae et al. (1990) found
that piscidic acid exudates by pigeon pea dissolved some of
the iron-bound phosphorus in a red Alfisol but did not react
with calcium-bonded phosphorus in an adjacent black Vertisol in Patancheru, India. In a phosphorus-deficient (2 mg/
kg Olsen P) Oxisol of western Kenya, George et al. (2002)
found that the phosphorus-accumulating shrub Tithonia
diversifolia slightly acidified the rhizosphere, lowering the
pH from 4.8 to 4.5, causing a significant decrease in the soil
solution Pi, sorbed Pi and the slow Po fractions up to about
6 mm distance, suggesting that part of these fractions were
taken up by the plant. In contrast, the legume Tephrosia
vogelii increased the rhizosphere pH from 4.8 to 5.4, which
decreased the slow Po fraction. While such research cannot
establish quantitative effects, or whether it is the effect of
organic acid exudation or of a proton balance, George et al.’s
data imply that these two very different agroforestry species
may be able to tap sorbed Pi and the slow organic Po fraction.
It is interesting that the labile Pi and active Po fractions were
not affected.
Roots can secrete acid phosphatase ectoenzymes, which
they do faster and in larger quantities when phosphorus
deficiency occurs, breaking down some organic phosphorus
pools. Rao et al. (1999) also suggested that species tolerant to
low available phosphorus levels, such as Stylosanthes guianensis and Brachiaria decumbens secrete phytase, the enzyme that
breaks down inositol hexaphosphate (the main constituent
of organic phosphorus) in these phosphorus-deficient soils.
The rhizosphere processes are an evolving science, with few
hard data at the field level.

[Epiphyte]

which fruit trees should fnf add next?? 

mammea americana - my friend from martinique says this was her favorite fruit there
ficus auriculata - i linked to the variety at fairchild that doesn't require pollination and tastes like strawberries
jelly palm - for a palm the fruit is quite good, but not sure how well it grows in florida? 
spondias tuberosa - this is tricky to grow? 
solanum muricatum - i tried this recently for the 1st time and really enjoyed it, but might not be so happy in vero beach? 
davidsonia pruriens - also tried it recently for the 1st time.  too sour but the tree is beautiful. 
psidium friedrichsthalianum - another recent 1st time taste.  sour but also sweet, enjoyable. 
garcinia russell's sweet - does he already have this? 
garcinia xanthochymus - i don't remember him ever mentioning it? 
manilkara bella - no idea how the fruit tastes but it's a beautiful tree
noronhia emarginata - another attractive tree, looks like a clusia but fruit tastes like lychee (haven't tasted it myself yet)
elaeagnus latifolia - nitrogen fixer with interesting fruit

what else? 

[agroventuresperu]

Epiphyte, thank you for the info on germination and the offer of seeds, maybe I'll take you up on it one day.

Satya, watched your video.  Thank you for sharing, I've been off the forum for awhile, but will be updating posts on my projects soon.  My favorite posts on the forum are when people share how and what they are growing and especially when I get to see photos of all the different growing spaces and plants.  So want to contribute to the forum in that way as well.

I consider wood chip or chop and drop mulch and living mulch both important in how I grow. 

Mulch is beneficial for a number of reasons that we are all familiar with like protecting the soil and holding in moisture. 

Living plants used as a living mulch may even be more beneficial if you have the right plants for your growing conditions.  Not only does it provide ground cover and protection holding moisture, it's the root exudates on growing plants that feed the soil microorganisms in the rhizosphere buffering pH and turning minerals into a usable form by plant roots.  Plants capture carbon and contribute to the hydrologic cycle.  It seems counterintuitive but I've found that plants in groups hold moisture longer and grow better together.  There are exceptions of course, finding the right plants that don't dominate. 

The science of soil microbiology is evolving rapidly.  What seemed like settled science just a few years ago are being challenged.  There's a lot of fascinating stuff happening beneath our feet.  Many are aware now how important mycorrhizal fungi are.  There are also studies finding that roots exude light underground, why are they sending out light waves in the darkness of the earth?   The more people that start growing in a way that protects and supports our soil, the closer we get to growing to our potential.

Janet

This is a great question. Which offers the better net benefit? The living plants that use nutrients and may even have allelopathic effects like a lot of pasture grasses? Or the traditional orchard management of mow & mulch?

In our pasture I think the grass might even offer a better net benefit despite its allelopathic effect. The roots are pretty deep and are able to mine nutrients from aluminum toxic subsoil that many of the tree species' roots are not even able to grow in. They help add soil organic matter to the profile via root exudates.

The grass is not that bad in my opinion. We have been able to let ours go for over 12 months at a time between mowings. I actually think it's worse to have other plants, because then you end up with more challenging plants like kudzu and calopogonium or even spiny plants. We have some areas where the grass never established well, and those areas are more of a pain, with woody weeds growing.

[Mike T]

No question that mycorrhizae and symbiotic root fungi is vitally important for nutrient uptake and there a many species and specialist associations. My scepticism was regarding the ability of systems and specific plants to unlock meaningful volumes of plant nutrients in existing minerals and even rock flour it its added. You need to be careful with fodder plants which are frequently serious weeds. Buffel, Brachiara and leucaena are bad news in many areas. Mowing once a year? I have to strain the mower through 12 inch wet shagpile like dense grass every fortnight.

[pineislander]

but just the fact that I use irrigation and mulch made me part of the horrible ones....

What's wrong with mulch? I never heard anyone in the organic/regenerative space criticize the use of mulch. In my Environmental Horticulture AS program, the instructors drove the point home about all the benefits of mulch.

pineisander...why are you not mentioning that you use synthetic fertilizers? As far as I remember, Eric didn't like the fact that you were doing 100% clearing of the land before planting "permaculture" in its place, not that you used mulch. I understand you had lots of "bad" trees like melaleuca but 100% bulldozing of land and then creating a "permaculture" forest in its place is something I would consider quite questionable if you want to be teaching permaculture to others and be the example of it. Would be nice if everyone named things by their names, not tried to make things look like they're something they're not. then no one would argue.

There were significant differences in our sites. Eric started with a 50 year old mowed horse pasture and scattered mature trees. I started with a complete suite of the local invasive trees, Brazil Pepper, Melaleuca, Ear Acacia, wild grape and Smilax. So clearing that was called for, you aren't going to grow trees inside there. I have a video of it, and if you check the channel you can see how the clearing progressed. All the biomass possible was recycled back on site except stumps were burned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25BPpPIpZo

Eric was against mulch, until he started using it. He said that mulch didn't let other plants grow but that's only if you don't plant in the mulch and just leave splace as a "mulch desert". I see that he's now using imported hay animal bedding from his midget cows as mulch piles around his trees. It humorous to watch.

As for irrigation, Eric got screwed when he bought a place with a great artesian well that free flows. The problem with that turned out to be such poor quality water it poisons the soil with salts. At first he claimed he could let the well flow and flood the property for frost protection. But he found that irrigation wasnt possible with the poor quality artesian water. After that anybody who irrigates to grow trees became a sinner.

Yes, I use every rational form of fertility management. I've used commercial slow release, made massive compost and biochar, made my own drums of fish emulsion from fish house scraps, spread about 6,000 cubic yards of mulch, planted legumes from all the continents, chop and drop. My latest has been vermiculture I built a system to generate 5 cubic yard batches of worm castings twice a year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlaqdLUHvvU

Im generally eclectic in my approaches, seldom dogmatic, and always open to experimentation. Most years I've broken even on profitability despite a fairly high capital startup cost during establishment.
 

[Bush2Beach]

New shadehouse and worm bins are looking great!
Just wondering about the metal lids and how hot it can get in there. It looked like all the worms were at the bottom when you poked around in there and the temp on top was 88.
And then you manually scoop it onto a little trailer to move around the farm?

[pineislander]

New shadehouse and worm bins are looking great!
Just wondering about the metal lids and how hot it can get in there. It looked like all the worms were at the bottom when you poked around in there and the temp on top was 88.
And then you manually scoop it onto a little trailer to move around the farm?

The covers are vinyl soffitting, and after winter I leave them propped open. That was two years ago. I use a fork and front end loader to move the castings to trees, sometimes a large wheelbarrow. 

[agroventuresperu]

No question that mycorrhizae and symbiotic root fungi is vitally important for nutrient uptake and there a many species and specialist associations. My scepticism was regarding the ability of systems and specific plants to unlock meaningful volumes of plant nutrients in existing minerals and even rock flour it its added. You need to be careful with fodder plants which are frequently serious weeds. Buffel, Brachiara and leucaena are bad news in many areas. Mowing once a year? I have to strain the mower through 12 inch wet shagpile like dense grass every fortnight.

When I first got into horticulture I heard things like, "growing plants! How hard can that be? Just put them in dirt and give em water."

I think it's possible what you're asking about. I've seen large trees in many places growing out of rocks, so it's not like there's some large volume of soil that they are tapping into.

I don't think anyone has all the answers. In my opinion a lot of regenerative/biological farming types like to predate on the wishful thinking of people in that space with anecdotal, untested, unproven products and approaches. Their audience cuts them too much slack. It's refreshing to read posts like pineislander's above post. It's not a religion. Growing plants is like anything, on the surface it seems simple, but when you take a deep dive into the rabbit hole and go ever further into the nitty gritty, it's more complicated than brain surgery.

Oh yeah. Once a year. I think we even did 1.5 years in some areas. Some places have 12 foot tall grass. We use high-powered Maruyama weedwackers with brush blades. I'd like to find some sort of brush hog, but it's not practical in this context.

[Satya]

Wow! Sounds like business as usual in latin america. Just out of curiosity, do you know what soil classifications are common in your area?

Never checked. I know that our soil is porous red clay or clay sand, it's very unusual and i've never seen soil like this anywhere else. It has all the properties of sand when dry, it breaks into small tiny particles and flows like sand, but when it's wet it becomes totally like clay to a degree you can make dishes out of it. Very porous and light, plants love it. No need to amend as it's very rich in minerals, we just add compost but I don't think even that is needed since the pasture has been amending it with rotting matter, it's also full of worms so no need for vermicompost.

[Satya]

There were significant differences in our sites. Eric started with a 50 year old mowed horse pasture and scattered mature trees. I started with a complete suite of the local invasive trees, Brazil Pepper, Melaleuca, Ear Acacia, wild grape and Smilax. So clearing that was called for, you aren't going to grow trees inside there. I have a video of it, and if you check the channel you can see how the clearing progressed. All the biomass possible was recycled back on site except stumps were burned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25BPpPIpZo

Eric was against mulch, until he started using it. He said that mulch didn't let other plants grow but that's only if you don't plant in the mulch and just leave splace as a "mulch desert". I see that he's now using imported hay animal bedding from his midget cows as mulch piles around his trees. It humorous to watch.

As for irrigation, Eric got screwed when he bought a place with a great artesian well that free flows. The problem with that turned out to be such poor quality water it poisons the soil with salts. At first he claimed he could let the well flow and flood the property for frost protection. But he found that irrigation wasnt possible with the poor quality artesian water. After that anybody who irrigates to grow trees became a sinner.

Yes, I use every rational form of fertility management. I've used commercial slow release, made massive compost and biochar, made my own drums of fish emulsion from fish house scraps, spread about 6,000 cubic yards of mulch, planted legumes from all the continents, chop and drop. My latest has been vermiculture I built a system to generate 5 cubic yard batches of worm castings twice a year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlaqdLUHvvU

Im generally eclectic in my approaches, seldom dogmatic, and always open to experimentation. Most years I've broken even on profitability despite a fairly high capital startup cost during establishment.

honestly I also didn't quite get using commercial hay bedding (most likely treated with glyphosate) and at the same time religiously washing off non-organic soil from the roots of the purchased 3gallons (where does that soil go? Garbage?), but hey, we all have our own understanding of organic agriculture lol. We're not on talking terms any longer but I quite enjoy some of the lessons I learned from visiting his farm, and keep the practices going, now on a larger scale.

[Galatians522]

Wow! Sounds like business as usual in latin america. Just out of curiosity, do you know what soil classifications are common in your area?

Never checked. I know that our soil is porous red clay or clay sand, it's very unusual and i've never seen soil like this anywhere else. It has all the properties of sand when dry, it breaks into small tiny particles and flows like sand, but when it's wet it becomes totally like clay to a degree you can make dishes out of it. Very porous and light, plants love it. No need to amend as it's very rich in minerals, we just add compost but I don't think even that is needed since the pasture has been amending it with rotting matter, it's also full of worms so no need for vermicompost.

What you are describing sounds like clay loam. It is typically regarded as the most fertile soil world wide. Congrats for finding such a gem.

[Satya]

Wow! Sounds like business as usual in latin america. Just out of curiosity, do you know what soil classifications are common in your area?

Never checked. I know that our soil is porous red clay or clay sand, it's very unusual and i've never seen soil like this anywhere else. It has all the properties of sand when dry, it breaks into small tiny particles and flows like sand, but when it's wet it becomes totally like clay to a degree you can make dishes out of it. Very porous and light, plants love it. No need to amend as it's very rich in minerals, we just add compost but I don't think even that is needed since the pasture has been amending it with rotting matter, it's also full of worms so no need for vermicompost.

What you are describing sounds like clay loam. It is typically regarded as the most fertile soil world wide. Congrats for finding such a gem.

hoorah, thanks. Next is to remove the winds from the equation and add some rain (even once a week/2 weeks) during the dry season, and we are golden