Phyton 35, systemic copper sulfate. Silver Bullet including Phytophthor control

[Mark in Texas]

Phyton 35, labeled for consumables, sounds too good to be true.  I have several avocado trees that according to a local visual inspection by a disease pathologist is either canker (fungus) or phomopsis. Will send a tissue sample off to TX A & M, College Station, for analysis.  Until then I ordered a gallon of Phyton 35.  Not cheap, $249 shipped, but I've already lost my Sharwil and don't want to lose my Holiday, Ardith, Gwen, Oro Negro, Sir Prize, Reed or Pinkerton, mangos, etc.  This product has been used in Mexico and other countries for 30 years.  The broad spectrum curative and preventative of a systemic copper sulfate is incredible.

Pathogens controlled:

    Botrytis
    Downy Mildew
    Erwinia
    Powdery Mildew
    Xanthomonas
    Pseudomonas
    Alternaria
    Rus
    Volutella
    Cercospora
    Phytophthora
    Bacterial Blight
    Colletotrichum
    Cylindrocladium
    Crown Gall
    Scab
    Black Spot
    Anthracnose
    Diplodia
    Cedar Apple Rust
    Entomosporium
    Verticillium
    Phomopsis
    Dothistroma
    Apple Scab
    Fireblight
    Rhizoctonia
    Pythium
    Leaf Spot
    Pseudomonas Blight
    Angular Leaf Spot
    Gray Mold
    Black rot
    Alternaria Blight
    Leaf Scorch
    Bacterial Spot
    Bacterial Speck
    Bacterial Wilt
    Early Blight
    Late Blight
    Septoria Leaf Spot

I asked a tech if it's good for citrus greening control, HLB, and he said it hadn't been field tested so there's no data.  It has been used for control of a nasty bacterial disease wiping out precious old live oaks here in Texas and red oaks - Live Oak Wilt Disease.

Any one have any experience with Phyton 35 or 27?

http://phytoncorp.com/products-overview/#



Mark

[Cookie Monster]

Interesting. It's a little stronger than what I would normally use (warning label and re-entry of 48 hours) and not NOP approved, but could be useful in areas where the NOP products aren't effective.

[Mark in Texas]

Interesting. It's a little stronger than what I would normally use (warning label and re-entry of 48 hours) and not NOP approved, but could be useful in areas where the NOP products aren't effective.

The beauty of this product is it's systemic.  FAQ page is really useful. I asked the tech if it was certified organic and he said no. Then I asked "why not" and what is the certification process.  In a nutshell it's expensive and a royal PITA.  The EPA has a list of items or chemicals as red flags and if the product submitted gets a check mark for any on their list it's automatically denied.  Love to get my hands on that list. 

I know I'm not about to jeopardize my tropical fruits.  He said it would be a great rotational product for my vineyard too.

[Cookie Monster]

OK. Yah, I do see your logic. And, it does look relatively benign with a copper equivalency of 5%. It's systemic, but does that just mean that the fruit have a higher copper content? I tend to prefer caution labels, given my location in a residential area (would hate for the wind to blow the spray into the neighbor's back yard :-).

Looks like it could be something for Alex / Squam to look at for his inland orchard.

Interesting. It's a little stronger than what I would normally use (warning label and re-entry of 48 hours) and not NOP approved, but could be useful in areas where the NOP products aren't effective.

The beauty of this product is it's systemic.  FAQ page is really useful. I asked the tech if it was certified organic and he said no. Then I asked "why not" and what is the certification process.  In a nutshell it's expensive and a royal PITA.  The EPA has a list of items or chemicals as red flags and if the product submitted gets a check mark for any on their list it's automatically denied.  Love to get my hands on that list. 

I know I'm not about to jeopardize my tropical fruits.  He said it would be a great rotational product for my vineyard too.

[EvilFruit]

The active ingredient is Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate.

Have you tried this product before ?.  Could be used as fungicide, maybe ?!!

http://www.amazon.com/Copper-Sulfate-Pentahydrate-Pounds-Dissolve/dp/B005H2OQY2

[Mark in Texas]

The active ingredient is Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate.

Have you tried this product before ?.  Could be used as fungicide, maybe ?!!

http://www.amazon.com/Copper-Sulfate-Pentahydrate-Pounds-Dissolve/dp/B005H2OQY2

Like I wrote in my first post, no, haven't tried it yet.  It is a very broad spectrum fungicide and bactericide.  Was going to use a very expensive strobin like Abound until I found this.

[Cookie Monster]

We should start a fungus / bacteria fighter post where forum members discuss which products they use and whether they work or not.

I don't think Phyton 35 is "just" copper sulfate; I think there must be something in the inerts that causes it to be readily absorbed by the plant, which is interesting, because copper is normally phytotoxic when absorbed.

Copper sulfate (including pentahydrate) seems to be on the list of NOP approved substances.

I just ordered product called Double Nickel 55. It's labeled for anthracnose and scab on mango (and even sigatoka on banana). Going to give it a whirl. OMRI listed, caution label, and 4 hour reentry.

[Mark in Texas]

Interesting why they would put a Caution label on it, but that's just what the EPA does. 

All of this stuff is expensive.  Got a price of $157 for 5 lbs. on the Nickel and here's the rate I'd be using for greenhouse control. Pricey when you have to repeatedly use it.

Nurseries, greenhouses, shadehouses, and ornamental plants
Spray application: Mix 0.25 to 3 pounds of Double Nickel 55 per
100 gallons of water and apply as a foliar spray of sufficient volume
to wet the entire plant with minimal runoff. Begin preventative
applications at plant emergence and repeat every 3-28 days as
needed (every 3-7 days if disease pressure is high or environmental
conditions are highly favorable to disease outbreak, 10-28 days
under low pressure or less conducive conditions).

Got my Phyton in yesterday. Will give it a shot today.

Yeah, would be nice to have a FAQ regarding fungicides and/or bactericides.

[Cookie Monster]

Yah. I'm able to cover about 30 mango trees (a mix of trees between 4 and 10+ years old) plus a few others with around 4 gallons of mix (using the mister), and the plan is to use it as a rotation spray. So, the 5 pounds would probably last me a couple of seasons.

The nice thing about the mister is that I can cover a tree without runoff due to the really fine mist, so a gallon goes a lot further.

Now that I got my soil test results with a recommendation to add 2 - 3 pounds of copper per acre, I'm switching from cueva (1.8% copper) to Nordox 75 (> 80% copper). I'm going to try the nordox every 3 weeks and then rotate biofungicides on the other weeks.

Between fungicides, sulfur, and k-mag / k-sulfate, it probably runs me > $600 a year for my 1/2 acre orchard. But, I'd spend more than that if I had to buy the fruit. The mango dealers here are up to $3 / pound :-).

Interesting why they would put a Caution label on it, but that's just what the EPA does.

All of this stuff is expensive.  Got a price of $157 for 5 lbs. on the Nickel and here's the rate I'd be using for greenhouse control. Pricey when you have to repeatedly use it.

Nurseries, greenhouses, shadehouses, and ornamental plants
Spray application: Mix 0.25 to 3 pounds of Double Nickel 55 per
100 gallons of water and apply as a foliar spray of sufficient volume
to wet the entire plant with minimal runoff. Begin preventative
applications at plant emergence and repeat every 3-28 days as
needed (every 3-7 days if disease pressure is high or environmental
conditions are highly favorable to disease outbreak, 10-28 days
under low pressure or less conducive conditions).

Got my Phyton in yesterday. Will give it a shot today.

Yeah, would be nice to have a FAQ regarding fungicides and/or bactericides.

[Cookie Monster]

(double post)

[Mark in Texas]

Man, I pulled a good one.  Have some kind of blight or canker on a few avocados so I sprayed with 3.5 oz/gal.  Label calls for 15-35 oz per 100 gallons. Never been good in math but can't even move a decimal point to the right place?     .35 oz or 2 tsp per gallon as a curative!  Only a teaspoon per gallon preventative.  6 hours later trying to nap realized the screw up.  Blasted them top and bottom with well water then followed up with a blast of rainwater.  They looked OK this morn, will know more within a week.

Even at $245/gallon, this spray is one helluva value. They have a new master list which expands the label to all kinds of fruit.   

[CTMIAMI]

I think there are better coppers out there. Like MasterCop , Magnabond  (lower copper active ingredients and newer technology).  Other non coppers like Abound which has tropical fruit on its label. Someone mentioned Double Nickel a biological product. I'm finding from work done recently that copper can in fact reduce the microbiology in the soil and thus  cause other problems associated with root diseases and overall low tree defenses, since there are less good microbes and fungi  in the soil.

I'm not saying not to use copper. It has a place, I'm reducing copper application in my grove and as we test more products the plan is to reduce copper by 75% from current levels. 

[Cookie Monster]

I think a lot of the avocado groves in the redlands have soil that is saturated with copper ion (a combo of many years of high use of copper fungicides and inorganic soil which doesn't bind the copper up very well), so switching to a non-copper product is a good move there. Dr Richard Campbell mentioned that Fairchild Farm (a former avocado grove) was so saturated with copper that he was unable to grow lychee there.

However, the rest of us actually have the opposite issue -- our soil is deficient in copper. My most recent lab test suggests adding 3 pounds / acre of copper. So, copper fungicides are perfect for us, since they add needed copper ion to the soil and also fight fungus. The key is getting a soil lab test.

If you're looking for a low copper product, Cueva is only 1.8%. I found that I had to use it at a slightly higher rate than suggested though in order to effectively combat anthracnose.

I think there are better coppers out there. Like MasterCop , Magnabond  (lower copper active ingredients and newer technology).  Other non coppers like Abound which has tropical fruit on its label. Someone mentioned Double Nickel a biological product. I'm finding from work done recently that copper can in fact reduce the microbiology in the soil and thus  cause other problems associated with root diseases and overall low tree defenses, since there are less good microbes and fungi  in the soil.

I'm not saying not to use copper. It has a place, I'm reducing copper application in my grove and as we test more products the plan is to reduce copper by 75% from current levels.

[Cookie Monster]

I just looked at the labels for MasterCop and MagnaBon. It looks like MagnaBon is chelated copper. I wonder if that's what they are doing to make it "systemic." The odd part is that I thought copper was phytotoxic and not to mix with chelated nutrients in the same tank. So how are they getting away with chelated copper? Interesting.

Both are Danger labels though (I think phyton's product is warning), and the copper is the same (~5% copper).

[Mark in Texas]

I need a systemic for curative action and Phyton 35 fits that bill plus a little goes a long way.  Toxicity potential must be very low. Considering I (stupidly) applied 10X the amount and there are only 2 trees showing very minor burn spots on a few leaves.

MagnaBon is the exact same chemistry as Phyton, a pentahydrate, 5% metallic vs Phyton's 5.4%.  Both products look good.  May just come down to cost/acre.

Not sure why MagnaBon gets a DANGER label and it's OMRI certified. Imagine that. 

Abound is a strobin, azoxystrobin, and could be rotated in and out with others in a IPM program.

[Cookie Monster]

HAHAHAH I didn't even notice the OMRI certification. So, phyton is probably also amenable to OMRI registration, considering it's the same chemistry. I like that. Definitely an option to consider if the caution label stuff isn't effective.

I won't use abound, due to the low half-life. Copper sticks around in the soil too, but that's a good thing, since my soil is cu deficient.

I need a systemic for curative action and Phyton 35 fits that bill plus a little goes a long way.  Toxicity potential must be very low. Considering I (stupidly) applied 10X the amount and there are only 2 trees showing very minor burn spots on a few leaves.

MagnaBon is the exact same chemistry as Phyton, a pentahydrate, 5% metallic vs Phyton's 5.4%.  Both products look good.  May just come down to cost/acre.

Not sure why MagnaBon gets a DANGER label and it's OMRI certified. Imagine that. 

Abound is a strobin, azoxystrobin, and could be rotated in and out with others in a IPM program.

[bovine421]

Very interesting good read. Reposting it in case anyone else is having anthracnose issues

[Guanabanus]

Note that anything nutritional, absorbed by any organism, moves throughout the organism (= "systemic"), in the blood or sap.

Spraying products labelled as fertilizers, with or without an adjuvant that promotes penetration, provides the plant with raw materials for use in all its parts and functions, including toughening of cell walls and other surfaces, and strengthening of systemic acquired resistance, and manufacture within the plant of plant-produced fungicides and bactericides.

Full-spectrum, balanced nutrition is best.

Calcium, Phosphite, Boron, Silicon, Sulfur, Copper, Zinc, and Manganese, are particularly useful for these internal functions.  And if any of these nutrients/fertilizers, while still on the exterior of plants, should prove to be noxious to spores or other pests, no apologies are due to the pests or to anyone else.

Advice:  Since products labelled as fertilizers don't usually come with much instruction or restrictions, and usually no safety data sheets, it is wise to study the labels and SDS of other products which contain the same declared ingredients, to follow the mixture rates and safety procedures that will keep things best for you, for the plants, and for the soil and environment.  Avoid making any commercial claims of pesticidal efficacy.

[Mark in Texas]

Very interesting good read. Reposting it in case anyone else is having anthracnose issues

 Just got 5 gals. of Magnabon CS2005, same chemistry but cheaper.  It was free from a "special" source.  What in the hell am I gonna to with all THIS!  Physan contains a surfactant (which is a must have), Magnabon does not.  I add NIS.

https://www.magnabon.com/product/magna-bon-cs-2005/

[Mark in Texas]

Note that anything nutritional, absorbed by any organism, moves throughout the organism (= "systemic"), in the blood or sap.

Spraying products labelled as fertilizers, with or without an adjuvant that promotes penetration, provides the plant with raw materials for use in all its parts and functions, including toughening of cell walls and other surfaces, and strengthening of systemic acquired resistance, and manufacture within the plant of plant-produced fungicides and bactericides.

Full-spectrum, balanced nutrition is best.

Calcium, Phosphite, Boron, Silicon, Sulfur, Copper, Zinc, and Manganese, are particularly useful for these internal functions.  And if any of these nutrients/fertilizers, while still on the exterior of plants, should prove to be noxious to spores or other pests, no apologies are due to the pests or to anyone else.

Advice:  Since products labelled as fertilizers don't usually come with much instruction or restrictions, and usually no safety data sheets, it is wise to study the labels and SDS of other products which contain the same declared ingredients, to follow the mixture rates and safety procedures that will keep things best for you, for the plants, and for the soil and environment.  Avoid making any commercial claims of pesticidal efficacy.

Hard to beat Keyplex 350DP for micros.  Hard to beat Dyna-Gro for a complete macro and micros meal, foliar or soil applied.

I blast the vineyard with a 20 gal. mix of imidacloprid, Magnabon and Dyna-Gro.  Red River NIS is my adjuvant of choice....for many years.  I go about a tsp.gallon.

[Guanabanus]

Brewer CopGuard Micronutrient is also Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate, 2 1/2-gallon jug, liquid fertilizer, sprayable.  For commercial agriculture.

[bovine421]

Thanks! Mark and Har for all the information. As a backyard grower it's not easy to find smaller quantities of these premium fungicides. With these products a little goes a long ways. I believe in just in time inventory and do want large qualities. I have found an alternative to Abound which is called Heritage CS Syngenta. It can be purchased in a smaller quantity. I have found by Phyton35 in a quantity that I can justify buying. And since I will be rotating these with other products it does not make sense to have large quantities just for a few problematic trees

Phyton35

The benefits that accrue to users are numerous and meaningful:

• Works inside and out: Gets active ingredients into the plant where disease can be stopped most effectively

• Long residual effectiveness: Provides disease-fighting efficacy with less frequent spraying

• Effective against many pathogens: In many species, including fruits, vegetables & herbs

• No visible residue: Fights disease without residue

• Warning label: Not a “Danger” label, meaning fewer use restrictions in many locations

• Cost effective in use: Pricing is designed for disease prevention rotations, in addition to curative applications

• Gentle on plants: Continues the Phyton legacy of safety on tender plant tissue and most plants in bloom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuz8vNG1JsA

https://www.seedworldusa.com/products/phyton-27-bactericide-fungicide-8-oz?variant=30205804305&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic

https://www.sunspotsupply.com/heritage-sc-fungicide.html

[Mark in Texas]

Both are safe on tender tissue.  As an example when I first got Physan I mis-read the instructions and applied like 10X too much.  I blasted the trees with well water after realizing my screw up.  Didn't hurt them.

2 tsp/gallon is all you need and I went something like 2 oz/gal.  Forgot the exact amount as it was years ago.

[bovine421]

Both are safe on tender tissue.  As an example when I first got Physan I mis-read the instructions and applied like 10X too much.  I blasted the trees with well water after realizing my screw up.  Didn't hurt them.

2 tsp/gallon is all you need and I went something like 2 oz/gal.  Forgot the exact amount as it was years ago.

After studying Keyplex bloom Pro Bloom and Dyna Gro bloom I decided to go with Dyna-Gro Bloom it has good reviews and can be shipped to my house in a 1 quart container for $20 plus shipping through Amazon

Thanks for helping me fine-tune my Mini groove

https://www.greenhousemegastore.com/dyna-gro-liquid-bloom-3-12-6

Someone did comment that the middle number is a little high and the plant won't use it but other than that it's pretty much got rave reviews,

There's another product called cal-mag that they talked about that I've research yet. It'll be just a once-a-year foliar feeding so I'm not too worried about overdoing it.

https://www.planetnatural.com/product/cal-mag-plus/

Someone mentioned that it helps prevent fruit split

[Mark in Texas]

Someone did comment that the middle number is a little high and the plant won't use it but other than that it's pretty much got rave reviews,

I've mentioned it quite a few times before.  Again, if "they say" that P produces more flowers and fruit, then the manufacturer and vendors will market it as such.  There's plenty of sucker bets out there especially when it comes to the "organic, natural, non-GMO" drills.

The issue is how much P is required to support good performance?   There's a white paper I wrote many years ago for other forums, will PM it to you as it contains "sensitive information".