Greenhouse, RootMaker pots for tropicals and fruit "porn"

[Mark in Texas]

Wow, this is RICH!  Our first home grown Lemon Zest mango.  Whopping sweetness, brix = 28* !!!  Holds its acid well, now I know where the Lemon comes from. Has that citrus flavor that reminds us of tangerine.  Wife said "this is so rich I don't know if I could eat a whole one."  Ditto. Found the best way to prepare it for big chunks is to skin it with a paring knife first.  We ate it raw and then tried it with key lime and Trechas on it.  Wife used to hate mango.  No more!

[FruitFreak]

Awesome pics.  Really cool that wifey is converted,  I'm currently working on mine.  Most people don't seem to understand just how many different flavors and textures there are.  The few LZs that I've tried have not been so orange and I just remember thinking I want to eat more, haha.  Thanks for sharing

[Mark in Texas]

Awesome pics.  Really cool that wifey is converted,  I'm currently working on mine.  Most people don't seem to understand just how many different flavors and textures there are.  The few LZs that I've tried have not been so orange and I just remember thinking I want to eat more, haha.  Thanks for sharing

Thanks Marley.  Very complex. 

My cocktail mango tree is on its second set of leaf sets FWIW.   Very healthy, vigorous tree. I put a graft of Fruit Punch on the LZ, still green, about to push.

Hope that rain stops at your new orchard!

[simon_grow]

Wow, this is RICH!  Our first home grown Lemon Zest mango.  Whopping sweetness, brix = 28* !!!  Holds its acid well, now I know where the Lemon comes from. Has that citrus flavor that reminds us of tangerine.  Wife said "this is so rich I don't know if I could eat a whole one."  Ditto. Found the best way to prepare it for big chunks is to skin it with a paring knife first.  We ate it raw and then tried it with key lime and Trechas on it.  Wife used to hate mango.  No more!

Mark, that's awesome that your first Lemon Zest turned out sweet and flavorful. You must really know what you're doing when it comes to watering, fertilizing and all other aspects of growing fruit trees considering how young your trees are and that they are grown in bottomless pots. You stuck with your plan and achieved your goal of fruiting Sweet Tart and Lemon Zest in a greenhouse. Both these varieties are relatively vigorous upright growers but your pruning and PGR program was obviously successful.

Other people trying to grow Mangos in small spaces, especially those living in extremely cold weather may be able to replicate what you are doing and create a mini mango orchard in their garage or other small space by using HID lights. How tall and wide were your plants when you harvested the fruit?

Simon

[Mark in Texas]

How tall and wide were your plants when you harvested the fruit?

Simon

Thanks Simon, sorry it's been so long since I responded.  Not having the email flag doesn't help.  Recently been clicking on "New replies" option top left of page.  duh......    Takes me a while.

I harvested 6 nice ST off a tree that is only about 3' X 3'.   Harvested 3 Lemon Zest, tree is about 5' H X 3' wide, branches tied up to a stake.

[ThangBom321]

What a good read! I think you just about have my dream greenhouse. I decided to build a hoophouse at my parents homestead and plant pineapple (idk why but I love the sweet tarts Tang of pineapple), cadoes, mangoes, Logan, lychee, citrus, and jackfruit. I would try a mangosteen if I can find the fruit/seed to sow. It would be super cool to grow a durian but they get to big and tall.

ThangBom

[Mark in Texas]

What a good read! I think you just about have my dream greenhouse. I decided to build a hoophouse at my parents homestead and plant pineapple (idk why but I love the sweet tarts Tang of pineapple), cadoes, mangoes, Logan, lychee, citrus, and jackfruit. I would try a mangosteen if I can find the fruit/seed to sow. It would be super cool to grow a durian but they get to big and tall.

ThangBom

Good luck with that and keep us posted.  Cooling will be your biggest challenge. Probably the easiest solution is to roll up the sides or remove and replace with shade cloth.

[ThangBom321]

That's the plan. Roll up the sides with a simple hand crank and a window or something at the top (open at bottom per your suggestion to control light). Then drip hoses on timers to water. If I ever make the 4.5 Drive to wine land, it would be awesome to be able to check your GH out.

Thangbom

[Mark in Texas]

I expanded the Reed avocado pot yesterday to a whopping 100 Gallon!  Here's the step by step blow.
 
Mixed and transported soil to the greenhouse using my tractor.  Used almost the entire bucket on the pot expansion.  Soil is washed builder's sand, perlite, vermiculite, compost, blood meal, pine bark.  No measuring, just dump and mix.



Popped the cable ties and cut a longer set of panels for expansion.  Notice no root spin out, the pot works as designed creating a fibrous, very efficient root system.



The "new" pot is back filled half way now, notice the exposed fine white roots when the wall collapsed a bit.  Very healthy roots!



Backfilled and mulched.  This (recovering) Reed, now coming out of its shock after taking 18F for a few hours, should grow with a vengeance.  It is pushing green all over the stubs.

[FruitFreak]

I expanded the Reed avocado pot yesterday to a whopping 100 Gallon!  Here's the step by step blow.
 
Mixed and transported soil to the greenhouse using my tractor.  Used almost the entire bucket on the pot expansion.  Soil is washed builder's sand, perlite, vermiculite, compost, blood meal, pine bark.  No measuring, just dump and mix.



Popped the cable ties and cut a longer set of panels for expansion.  Notice no root spin out, the pot works as designed creating a fibrous, very efficient root system.



The "new" pot is back filled half way now, notice the exposed fine white roots when the wall collapsed a bit.  Very healthy roots!



Backfilled and mulched.  This (recovering) Reed, now coming out of its shock after taking 18F for a few hours, should grow with a vengeance.  It is pushing green all over the stubs.

Wow those pots are awesome along with those roots!  More roots = More cados

[Mark in Texas]

Wow those pots are awesome along with those roots!  More roots = More cados

Yep, and it better.  You don't know how many hundreds of shovels (it seems) it takes to fill up that void. 

Time to get to another one, my Frankencado which so far is only pushing from the rootstock.

[Seanny]

Nice raised bed.

[Empoweredandfree]

Looking great Mark! Glad I invested in a few to try out this year.

[z_willus_d]

Hi Mark, I'm about to make a RootBuilderII purchase of the 100' rolls.  I mean to use it on the side of my house (as you can view here: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=27042.msg312313#msg312313).  I haven't yet decided whether to block the bottom of the pot (no in ground roots) or allow root penetration (up/down).  The reason I would want to disallow below surface rooting are:
1) I might want to relocate these trees in the mid-term future.
2) The neighbor has three well established fruit trees, and I don't want those roots "feeding" into my rootbuilder soil
3) I had several trees in the area that I recently pulled up, and their roots are overrunning the sub-surface.

I'd love to hear what folks think about blocking the roots at the ground surface.

Another choice point I have.  I can purchase the double-height (34") Root-Builder roll.  This is double the cost, but it might work better if I were to block the surface off.  It would also give me more room to create a mulching layer.  Thoughts?

BTW, working with a local Hydro store, I was able to get the Wholesale pricing for these ($250/roll standard height).  Something to consider if others are looking to purchase in bulk.

Thanks,
Naysen

[FrankDrebinOfFruits]

Hi Mark, I'm about to make a RootBuilderII purchase of the 100' rolls.  I mean to use it on the side of my house (as you can view here: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=27042.msg312313#msg312313).  I haven't yet decided whether to block the bottom of the pot (no in ground roots) or allow root penetration (up/down).  The reason I would want to disallow below surface rooting are:
1) I might want to relocate these trees in the mid-term future.
2) The neighbor has three well established fruit trees, and I don't want those roots "feeding" into my rootbuilder soil
3) I had several trees in the area that I recently pulled up, and their roots are overrunning the sub-surface.

I'd love to hear what folks think about blocking the roots at the ground surface.

Another choice point I have.  I can purchase the double-height (34") Root-Builder roll.  This is double the cost, but it might work better if I were to block the surface off.  It would also give me more room to create a mulching layer.  Thoughts?

BTW, working with a local Hydro store, I was able to get the Wholesale pricing for these ($250/roll standard height).  Something to consider if others are looking to purchase in bulk.

Thanks,
Naysen

3M makes an product, I forget the exact name. Its the one used by Dr Yonnemoto (Japanese greenhouse mangos) for keeping the roots from penetrating. I believe I posted the name on the forum a few years ago.  It's similar to tyvek but I think its thicker. If In a pinch I would use tyvek.

[z_willus_d]

Hi Mark, I'm about to make a RootBuilderII purchase of the 100' rolls.  I mean to use it on the side of my house (as you can view here: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=27042.msg312313#msg312313).  I haven't yet decided whether to block the bottom of the pot (no in ground roots) or allow root penetration (up/down).  The reason I would want to disallow below surface rooting are:
1) I might want to relocate these trees in the mid-term future.
2) The neighbor has three well established fruit trees, and I don't want those roots "feeding" into my rootbuilder soil
3) I had several trees in the area that I recently pulled up, and their roots are overrunning the sub-surface.

I'd love to hear what folks think about blocking the roots at the ground surface.

Another choice point I have.  I can purchase the double-height (34") Root-Builder roll.  This is double the cost, but it might work better if I were to block the surface off.  It would also give me more room to create a mulching layer.  Thoughts?

BTW, working with a local Hydro store, I was able to get the Wholesale pricing for these ($250/roll standard height).  Something to consider if others are looking to purchase in bulk.

Thanks,
Naysen

3M makes an product, I forget the exact name. Its the one used by Dr Yonnemoto (Japanese greenhouse mangos) for keeping the roots from penetrating. I believe I posted the name on the forum a few years ago.  It's similar to tyvek but I think its thicker. If In a pinch I would use tyvek.

Thanks for the note.  I see products that might be similar on Amazon (search "tree root shield"), though they are somewhat expensive.  The larger question I have is as to whether or not limiting the roots in such a way will be detrimental to Avocado tree growth, even if I limit trees with heavy pruning, dwarf variety, etc.  Another option I've read used with Fig is to drill one or two large holes in the root barrier, which allows a tap root that can easily be cut if/when moving the above ground "containered" plant.

[Mark in Texas]

I'd love to hear what folks think about blocking the roots at the ground surface.

You can buy bottoms.   Check this out.  About page 27 shows how to kill the tap root on avocado in lieu of creating a shallow branching network of roots. http://htfg.org/conferences/2016/2016_JohnYoshimiYonemoto_GrowingandHarvestingtheBestAvocados.pdf

Another choice point I have.  I can purchase the double-height (34") Root-Builder roll.

Waste of material and time.  The 16" is all you need, especially for avocado.   Been there, done that.

BTW, working with a local Hydro store, I was able to get the Wholesale pricing for these ($250/roll standard height).  Something to consider if others are looking to purchase in bulk.

Naysen, that is not wholesale cost and hydro stores are not your friend.    Buy direct from the company.  It's much cheaper.   Shipping will add on at least $40.  When you tie together go 4 holes down, at least 3 large black cable ties.  Run a strap or 18 ga. wire around the middle. 

Good luck!

[Mark in Texas]

Looking great Mark! Glad I invested in a few to try out this year.

Thanks and good luck!   Buy a roll, strip off what you need and sell the rest for $3.00/panel.  There are 96 panels per roll. 

Here's a panels to pot size conversion table:

3 panels = 7 gallons

4 = 15

5 = 20

6  = 30

7 = 40

8 = 55

9 = 70

10 = 100 gallons

[z_willus_d]

Hi Mark, I was hoping you would chime in on my project.  I'm glad you steered me towards the single height, as the double literally doubles the cost, so $250/roll becomes $500/roll.  I thought the 250/roll wasn't bad.  I'm not sure how to get wholesale, but I'll try.  What's really taking me aback is the shipping quote I just got -- $240 to ship two rolls to CA.  Ouch!

I'm familiar with that .pdf you linked, and I have in fact studied it with great interest over the past couple weeks.  So of the concerns I have with their process and its applicability to my situation:
1) They have very controlled temperature ranges that will not apply to my situation.  I'll probably see a more wind (though nothing too bad in my semi-protected location).
2) They are purposefully limiting the tree's trunk girth/strength so as to emphasize energy for fruiting.  This means they are trellising or otherwise supporting the 2/3 horizontally trained main branches - almost like a grapevine.
3) If I was able to "train" an avocado in this way, I wonder if it would be transportable in the future.  I guess I would have to cut back the main leader branches before transport, but maybe that would be recoverable.
4) They're using Paclobutrazol, and I question how "safe" that is for edibles.  At the least, it must invalidate the "organic-ness" of the product.  Have you used it?  I can't find much here on its use for Avocados.
5) I wonder if I will be able to supply the amount of water required during flowering/fruiting with my shared drip loop.  That's more of a logistics issue that might apply to any Avocado tree planting, though it seems like it would be more important when you're "potted" with limited grow media (depth, volume, etc.)

All that said, I was thinking to try and implement something like the methods described in Yonemoto presentation.  I'd be interested if anyone else on the forum have tried his methods, and if so in a non-greenhouse environment.

Any tips on getting the RootBuilderII supplier to offer wholesale?  Any group-buys in the works?

Thanks!
-naysen

[Mark in Texas]

$240 to ship two rolls to CA.  Ouch!

Huh?  $40 from Alabama to central Texas, one roll.

4) They're using Paclobutrazol, and I question how "safe" that is for edibles.  At the least, it must invalidate the "organic-ness" of the product.  Have you used it?  I can't find much here on its use for Avocados.

Do a Google.  Indians have used it for decades on mangos.  Applications rates are available.  I apply paclo (Bonzi) to a lanky tree to cut down on internode length.  Works well.  The ppm is miniscule.  Toxicity is relative to your weight and other factors which I won't get into now.  Just because it's labeled for ornamentals doesn't mean it's harmful.  Most times it means the manufacturer has a good market already for other plant material he has deemed as a target and doesn't want to go thru the bullshit and expense of submitting their product to the EPA, etc. for food crops.

Any tips on getting the RootBuilderII supplier to offer wholesale?  Any group-buys in the works?

Tell them your wholesale.  I have a registered farm name and tax ID to back it up but they didn't ask for any ID.

[z_willus_d]

$240 to ship two rolls to CA.  Ouch!

Huh?  $40 from Alabama to central Texas, one roll.

Shipping turned out to be more reasonable.  UPS had $96 to ship two of the [RBII17H, 17" X 96 Panels RootBuilder II] rolls to CA, so that's not too far off from the $40 you had.  I should be set for a while.

One curiosity I had was around what the actual size of each panel is.  Apparently a 100' roll is made up of 96 panels, so does that mean the length of each panel comes out to just above a foot at 12.5", or are each panel exactly 17" x 12".

For the bottoms, I'm contemplating running cement pavers atop the 4foot-wide dirt run on the West by SouthWest facing 50' area shown in the below pics.  I think I can fit six trees in individual RBII expandable containers using 8' spacing and applying the John Yoshimi Yonemoto process.  I think the pavers migh provide some temp buffer in the cold months while also blocking roots from the neighbor's trees (and limiting the Avocado tree tap-roots).  I might run a trellis above down the line to support the horizontal branches.  Hopefully the spacing isn't too cramped, light exposure too low, nor wind/cold-temps exposure too great.  At any rate, I don't want to hijack your topic here further, but I do appreciate the inputs.  If folks are interested, I can post on my progress.  I think this is along the lines of projects performed by at least one or two other folks on the forum, though I haven't seen anything like this done as far north as Sacramento Valley.

[Mark in Texas]

Shipping turned out to be more reasonable.  UPS had $96 to ship two of the [RBII17H, 17" X 96 Panels RootBuilder II] rolls to CA, so that's not too far off from the $40 you had.  I should be set for a while.

One curiosity I had was around what the actual size of each panel is.  Apparently a 100' roll is made up of 96 panels, so does that mean the length of each panel comes out to just above a foot at 12.5", or are each panel exactly 17" x 12".

13"
 

If folks are interested, I can post on my progress.  I think this is along the lines of projects performed by at least one or two other folks on the forum, though I haven't seen anything like this done as far north as Sacramento Valley.

Keep us posted.  Sounds interesting.  I assume you can provide winter protection if needed.  What do you plan on putting in?

Good luck!

[z_willus_d]

Keep us posted.  Sounds interesting.  I assume you can provide winter protection if needed.  What do you plan on putting in?

Hi Mark, I have the following to choose from (all 4-winds Nursery stock): 2 Holiday, 2 Lamb Hass, 1 Sir Prize, 1 Stewart, and 1 Pinkerton.  Stewart and Sir Prize are likely the most cold-hardy, but they're also Type-B, which suggests they should be interspersed with the A-Types.  I'm also trying to find appropriate rootstock seeds to graft a local Duke tree's budwood (from Yuba) this season, but I've not yet found a source for good rootstock seeds (or saplings).  I'd plant the Duke fully exposed in the front yard, as it think the mature trees in Yuba are quite beautiful, giant and supposedly cold hardy (see pics).  There are a number of other varieties I'd like to try, but what's obtainable from local nurseries is quite limited.  I need to improve my grafting process and skills to join in on the real fun.

For frost/cold protection, I'm planning to line the branches with C7/C9 lights, cover on the freeze nights, and also drop a water filled 55-gallon barrels in between each of the trees for thermal buffer.  I don't have room on the property for a usable greenhouse.

[Mark in Texas]

Is that a Duke avocado tree?  It's not only huge but gorgeous.

Great choices.  That's a lot of work regarding winter protection.   Stewart would not need to be protected once it's thick and woody.

[z_willus_d]

Is that a Duke avocado tree?  It's not only huge but gorgeous.

Yes, two beautiful, soulful Duke Avocado trees growing together in an old, abandoned train-station "garden."  I'm told they are incredibly hard to get a graft to take.  I'd love to have a couple of these growing in my front-yard.  That's a long term goal.

Great choices.  That's a lot of work regarding winter protection.   Stewart would not need to be protected once it's thick and woody.

I know that protecting the trees from wind and cold will be my primary challenge.  The past several Winters have been particularly mild in Northern CA, however this Winter has reminded me of the unpredictability of weather.  We had a week or two in the mid-70's (F)/ Lows in the mid-50's before getting hit with a week long freeze down to 18F, and then another;  Hail, all of it.  Given this, my large consternation is over the counter goals of creating a big, woody tree to help protect against the elements as opposed to the John Yonemoto process that seeks to achieve the opposite by limiting tap roots to reduce girth and vigor in the tree's trunk/branches as well as using supports -- all to focus energy to fruiting.  Will those greenhouse concepts work outdoors in a "pot-culture?"