The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: behlgarden on April 09, 2018, 11:40:11 AM
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Hello All Master Grafters, I know T and Inverted T bud grafting is done on citrus, roses and many other fruits and flowers, however has anyone tried T-bud graft on mangoes?
I tried T-bud graft mango recently (2 days ago), and bark was peeling quite easily. I did both chip bud and T bud grafts. I will report progress here on how it went, but wanted to know if anyone else has had success in T-Bud grafting of Mangoes.
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Yes, it's a highly successful method of grafting mangoes and the principal means of grafting mango trees at larger nurseries, such as zills hpp and excalibur. The benefit of t-budding is more scions -- half dozen or more per donor branch tip -- making it possible to graft hundreds or thousands of specimens for a particular cultivar.
My favored budding technique was inverted-T / shield budding. Leaving a partial leaf attached to the bud and enclosing in a plastic bag (to preserve humidity) and placing in shade can help rate of take. (Remove bag after 4 - 5 weeks in warmer periods, longer in colder periods). In good conditions, you can get above 90% rate of take.
Grafting to green rootstock helps ensure success. Much lower rate of take on brown rootstock (for me at least). This can mean grafting very high on older stock (on the top two growth flushes) or low on 2 - 3 month old seedlings.
If you're extra special, you come up with a magic fungicide potion that you dip your scions into before grafting.
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PS -- One of the harder aspects of shield budding mangoes is getting the bud eyes to spring, depending on your timing. If you're bud is still green after a month in warm weather (perhaps 6 weeks in cooler weather), then your graft is good and you just need to figure out a way to get the bud to spring.
Here in FL, shield budding from Oct to Dec was best for me, as bark was still slipping during this period, and the spring push is so strong, that nearly all bud eyes would begin growing on their own in April. If you're on your game and want to crank out hundreds of grafts, you plant the seeds in June. Then in Oct they are ready for budding. Then in spring you have little grafted 1 gallon trees growing. (The timing would probably be different for socal.)
If bud eyes don't spring on their own, you need to head back the rootstock, leaving only a couple of leaves above the grafted bud. You can also head back the rootstock at time of budding -- just keep an eye on the shoots that try to emerge from the rootstock (pick those off).
But if you are not grafting dozens / hundreds of trees, easiest is to just cleft or side veneer. A great way to get instant grafted trees (with high rate of success) is to graft onto seedlings when they are literally only 3 weeks sprouted (with foliage still reddish), using a cleft graft. Rate of take is high, and there is still plenty of energy in the seed to push scion growth (you don't even need to leave foliage on the rootstock, though it can be helpful to leave a couple of half-leaves on the scion and bag the whole thing).
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Yes, it's a highly successful method of grafting mangoes and the principal means of grafting mango trees at larger nurseries, such as zills hpp and excalibur. The benefit of t-budding is more scions -- half dozen or more per donor branch tip -- making it possible to graft hundreds or thousands of specimens for a particular cultivar.
My favored budding technique was inverted-T / shield budding. Leaving a partial leaf attached to the bud and enclosing in a plastic bag (to preserve humidity) and placing in shade can help rate of take. (Remove bag after 4 - 5 weeks in warmer periods, longer in colder periods). In good conditions, you can get above 90% rate of take.
Grafting to green rootstock helps ensure success. Much lower rate of take on brown rootstock (for me at least). This can mean grafting very high on older stock (on the top two growth flushes) or low on 2 - 3 month old seedlings.
If you're extra special, you come up with a magic fungicide potion that you dip your scions into before grafting.
Thanks Jeff. I am optimistic over takes, will keep you posted. my T-budding was not inverted. I opened the flaps of bark, and simply pushed down the bud, and aligned the top part of bud section to the top of T cut. wrapped with buddy tape. it was full of sap flow. We have intense heat next 3 days so I am hopeful it might get good energy flow into the bud.
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PS -- One of the harder aspects of shield budding mangoes is getting the bud eyes to spring, depending on your timing. If you're bud is still green after a month in warm weather (perhaps 6 weeks in cooler weather), then your graft is good and you just need to figure out a way to get the bud to spring.
Here in FL, shield budding from Oct to Dec was best for me, as bark was still slipping during this period, and the spring push is so strong, that nearly all bud eyes would begin growing on their own in April. If you're on your game and want to crank out hundreds of grafts, you plant the seeds in June. Then in Oct they are ready for budding. Then in spring you have little grafted 1 gallon trees growing. (The timing would probably be different for socal.)
If bud eyes don't spring on their own, you need to head back the rootstock, leaving only a couple of leaves above the grafted bud. You can also head back the rootstock at time of budding -- just keep an eye on the shoots that try to emerge from the rootstock (pick those off).
But if you are not grafting dozens / hundreds of trees, easiest is to just cleft or side veneer. A great way to get instant grafted trees (with high rate of success) is to graft onto seedlings when they are literally only 3 weeks sprouted (with foliage still reddish), using a cleft graft. Rate of take is high, and there is still plenty of energy in the seed to push scion growth (you don't even need to leave foliage on the rootstock, though it can be helpful to leave a couple of half-leaves on the scion and bag the whole thing).
I did a LZ graft on a 3 week old seedling and it was instant success. to allow energy flow via sun to leaves, I did a modified cleft/veneer where I left leaves and top part intact and went on a diagonal and about 3/4 deep into the rootstock width and about an inch long. once graft pushed I cut the head of seedling off.
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I don't think there is any difference in rate of take due to inverted vs standard shield bud. I just found that inverted was easier to insert the bud due to how the hand is positioned.
Yes, it's a highly successful method of grafting mangoes and the principal means of grafting mango trees at larger nurseries, such as zills hpp and excalibur. The benefit of t-budding is more scions -- half dozen or more per donor branch tip -- making it possible to graft hundreds or thousands of specimens for a particular cultivar.
My favored budding technique was inverted-T / shield budding. Leaving a partial leaf attached to the bud and enclosing in a plastic bag (to preserve humidity) and placing in shade can help rate of take. (Remove bag after 4 - 5 weeks in warmer periods, longer in colder periods). In good conditions, you can get above 90% rate of take.
Grafting to green rootstock helps ensure success. Much lower rate of take on brown rootstock (for me at least). This can mean grafting very high on older stock (on the top two growth flushes) or low on 2 - 3 month old seedlings.
If you're extra special, you come up with a magic fungicide potion that you dip your scions into before grafting.
Thanks Jeff. I am optimistic over takes, will keep you posted. my T-budding was not inverted. I opened the flaps of bark, and simply pushed down the bud, and aligned the top part of bud section to the top of T cut. wrapped with buddy tape. it was full of sap flow. We have intense heat next 3 days so I am hopeful it might get good energy flow into the bud.
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Nice! You could probably get good success even without leaves. The seed has enough energy store for a least 2 flushes -- the second flush being your scion.
PS -- One of the harder aspects of shield budding mangoes is getting the bud eyes to spring, depending on your timing. If you're bud is still green after a month in warm weather (perhaps 6 weeks in cooler weather), then your graft is good and you just need to figure out a way to get the bud to spring.
Here in FL, shield budding from Oct to Dec was best for me, as bark was still slipping during this period, and the spring push is so strong, that nearly all bud eyes would begin growing on their own in April. If you're on your game and want to crank out hundreds of grafts, you plant the seeds in June. Then in Oct they are ready for budding. Then in spring you have little grafted 1 gallon trees growing. (The timing would probably be different for socal.)
If bud eyes don't spring on their own, you need to head back the rootstock, leaving only a couple of leaves above the grafted bud. You can also head back the rootstock at time of budding -- just keep an eye on the shoots that try to emerge from the rootstock (pick those off).
But if you are not grafting dozens / hundreds of trees, easiest is to just cleft or side veneer. A great way to get instant grafted trees (with high rate of success) is to graft onto seedlings when they are literally only 3 weeks sprouted (with foliage still reddish), using a cleft graft. Rate of take is high, and there is still plenty of energy in the seed to push scion growth (you don't even need to leave foliage on the rootstock, though it can be helpful to leave a couple of half-leaves on the scion and bag the whole thing).
I did a LZ graft on a 3 week old seedling and it was instant success. to allow energy flow via sun to leaves, I did a modified cleft/veneer where I left leaves and top part intact and went on a diagonal and about 3/4 deep into the rootstock width and about an inch long. once graft pushed I cut the head of seedling off.
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I don't think there is any difference in rate of take due to inverted vs standard shield bud. I just found that inverted was easier to insert the bud due to how the hand is positioned.
ok, fun fact. we know that when bud has healed and not springing out, we make a horizontal cut above the bud to stop flow of sap, causing the bud to accumulate more sap and eventually push. If that theory works, then having a T would and should work better as bottom of bud is flowing sap as as it hits the top of T there is cut, it should force bud to push even better? remains to be seen. ;D ;D
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Jeff, do you remove wood from back of bud you harvest OR leave it as is?
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Generally I leave as is. I don't think it matters either way. A razor blade (eg, schick injectable) is best for those cuts.
Jeff, do you remove wood from back of bud you harvest OR leave it as is?
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ok, fun fact. we know that when bud has healed and not springing out, we make a horizontal cut above the bud to stop flow of sap, causing the bud to accumulate more sap and eventually push. If that theory works, then having a T would and should work better as bottom of bud is flowing sap as as it hits the top of T there is cut, it should force bud to push even better? remains to be seen. ;D ;D
I do that for citrus bud grafts but not for the reason you say. Sap flows downwards in the bark, so you'd be blocking the flow of sap. Water flows up through the wood layers, but cutting the bark won't stop it going up. Cutting the whole branch would do that. If anything, cutting off the sap will cause the buds above the cut to grow, like when you prepare scions for cutting.
What scoring the bark does is stop the auxin that's produced by the apical tip of the branch, which would have inhibited all the buds below it from pushing. Without the influence of the hormone, all the buds below the score would grow. Because it's not a complete cutoff, only one or a few right below will grow and the hormone will diffuse all the way around pretty soon.
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I've never tried that, but a healthy tree would bridge the gap without issue. That's why you need to really scrape away all cambium across a good section when doing air layers. I guess you could try doing an "inverted marcot" by scraping away all cambium above the graft, but it seems like that would just starve the roots and would be practically equivalent to simply snipping the rootstock just above the scion -- which does work in most cases, but it does slow down growth momentum significantly.
FYI -- Citrus buds spring far easier than mango.
I don't think there is any difference in rate of take due to inverted vs standard shield bud. I just found that inverted was easier to insert the bud due to how the hand is positioned.
ok, fun fact. we know that when bud has healed and not springing out, we make a horizontal cut above the bud to stop flow of sap, causing the bud to accumulate more sap and eventually push. If that theory works, then having a T would and should work better as bottom of bud is flowing sap as as it hits the top of T there is cut, it should force bud to push even better? remains to be seen. ;D ;D
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In mango, you can cut out the budeyes of the leaves above the scion / bud, which does help.
ok, fun fact. we know that when bud has healed and not springing out, we make a horizontal cut above the bud to stop flow of sap, causing the bud to accumulate more sap and eventually push. If that theory works, then having a T would and should work better as bottom of bud is flowing sap as as it hits the top of T there is cut, it should force bud to push even better? remains to be seen. ;D ;D
I do that for citrus bud grafts but not for the reason you say. Sap flows downwards in the bark, so you'd be blocking the flow of sap. Water flows up through the wood layers, but cutting the bark won't stop it going up. Cutting the whole branch would do that. If anything, cutting off the sap will cause the buds above the cut to grow, like when you prepare scions for cutting.
What scoring the bark does is stop the auxin that's produced by the apical tip of the branch, which would have inhibited all the buds below it from pushing. Without the influence of the hormone, all the buds below the score would grow. Because it's not a complete cutoff, only one or a few right below will grow and the hormone will diffuse all the way around pretty soon.
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I just ordered these, appears super sharp surgical grade, https://www.amazon.com/Derma-Safe-Folding-Utility-10-pack-Survival/dp/B00YAORKRI/ref=pd_sbs_468_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00YAORKFU&pd_rd_r=BYY0C0M87N980M98YMPF&pd_rd_w=d78yg&pd_rd_wg=B8Wpd&refRID=BYY0C0M87N980M98YMPF&th=1#customerReviews (https://www.amazon.com/Derma-Safe-Folding-Utility-10-pack-Survival/dp/B00YAORKRI/ref=pd_sbs_468_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00YAORKFU&pd_rd_r=BYY0C0M87N980M98YMPF&pd_rd_w=d78yg&pd_rd_wg=B8Wpd&refRID=BYY0C0M87N980M98YMPF&th=1#customerReviews)
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Why not do what Mark Texas does and get the Schick injector blade mounted on Xacto handle?
I just use my regular grafting knife with the bark lifter head.
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Why not do what Mark Texas does and get the Schick injector blade mounted on Xacto handle?
I just use my regular grafting knife with the bark lifter head.
Those handles are rounded and might slip or curve out and I could get potential cut. Rectangle handle might be better option. As long as blades are razor sharp I am good. For bud grafting, I tried two other knives, after sharpening to death they still wont glide like i would like to. Razor blade sound better idea.
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But these ones have small handles that look like they're harder to control.
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But these ones have small handles that look like they're harder to control.
yes but have finger recess curved so it might be ok. I will test them once I get them. Are Xacto blades razor blades?
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what about these kinds? https://www.amazon.com/PenBlade-Stainless-Premium-Retractable-Straight/dp/B0109326CM/ref=sr_1_20_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1523310165&sr=8-20-spons&keywords=Xacto+handle&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/PenBlade-Stainless-Premium-Retractable-Straight/dp/B0109326CM/ref=sr_1_20_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1523310165&sr=8-20-spons&keywords=Xacto+handle&psc=1)
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This is exactly what I use. Pretty popular grafting setup. Have never injured myself in probably a decade of use and somewhere around a thousand grafts.
Why not do what Mark Texas does and get the Schick injector blade mounted on Xacto handle?
I just use my regular grafting knife with the bark lifter head.
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This is exactly what I use. Pretty popular grafting setup. Have never injured myself in probably a decade of use and somewhere around a thousand grafts.
Why not do what Mark Texas does and get the Schick injector blade mounted on Xacto handle?
I just use my regular grafting knife with the bark lifter head.
You convinced me ;D ;D. ordered Xacto X5282 Basic Knife Set and Schick injector blade. hope shick blade fit perfectly into Xacto holders.
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Jeff, do you use any hormone when you do bud grafting?
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No hormones used.
I forget the model number of the handle that fits those schick blades.
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This https://www.amazon.com/Excel-Blades-Hobby-Safety-American/dp/B0006NAU60/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1523319196&sr=8-4&keywords=excel%2Bknife&th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Excel-Blades-Hobby-Safety-American/dp/B0006NAU60/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1523319196&sr=8-4&keywords=excel%2Bknife&th=1)
I believe it's the right one for the Schick injector blade
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K2 sounds right.
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Here is my another attempt, inverted T this time. Looks ok?
(https://s7.postimg.cc/ds6gazcqf/20180409_182617.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ds6gazcqf/)
(https://s7.postimg.cc/4ke7u9q8n/20180409_182856.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4ke7u9q8n/)
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If possible, try to do it on pure green rootstock sections towards the top. Takes are a harder on brown wood.
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Ok. Will keep in mind. This was not think but on it's way to turning dark wood.
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Great thread Behl and thanks for all the tips Jeff. I’m going to try some bud grafts this year.
Simon
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Here is guava Jeff. It's a patch bud graft on green.
(https://s7.postimg.cc/ltza6gsjr/20180409_185902.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ltza6gsjr/)
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I would go even higher still to pure green bark. Let us know if they take.
Here is guava Jeff. It's a patch bud graft on green.
(https://s7.postimg.cc/ltza6gsjr/20180409_185902.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ltza6gsjr/)
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I will keep you posted. I have seen videos of folks doing patch grafting on mature wood. it will be interesting to see how mine turn out. stay tuned.
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They can and do take on mature wood. It's just that rate of take is lower.
I will keep you posted. I have seen videos of folks doing patch grafting on mature wood. it will be interesting to see how mine turn out. stay tuned.
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understood. probably it might have to do with moisture getting into the wound, rough wood is hard to seal vs smooth green wood.
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Why not do what Mark Texas does and get the Schick injector blade mounted on Xacto handle?
I just use my regular grafting knife with the bark lifter head.
Those handles are rounded and might slip or curve out and I could get potential cut. Rectangle handle might be better option. As long as blades are razor sharp I am good. For bud grafting, I tried two other knives, after sharpening to death they still wont glide like i would like to. Razor blade sound better idea.
Schick is the only way to go unless you're working with tough material then the blade bends too easily. You get ultra clean tissue cuts as opposed to the getting some tissue burs with a knife blade and when you feel the need for a new sharp edge, you just flip the blade in the handle.
I've been a grafting fool lately doing avocados, sugar apples and cherimoyas, cleft and side veneer. Everything is pushing.
I love t-bud. Usually get 100% takes. I mean how can you mess up a good cambium match with t-bud?
(https://s18.postimg.cc/97il0r29x/Grafts_Atis_Pierce.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/97il0r29x/)
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Two t-buds, separated by about an inch or so. Both took. I quit using the vinyl tape to cinch up tight. Rubber band and/or clothes pin is much easier to work with.
(https://s18.postimg.cc/6rld0v72t/Citrus_Cocktail_Tree.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6rld0v72t/)
Took one month to shoot the moon.
(https://s18.postimg.cc/6svatzyj9/Cocktail_Citrus_Tree_May17.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6svatzyj9/)
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Nice Mark. I got one of my citrus pushing, I have 8 buds stacked 3 inches apart. I am hoping all will push eventually. time will tell.
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Here is my another attempt, inverted T this time. Looks ok?
(https://s7.postimg.cc/ds6gazcqf/20180409_182617.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ds6gazcqf/)
What bothers me is the bottom of the flap is open. When wrapped properly the bud chip should sit there completely wrapped up like a baby in a blanket like my first photo above shows. Only the bud should be showing.
(https://s18.postimg.cc/6hduhbaed/cocktail_Tree_May5_3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6hduhbaed/)
(https://s18.postimg.cc/g1xh48a11/cocktail_Tree_May5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/g1xh48a11/)
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picture was taken without wrapping. the bark was green but a bit thick. so when I wrapped it, I flapped it over the base of bud, it did not get 100% coverage because size of bud vs size of rootstock stem, which was thin. but I got very sharp clean cut on bud and clear contact with cambium.
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Nice Mark. I got one of my citrus pushing, I have 8 buds stacked 3 inches apart. I am hoping all will push eventually. time will tell.
Thanks, and good luck to you.
Kicker is this fine cocktail tree got frozen back leaving the "tender" key lime pushing like a mofo now. Go figure. That's what's weird about that 18F hit. Stuff that should have made it didn't. "Tender" stuff that shouldn't have made it did - Gwen, Reed avocados, key lime. I had multiple sticks of Hamlin orange, Persian limes and Variegated Eureka Pink lemon on it. All froze back probably because they were still young. Lemon bloomed quickly, held a few clutches of lemons. I know it's not mango but the grafting principle is the same.
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picture was taken without wrapping. the bark was green but a bit thick. so when I wrapped it, I flapped it over the base of bud, it did not get 100% coverage because size of bud vs size of rootstock stem, which was thin. but I got very sharp clean cut on bud and clear contact with cambium.
Got it!
I tried t-bud on mango. Bark was tough, kinda early in the spring, never did get the bark to slip. Finally did cleft on young but mature shoots.
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right now bark is slipping very well in mangoes for my location, that is why I am tempted to try new things.
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To complete your Schick blades and Excel holder combo, Carlos has another tool to complement your outfit: small leather strop; with it, your blades can last a "very long time"...
Here's his 1 minute video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA1wSfLzGBI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA1wSfLzGBI)
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It's not necessary to completely cover the bud. You can also use chip budding with similar success rate. I did like using rubber bands to cover the buds (just leaving a hole for the bud eye).
Citrus grafting / budding is quite a bit easier than mango grafting / budding.
Green (or red-stage) mango rootstock has "less differentiated cambium" (I'm probably butchering that, but that's the gist of what Har told me). So, in effect, you get more cambium with greener mango rootstock.
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It's not necessary to completely cover the bud.
here in CA bud will dry-out if not 100% covered with Buddy tape due to humidity that is in teens every time we go above 85-90 degrees.
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It's not necessary to completely cover the bud.
here in CA bud will dry-out if not 100% covered with Buddy tape due to humidity that is in teens every time we go above 85-90 degrees.
Yep, especially true here in AZ
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I mean covered by the bark -- as was discussed in a previous post. They will dry out here too if not covered by plastic.
It's not necessary to completely cover the bud.
here in CA bud will dry-out if not 100% covered with Buddy tape due to humidity that is in teens every time we go above 85-90 degrees.
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I mean covered by the bark -- as was discussed in a previous post. They will dry out here too if not covered by plastic.
It's not necessary to completely cover the bud.
here in CA bud will dry-out if not 100% covered with Buddy tape due to humidity that is in teens every time we go above 85-90 degrees.
that was my understanding too. infact I believe if we align bark of bud to bark of rootstock, you get way better connection, when I do veneer or cleft, I always look to align bark on one side, other side may or may not align. but that is for cambium contact. In Bud graft, its 100% cambium contact.
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X-Acto #2.
Break one injector blade in half (wear safety glasses!), insert in X-Acto handle,, then insert whole blade. With this double thickness of injector blade, the handle tightens down well.
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Sapflow in the cambium is downward, carrying glucose from photosynthesis in the leaves and green bark.
On the other hand, I assume that the sapflow in the less-differentiated tissue of the extremely young plants that Jeff mentions, is mostly upward, as the leaves have not yet begun to work.
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Thank you for all the tips here. I got X-Acto # 2 with Shick blades as recommended. What a difference! Dang, that thing slices clean like butter and your fingers would be budded out too if not careful. This will give me more confidence in bud grafting now.
last question, what is recommended protection for fingers? there is always potential for a bad cut of fingers. I want to have some insurance.
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what is recommended protection for fingers? there is always potential for a bad cut of fingers. I want to have some insurance.
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Thank you for all the tips here. I got X-Acto # 2 with Shick blades as recommended. What a difference! Dang, that thing slices clean like butter and your fingers would be budded out too if not careful. This will give me more confidence in bud grafting now.
last question, what is recommended protection for fingers? there is always potential for a bad cut of fingers. I want to have some insurance.
I got one of those xacto knives and the schick blades. Definitely cut away from yourself when cutting the rootstocks.
Amazon sells "cut resistant" level 5 gloves if you are really wild with the knife. They look like they would work well. Lots of brands make them.
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I think your success will improve with a cleaner cut. Control is the issue with me. I recently grafted some annona, cleft grafts. Tried something new - this time I laid the scion stick on the granite counter top and with the other hand positioned the Schick blade over it making sure it was perfectly horizontal to the granite and pulled the scion thru the blade. Flipped the now angled cleft type scion and repeated the motion. Got a perfect match and they're pushing.
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Hey Behl, any luck on your bud grafts?
I just put two bud grafts on a tree at Brads orchard. It’s more like shield/veneer bud graft and I put it on newer red, non hardened wood so I’m skeptical it will take but I’m hopeful it will. The wind has been blowing crazy at his place and the trees were flexing a lot in the wind. Here’s a picture before I wrapped it.
(https://s9.postimg.cc/m65hy3t8r/E7_B6_C77_B-2_FB0-4535-9_DDA-8_A4159_D81_FC6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/m65hy3t8r/)
Simon
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Looks like a chip bud. I've had good success with those. Let us know how it goes. If you don't succeed the first time around, keep trying. You'll get it eventually.
Hey Behl, any luck on your bud grafts?
I just put two bud grafts on a tree at Brads orchard. It’s more like shield/veneer bud graft and I put it on newer red, non hardened wood so I’m skeptical it will take but I’m hopeful it will. The wind has been blowing crazy at his place and the trees were flexing a lot in the wind. Here’s a picture before I wrapped it.
(https://s9.postimg.cc/m65hy3t8r/E7_B6_C77_B-2_FB0-4535-9_DDA-8_A4159_D81_FC6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/m65hy3t8r/)
Simon
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Out of 10 plus bud grafts 3 or 4 looks like failed. Rest are green. Same time my clefts have pushed.
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Thanks Jeff, I accidentally called it a shield bud because it’s shaped like a shield but I see it’s a chip bud now. This is my first bud graft for Mango but I’ve had plenty of success on citrus.
Anyone know if success rate is higher with hardened fresh green wood or with reddish new growth like in my picture?
Behl, that’s pretty good if some are still green. 10 buds would have been about two cleft grafts. If you get more than two takes, it’s a success.
Simon
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(https://s9.postimg.cc/6t4anzggr/20180512_202752.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6t4anzggr/)
I should have cut away from the root stock last week.
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Yep, that's one of the main issues of budding on mango -- getting the bud eyes to spring. Cleft and veneer are better. Budding is only used when one is trying to graft commercial quantities.
Out of 10 plus bud grafts 3 or 4 looks like failed. Rest are green. Same time my clefts have pushed.
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Yep, that's one of the main issues of budding on mango -- getting the bud eyes to spring. Cleft and veneer are better. Budding is only used when one is trying to graft commercial quantities.
Out of 10 plus bud grafts 3 or 4 looks like failed. Rest are green. Same time my clefts have pushed.
couldn't agree more. also note that I got 14 out of 15 citrus grafts that took and have grown over 6 inches, which 12 out of 12 bud grafts are still in sleep. I will probably not do bud grafts going forward unless there is absolute need for it.
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The only two times I seriously cut myself while propagating was while I was cutting away from my body, but not away from one of my fingers.
I normally cut towards my body, but with my thumb and wrist flexed in a curve.
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couldn't agree more. also note that I got 14 out of 15 citrus grafts that took and have grown over 6 inches, which 12 out of 12 bud grafts are still in sleep. I will probably not do bud grafts going forward unless there is absolute need for it.
Nice job. Been t-budding citrus since the 80's. My favorite, no-brainer go-to for citrus. I had citrus grafts last year go from a bud to 4' in 3 months last year.
Choice of wood is important using the previous push, not the current one.
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I’ve had some really successful bid graftsbin citrus, but the ones that fail all have mold/yeast on them at 3 weeks and never grow.
I’ve found the most reliable for me are traditional grafts (veneer is my got to). Nearly 100% take on all citrus so far except for limes (0%, 0/4).
Any tips on how to minimize yeast/mold? I had some fungus on some of my fig cuttings as well, and I got a recommendation to wash them in bleach solution before wrapping them.
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I’ve performed many successful bud grafts on Citrus and had several failures but I’ve never seen yeast or mold on the failed bud citrus grafts.
Was your source wood from CCPP or did your rootstocks have mealybug/aphids/scale or sooty mold on it? Maybe you can try prepping your budwood and rootstock branches by spraying with copper soap before grafting and wrapping your scions. I spray copper soap on any mango scions that look suspicious and then dry off with a paper towel before wrapping with parafilm or buddy tape.
Simon
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I’ve had some really successful bid graftsbin citrus, but the ones that fail all have mold/yeast on them at 3 weeks and never grow.
I’ve found the most reliable for me are traditional grafts (veneer is my got to). Nearly 100% take on all citrus so far except for limes (0%, 0/4).
Any tips on how to minimize yeast/mold? I had some fungus on some of my fig cuttings as well, and I got a recommendation to wash them in bleach solution before wrapping them.
30 minute soak in Magnabon CS2005 1.5 tsp/gallon. Hand dry, wrap.
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Thanks for the advice. I bought some of the product you mentioned.
Simon- I received the wood from ccpp. After 3 weeks there was white semisolid growth on some of the buds and these ones never pushed. I saw similar textured stuff on fig cuttings I had this past winter and those I identified as mold.
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ok here is my report. still quite a few green buds on citrus and mangoes and no takes yet, same time clefts and veneers have pushed hard. I think buds need more stable heat which is lacking for us, we go on a roller coaster and I have been hitting lows under 50 almost daily. this time around we should be near 60 min.
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Hey Behl, have you tried to prune back the apical branches? I do that to my citrus bud grafts to re direct the energy. If they’re still green, hopefully they will push once the weather warms up. There’s another 1-2 weeks of cool cloudy weather in the forecast. May grey followed by June gloom.
Simon
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I know, it sucks. my mangoes have bloomed 3 to 4 times already and blooms dried off due to PM
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I know, it sucks. my mangoes have bloomed 3 to 4 times already and blooms dried off due to PM
There is no reason to have such issues. Apply a fungicide like Pristine or copper like Magnabon CS2005 if you're of the organic ilk. If you don't add a surfactant you're just pissin' in the wind.
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I just put two bud grafts on a tree at Brads orchard. It’s more like shield/veneer bud graft and I put it on newer red, non hardened wood so I’m skeptical it will take but I’m hopeful it will. The wind has been blowing crazy at his place and the trees were flexing a lot in the wind. Here’s a picture before I wrapped it.
(https://s9.postimg.cc/m65hy3t8r/E7_B6_C77_B-2_FB0-4535-9_DDA-8_A4159_D81_FC6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/m65hy3t8r/)
Simon
[/quote]
Simon, can you update the chip buds that you did, when you have the time, please.
It has been about a month I did chip bud grafts. I took off the parafilm today. It looks like I have about 50% of the buds still green
I pinched off the top tip growth
I also have some side new growths. Should I take off all of it to force the buds to growth?
What is the best thing to do to force the buds?
(https://s33.postimg.cc/tnd4z2bjf/8_F211_F1_C-101_F-4_CF0-_B6_B0-06_C8_C9_D3_CD3_D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/tnd4z2bjf/)
(https://s33.postimg.cc/ym0ndln23/DFFB3202-_BDDC-4064-9936-99_CC5204461_F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ym0ndln23/)
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(https://s33.postimg.cc/qe3b6ikl7/43_E3706_E-4167-4_B93-_A905-_C8_AB78_BC1_F01.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/qe3b6ikl7/)
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I just put two bud grafts on a tree at Brads orchard. It’s more like shield/veneer bud graft and I put it on newer red, non hardened wood so I’m skeptical it will take but I’m hopeful it will. The wind has been blowing crazy at his place and the trees were flexing a lot in the wind. Here’s a picture before I wrapped it.
(https://s9.postimg.cc/m65hy3t8r/E7_B6_C77_B-2_FB0-4535-9_DDA-8_A4159_D81_FC6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/m65hy3t8r/)
I'd be putting some kind of clamp on to keep that thing stationery. Any little movement or friction between your rootstock and chip is gonna tear any tissue connection/callousing that is or was going on. I am using a thick rubber band and/or clothespins with much success to really clamp down on the union, no matter what the technique is. I remove them about 14-21 days after I do the graft.
Just T-bud grafted 5 Persian lime scions to an older Meyer lemon tree. I first wrap with parafilm/buddy tape and then apply the clamps on each side of the scion bud/node. The flaps close over nicely, wrap around the sliver holding the dormant bud. If I was doing mango I'd choose a rootstock branch no thicker than 1/2". I chose "rootstock" branches 3/8" thick. Bark is slipping really clean and easy now.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/i3stajcst/Persian_Lime_Grafts_June13.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/i3stajcst/)
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Hi Mark, if you are using buddy tape why do you need the cloths pins???
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update on mine,
three are green, rest friend. I think it has more to do with weird weather than me or buds. we kept hitting log to mid 40's after I grafted when we were above 60's night temps. we are getting wild swings in temps. will post pic once it pushes.
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Hi Mark, if you are using buddy tape why do you need the cloths pins???
Buddy tape and parafilm do not have near enough strength to clamp well on most situations. They break too easily. I have folded parafilm in half or twisted it into a rope but trust me, using a rubber band stretched real tight as you wrap around the union or some kind of clamp insures excellent cambium contact.
Buddy tape or parafilm is used is to insure the scion doesn't dry out.
Here's a Pineapple Pleasure stick on a young, green turpentine shoot. (Mallika froze back to the ground). Note the clothespin still on it. Grafted May 29.
I don't like doing green grafts but since the freeze nailed almost everything I'm desperate and use whatever I can get. Am doing green on green citrus and avocado grafts too. Most are taking.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/qml3gzwal/Pineapple_Pleasure_June14.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/qml3gzwal/)
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Hi Mark, if you are using buddy tape why do you need the cloths pins???
Buddy tape and parafilm do not have near enough strength to clamp well on most situations. They break too easily. I have folded parafilm in half or twisted it into a rope but trust me, using a rubber band stretched real tight as you wrap around the union or some kind of clamp insures excellent cambium contact.
Buddy tape or parafilm is used is to insure the scion doesn't dry out.
Here's a Pineapple Pleasure stick on a young, green turpentine shoot. (Mallika froze back to the ground). Note the clothespin still on it. Grafted May 29.
I don't like doing green grafts but since the freeze nailed almost everything I'm desperate and use whatever I can get. Am doing green on green citrus and avocado grafts too. Most are taking.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/qml3gzwal/Pineapple_Pleasure_June14.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/qml3gzwal/)
Mark, try folding buddy tape in half length wise, then stretch and wrap, see how tightly it wraps the union. 90% grafts on all fruit types I use exclusively this method. Only time I would use nursery tape to tightly wrap is if scion if too fat, over 3/8" or 1/2"
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I don't like doing green grafts but since the freeze nailed almost everything I'm desperate and use whatever I can get. Am doing green on green citrus and avocado grafts too. Most are taking.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/qml3gzwal/Pineapple_Pleasure_June14.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/qml3gzwal/)
When you do green on green citrus what kind of graft do you do? Any advice on that would be most appreciated.
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green on green, best is cleft for me.
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I’m a big fan of modified cleft (off center bisecting cut to Match scion width) or even better veneer graft. I seem to have the most look with veneer grafts as I seem to have really good control over peeling/cutting back a wedge of tissue that matches the width of my scion.
Have lots of citrus grafts pushing now. The ones I did in March took about 2 months to push, but the recent ones have pushed in 3 weeks.
Citrus grafts from scions do much better in terms of growth vs bud grafts.
K
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I agree with you, buds are thud for me.
Also noted that on Citrus, mandarins got 100% takes on eureka lemon graft (20 out of 20) and same mandarin grafts on golden nugget tree I got 2 out of 15.
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Same, on eureka lemon interstices from Home Depot I have > 90% take on mandarins, 100% sweet and blood oranges, 100% on Mediterranean lemons, a whopping 0% 0/8) on traditional limes, and 75% onspecialtty citrus (finger lime, orangequat, tangor and tangelos).
More than 100 grafts total, mosty veneer graft.
I spoke with Rock at ccpp because I was surprised at how dismally poor my line grafting went and he said he was unaware of any incompatibility between lime scion and lemon stock.
I did another set of grafts last week so we’ll see.
K
As for mangos, I haven’t tried bud grafting but July/August was lucky for me last year. >90% take on veneer grafts with scion covered with foil for 3 weeks. I did use a rubber band last year and parafilm but have transitioned to buddy tape and no rubber band this year (for citrus).
I did some mango grafting about 2 months ago but no take absolutely - it was when trees were about to go in the ground so it wasn’t a good timing for the trees in any case although the weather was warm Enough for a brief period of time.
Furthermore, for bid grafting, I believe Carlos had a video on... reverse bark grafting? I forget what he called it but he inverted the bark graft and I think the purpose was to force maturity or flowering on the rootstock or graft. Ultimately the distal/superior portion failed but I thought it was neat. Has anyone had success with this? I know I’ve seen JFs mantequilla avocado that he girdled and got to fruit early but seems like that variety is precocious.
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If you want to break the dormancy of the grafted bud, cut the stem above then on the bud apply a quality kaki paste (most of them don't have the homorne properly mixed into the paste thus the failure to work)
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I have folded parafilm in half or twisted it into a rope but trust me, using a rubber band stretched real tight as you wrap around the union or some kind of clamp insures excellent cambium contact.
Mark, try folding buddy tape in half length wise, then stretch and wrap, see how tightly it wraps the union. 90% grafts on all fruit types I use exclusively this method. Only time I would use nursery tape to tightly wrap is if scion if too fat, over 3/8" or 1/2"
I do and said so. :D But there are times when I "feel" I need to really clamp down.
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When you do green on green citrus what kind of graft do you do? Any advice on that would be most appreciated.
Cleft. Here's Hamlin orange on a mature key lime tree. Green on green, cleft. If my wood has lignified I will do veneer, cleft, bark, or my fave - T-bud. All depends.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/uil3r3z7h/Hamlinorange_June15.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/uil3r3z7h/)
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If you want to break the dormancy of the grafted bud, cut the stem above then on the bud apply a quality kaki paste (most of them don't have the homorne properly mixed into the paste thus the failure to work)
What you're doing is messing with apical dominance or redistributing the auxins that collect in the terminal point, top most part of the tree and branches and focus on the dormant bud. If your tree is small and rather supple, cut the trunk in half or just bend the main trunk/rootstock down and tie it to the pot so that the graft is higher. I usually wait a couple of weeks to do that so the graft has some time to callous over.
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[/quote]
What you're doing is messing with apical dominance or redistributing the auxins that collect in the terminal point, top most part of the tree and branches and focus on the dormant bud. If your tree is small and rather supple, cut the trunk in half or just bend the main trunk/rootstock down and tie it to the pot so that the graft is higher. I usually wait a couple of weeks to do that so the graft has some time to callous over.
[/quote]
Yes you need to cut the tree once the bud breaks through. It's not about auxins messing around. Cytokines are responsible to break dormancy and mangoes respond well to them.
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Lebmung, is there any brand of kaki paste you recommend? Anything that can be found on Amazon? Thanks!
Simon
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Lebmung, is there any brand of kaki paste you recommend? Anything that can be found on Amazon? Thanks!
Simon
It's called keiki paste. Doubt if kaki will return anything on a search. I used to use it on phalaenopsis orchids. Should be available from orchid supply vendors or make it yourself - https://www.ebay.com/gds/How-to-Make-Keiki-Paste-/10000000205263270/g.html (https://www.ebay.com/gds/How-to-Make-Keiki-Paste-/10000000205263270/g.html)
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Yes you need to cut the tree once the bud breaks through. It's not about auxins messing around. Cytokines are responsible to break dormancy and mangoes respond well to them.
Correction noted. Next time I'll be more or less ghetto and use the term "ho-moans". :D
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Am grafting Aggie certified disease citrus varieties this morn. Guy had a lot left over, gifted it to me. Aggies are gotten pretty damn greedy when it comes to selling scions:
3. Citrus budwood shall be ordered based on the NUMBER OF BUDS required. A minimum of 10 buds per variety for each order is required.
4. The schedule of charges for sale of budwood is as follows: (Subject to Change)
a. Buds: $2.50 per BUD
b. Shipping: $35.00 (Charges may vary based on order size)
One of the Marrs orange sticks has 8 buds on it, shysteburgers!
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Thanks for the information Mark! I was wondering if there is a specific brand that lebmung uses because I want to induce the bud to push and not grow roots. When I was doing plant research, I used to make my own agarose plates with different concentrations of hormones and the ratios of the hormones would determine if I would induce roots or shoots.
I have some mango bud grafts that are over a month old and they are still green and look like they are about to push. If they don’t dry out in this heatwave, I’m hopeful they will push shortly.
Simon
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Thanks for the information Mark! I was wondering if there is a specific brand that lebmung uses because I want to induce the bud to push and not grow roots. When I was doing plant research, I used to make my own agarose plates with different concentrations of hormones and the ratios of the hormones would determine if I would induce roots or shoots.
I have some mango bud grafts that are over a month old and they are still green and look like they are about to push. If they don’t dry out in this heatwave, I’m hopeful they will push shortly.
Simon
I am not using any brand I have my own formulation. I gave example for kaki paste because there are some for sale on internet and they work okay sometimes from what I heard. If you have some basic training and understand the dangers to work with chemicals then I can help you make your own, just pm
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It's called keiki paste. Doubt if kaki will return anything on a search. I used to use it on phalaenopsis orchids. Should be available from orchid supply vendors or make it yourself - https://www.ebay.com/gds/How-to-Make-Keiki-Paste-/10000000205263270/g.html (https://www.ebay.com/gds/How-to-Make-Keiki-Paste-/10000000205263270/g.html)
[/quote]
That should work. However like I said before a proper mixture from a quality vendor is necessary. I am not going to explain all the negative factors here because it's too much technical and probably boring for a gardener.
The link on ebay was written by a novice and the method how to make the paste is outrageous.
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Hello lebmung, thanks for the info. I don’t want to bother with making the mix because I got out of plant research and now I don’t have easy access to all the chemicals. I used to come up with my own formulation by running gradients with different concentrations of PGRs. Each plant responded differently to the same batch of mixture. If mix A induced roots on Tomatoes, it may induce shoots on tobacco for example.
Simon
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My bud grafts are actually only 20 days old but I’m still hopeful because they’re still green. I already pruned back the main growing tip to direct energy to the buds. I’ve successfully bud grafted a bunch of Citrus in this same manner.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/uj449e3rb/2_A056_AB9-8_D9_D-4972-82_BD-_CD1_E3_AF629_A3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/uj449e3rb/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/wnohagxo7/35_DDB440-_C70_D-4578-99_DA-1_E09608_DEB65.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wnohagxo7/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/fae6vmhsn/43321_D5_A-_E85_E-43_FE-_BFF9-663_F93_AAC2_C6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fae6vmhsn/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/tgtxqu5if/A5088265-153_B-4_FEF-_BB96-6453_AFE89955.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/tgtxqu5if/)
Simon
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Simon, it's not difficult only order the chemicals online.
I would send you some paste but I am afraid US customs will confiscate it right away.
You did a nice job with the grafts.
I strongly suggest you to wax the tips or apply a wound sealer. Mango is very susceptible to dieback, and open wounds are the main cause.
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I've recently had 2 grafts fail, one of a Sweet Tart scion on a Pickering. The rot quickly proceeded down into the main trunk and too close to the graft for comfort. I cut below the rot into healthy tissue then swabbed the cut and trunk with MagnaBon CS 2005. This copper treatment always stops the progression of rot dead in its tracks.
Like most I do a tape twistee above the scion and if I see there's quite a bit of moisture collecting there I'll open it up.
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Don't cut off all the root-stock's leaves before there are matured scion leaves. What must be destroyed are root-stock's buds, not the leaves.
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Don't cut off all the root-stock's leaves before there are matured scion leaves. What must be destroyed are root-stock's buds, not the leaves.
That's what I usually do, leave the "nurse" leaves until the scion leaves are filled out and producing for the tree. Almost daily I knock off foliar buds pushing from below the graft.
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Can we do this method of grafting for top working multiple varieties into one tree?
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Yes, but it's more difficult than a side veneer. Not much point in budding mango unless you're a commercial grafter looking to maximize budwood. Side veneer is generally best for top working.
Can we do this method of grafting for top working multiple varieties into one tree?
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My first successful push from a Mango bud graft. I didn’t use any chemicals but trimming back some of the apical dominance seems to have helped. This bud has been completely unwrapped for about a month and the heat seems to have been the final push it needed. For those members in SoCal, right now is a good time to attempt bud grafts because rootstocks are usually pushing vigorously in the warm weather.
I know, I know, it’s really still too early to call it a success but all the other buds have already died off and this is the only one showing signs of life. The union looks pretty good although this bud graft is on a relatively weak branch.
The rootstock is one of my California Super Mango Rootstocks and the tree grew too vigorously. The branches that formed on this potted Mango were too large and the branches had too many divets from growth buds to put on a regular cleft, side cleft or veneer graft. Bud grafting seemed like the best option because of all the growth bumps.
The tree has since exploded with more normal growth that is much smoother which I plan on cleft, side and veneer grafting. I may put on a few more bud grafts just for fun.
This bud graft that is beginning to push is one of the buds that I posted pictures of one or two pages back.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/astcpr6w7/49447759-0081-43_BB-8231-_EC1_BDB2_FB435.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/astcpr6w7/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/uao05ow47/AD8_A40_AD-_B6_EA-4_E1_A-92_AD-2500_E541_E9_A9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/uao05ow47/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/910duuv93/E9_F93642-33_E7-481_C-883_E-_D4_D6_BDE58518.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/910duuv93/)
Simon
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My first successful push from a Mango bud graft. I didn’t use any chemicals but trimming back some of the apical dominance seems to have helped. This bud has been completely unwrapped for about a month and the heat seems to have been the final push it needed. For those members in SoCal, right now is a good time to attempt bud grafts because rootstocks are usually pushing vigorously in the warm weather.
I know, I know, it’s really still too early to call it a success but all the other buds have already died off and this is the only one showing signs of life. The union looks pretty good although this bud graft is on a relatively weak branch.
The rootstock is one of my California Super Mango Rootstocks and the tree grew too vigorously. The branches that formed on this potted Mango were too large and the branches had too many divets from growth buds to put on a regular cleft, side cleft or veneer graft. Bud grafting seemed like the best option because of all the growth bumps.
The tree has since exploded with more normal growth that is much smoother which I plan on cleft, side and veneer grafting. I may put on a few more bud grafts just for fun.
This bud graft that is beginning to push is one of the buds that I posted pictures of one or two pages back.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/astcpr6w7/49447759-0081-43_BB-8231-_EC1_BDB2_FB435.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/astcpr6w7/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/uao05ow47/AD8_A40_AD-_B6_EA-4_E1_A-92_AD-2500_E541_E9_A9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/uao05ow47/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/910duuv93/E9_F93642-33_E7-481_C-883_E-_D4_D6_BDE58518.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/910duuv93/)
Simon
Looking good Simon! I think I'll try bud grafting next year.
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Congrats. That's a take.
My first successful push from a Mango bud graft. I didn’t use any chemicals but trimming back some of the apical dominance seems to have helped. This bud has been completely unwrapped for about a month and the heat seems to have been the final push it needed. For those members in SoCal, right now is a good time to attempt bud grafts because rootstocks are usually pushing vigorously in the warm weather.
I know, I know, it’s really still too early to call it a success but all the other buds have already died off and this is the only one showing signs of life. The union looks pretty good although this bud graft is on a relatively weak branch.
The rootstock is one of my California Super Mango Rootstocks and the tree grew too vigorously. The branches that formed on this potted Mango were too large and the branches had too many divets from growth buds to put on a regular cleft, side cleft or veneer graft. Bud grafting seemed like the best option because of all the growth bumps.
The tree has since exploded with more normal growth that is much smoother which I plan on cleft, side and veneer grafting. I may put on a few more bud grafts just for fun.
This bud graft that is beginning to push is one of the buds that I posted pictures of one or two pages back.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/astcpr6w7/49447759-0081-43_BB-8231-_EC1_BDB2_FB435.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/astcpr6w7/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/uao05ow47/AD8_A40_AD-_B6_EA-4_E1_A-92_AD-2500_E541_E9_A9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/uao05ow47/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/910duuv93/E9_F93642-33_E7-481_C-883_E-_D4_D6_BDE58518.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/910duuv93/)
Simon
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Once it takes, bud graft heals faster and better than other grafts. If rate of success was the same than veneer and cleft, it would be a great method for mangoes, but it isn't. Bud grafting of Maha on Gomera 3, 6 months later:
(https://s22.postimg.cc/fboyz5l65/20180706_122215.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fboyz5l65/)
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In this video, Sal lifts the cambium in order to disturb it. Has anyone tried this?
I did not lift the cambium but I plan on testing it out.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HrfKElaaO14
Simon
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Great bud work Simon, congrats ;) 8)
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In this video, Sal lifts the cambium in order to disturb it. Has anyone tried this?
I did not lift the cambium but I plan on testing it out.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HrfKElaaO14
Simon
I did for the Maha Chanok I posted before, following the instructions of that video. Out of 3 grafts, that one took. Later this summer I tried 2 more bud graft with an Alphonso scion, I didn't lift those ones, none took, all the rest I did (veneer, cleft and even one tongue graft) did take. BTW, the bud grafted Maha is growing better and faster than veneer and cleft, but that could be because of the rootstock. With these numbers I can just guess.
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with 100's of grafts that took for me, I tried budgrafting too and for me I found it to be waste of time and resource. Cleft or veneer is so simple and get 100% take in current weather.
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Behl, I wonder if our success rate will be a lot higher now that is August. I have the best success when it’s warm, especially at night.
Simon
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might be, but when I am hitting 100% in other ways I dont normally take chances. yes, will try if I run out of branches to graft. I will have plenty of open branches to experiment with now thru Sept. Keep us posted on your success.
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I haven’t tried bud grafting mangoes but my experience with citrus is that the buds seem delayed in terms of growth potential compared to grafting actual branches with multiple buds. My citrus grafts of 6-8 inches from this early summer already equal or exceed bud grafts from m lay summer in terms of growth and also in terms of branching.
The only caveat I see with this comparison is that my mango veneer and cleft grafts usually only push through 1 node from the scion. Anyone with different experience?
Otherwise congrats Simon! And good luck with your rootsctock experiments.
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I haven’t tried bud grafting mangoes but my experience with citrus is that the buds seem delayed in terms of growth potential compared to grafting actual branches with multiple buds. My citrus grafts of 6-8 inches from this early summer already equal or exceed bud grafts from m lay summer in terms of growth and also in terms of branching.
The only caveat I see with this comparison is that my mango veneer and cleft grafts usually only push through 1 node from the scion. Anyone with different experience?
Otherwise congrats Simon! And good luck with your rootsctock experiments.
not true, mango will push only thru one node if the top bud is intact. If you knock off the top bud, you get multiple pushes. I have in fact given up top node now, when I prep scions for others, I remove the leading bud, leaving behind at least 4 swelled nodes, you get takes from most of them.
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I’ve done a bunch of successful citrus bud and cleft grafts and from my experience, the cleft grafts initiate growth much faster and grow faster overall. I allow my citrus bud graft to heal for about a month and if they haven’t pushed by then, I trim off nearby growth to re direct energy towards the bud and this usually kicks the bud into gear.
I’ve had equally good success with mango cleft grafts whether using apical bud scions or scions with the apical bud removed. I sometimes get apical buds pushing 2 stems such as this Peach Cobbler.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/v8jqo4xuv/50_F8_A6_AD-_E281-4_B92-95_DE-_DFC27_B7_B6344.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/v8jqo4xuv/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/aoewpn2o7/7_FCEFCAB-7_F23-452_F-8_AA8-9315_BC803_D70.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/aoewpn2o7/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/xpvhvea1j/AFC309_C4-_AB93-43_C3-821_A-2_AF4_CDD4781_F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/xpvhvea1j/)
This ST Maui
(https://s15.postimg.cc/ti0pm3y5z/FD8790_DD-_DDE8-40_AF-_ADCB-62309779_D3_D7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ti0pm3y5z/)
And this Juicy Peach look like they will push multiple sprouts from the apical bud as well
(https://s15.postimg.cc/rq7qr9c93/E4_F32_D25-_E6_A5-46_B5-9_AB9-_C05_D0_FB6_A628.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rq7qr9c93/)
Here’s one that Behl was talking about. This is a CAC/COC scion with the apical bud removed. It will form multiple branches that are nicely spaced. It got a little messed up in the heat but should be fine.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/v8jqo4xuv/50_F8_A6_AD-_E281-4_B92-95_DE-_DFC27_B7_B6344.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/v8jqo4xuv/)
Simon
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In this video, Sal lifts the cambium in order to disturb it. Has anyone tried this?
I did not lift the cambium but I plan on testing it out.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HrfKElaaO14
Simon
Hi Simon,
I think that will ensure there are some cambium making contact to the bud just in case the rootstock cut was not deep down to the cambium top surface. (If he cut a little too deep then there is no cambium.)
Btw, toward the end Sal talked about the bird attacked the green tape thinking it was a worm; well, I think the bird wanted it for nesting material.
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For small scale gardener I still think the best graft is either cleft (wedge down the center) with pencil size rootstock or veneer on 1" diameter rootstock. Bud graft is just too weak too slow.
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Sapote, I agree although there are special cases that bud grafts work better. The bud grafts are easier to place and if one becomes proficient at it, you can instantly create a multigraft Mango tree on a whip. This is how Dave Wilson Nursery creates their multigraft stone fruits.
Simon
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Many attempts at multi-grafting young mango seedlings, several different ways, never worked--- at Zill's nurseries. Citrus multi-grafts, cocktail trees, often diminish in number of varieties, after several years.
Cocktail trees are best accomplished on trees that have been in the ground for several years.
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Many attempts at multi-grafting young mango seedlings, several different ways, never worked--- at Zill's nurseries. Citrus multi-grafts, cocktail trees, often diminish in number of varieties, after several years.
Cocktail trees are best accomplished on trees that have been in the ground for several years.
Agree. For some strange reason I've had terrible luck on avocado seedlings using Reed, Sir Prize, Oro Negro seedlings. In ground and they go bonkers.
Probably done about 20 grafts to a big key lime of 3 varieties of oranges, persian lime, limequat, etc. Cleft green on green, mostly T-bud, my favorite for citrus. The t-bud shoots sometimes come off 3 to a budeye and the branches I did a few months ago are already 1/2" thick and 2-3' long. Have done cocktail mangos with great success too.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/t5g2wx4yl/Citrus_Graft_May25.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/t5g2wx4yl/)
Cocktail mango about 3 weeks ago. Pineapple Pleasure output has been tipped/topped at least once. It is vigorous. Pineapple Pleasure, Juicy Peach and Orange Sherbet are going gang busters on a Malika that froze back to its turpentine rootstock:
(https://s22.postimg.cc/tkrcphvwd/Mango_Grafts_July22.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/tkrcphvwd/)
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Many attempts at multi-grafting young mango seedlings, several different ways, never worked--- at Zill's nurseries. Citrus multi-grafts, cocktail trees, often diminish in number of varieties, after several years.
Cocktail trees are best accomplished on trees that have been in the ground for several years.
Har, great information! I’ve had great luck multigrafting secondary branches on sapling Mangos but I usually only put on two varieties. Here’s one I posted before of a Lemon Zest and Sweet Tart multigraft.
I believe there is a mechanism in young trees that senses damage. If the damage is too great, the seedling will abort the main sprout and push a new sprout. I’ve had this happen on many occasions.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/8hti3rac7/9992_DEB6-7_C84-40_B9-88_B2-01315039_C894.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8hti3rac7/)
Simon
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Many attempts at multi-grafting young mango seedlings, several different ways, never worked--- at Zill's nurseries. Citrus multi-grafts, cocktail trees, often diminish in number of varieties, after several years.
Cocktail trees are best accomplished on trees that have been in the ground for several years.
Har, I always start with number of varieties that are on number of branches on a seedling that is 2-3 yr old. usually I have 2 to 4 branches. all these get different mango types and they grow into trees of their own. later on if I see opportunity on grafted branch to graft other varieties to add more, I do that but with caution. I do have some trees that have over 15 varieties but that is for budwood sourcing only.
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Here’s a quick update of the Mango bud graft. It is growing fast in this heat.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/3ts7gi55z/19_AE0_C36-5_C51-4362-97_F3-9375_A2_B76_DCF.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3ts7gi55z/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/70mr0551j/70_C89117-7_CE1-4_AB7-9_E09-72_D0_ED296_DB2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/70mr0551j/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/7de56akqf/A12501_B5-22_AC-40_B7-_B69_E-_B8_E3_F4_D3_F3_DB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7de56akqf/)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/ax02w4ibb/CF9_DB427-9_C04-4_DE7-8946-6_A5852_C0_E45_A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ax02w4ibb/)
Simon
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Nicely done, Simon. I experimented with bud grafting a while back and contrary to common belief, bud grafts are more vigorous and therefore grow much faster than normal traditional grafts. BUT depending on conditions, they are maybe slow to kickstart. Once they start, however, to go bonkers like Mark would say. I have chip budded atemoyas with the same ease as with mangos and the behavior is confirmed again and again.
Below is my LZ experimental chip bud graft back in 2015 on a mature branch of Bombay on main in ground Manila. Chip bud is very versatile as it could be done practical anytime and on young or mature branches.
(https://s33.postimg.cc/hxj72yyx7/LZ_Bud_Grafting.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hxj72yyx7/)
An example of a chip budded Pink's Mammoth on Jumbo AP on main in ground Minh atemoya with modified side grafted soursop at the end of the branch.
(https://s33.postimg.cc/lkyy90jyz/IMG_0962.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/lkyy90jyz/)
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Thera, thanks for the information. How is your bud grafted doing now? It looks like it was doing great. Has it fruited for you yet?
Simon
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I got six fruits last year that tasted excellent like a LZ would taste, but I prefer the original. I was born in SE Asia, so not easy to impress. :)
(https://s33.postimg.cc/mb0kn6s97/IMG_1514.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/mb0kn6s97/)
This is how the it looks now. No fruit due to severe shape trimming and diseases. It is recovering nicely right now as you can see below.
(https://s33.postimg.cc/c0y5nyht7/IMG_1173.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/c0y5nyht7/)
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Thanks for the update Thera! That’s amazing growth from the bud graft. There is potential in the bud graft and I will do some more work to see if we can get the bud to push faster. Keki paste is worth a try.
Simon
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Here’s a quick update of my Lemon Zest mango bud graft. It has been growing nicely for a potted tree.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FkbQtnQH/8711-A11-F-7433-46-D7-9-C6-D-0-B2947-C86716.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FkbQtnQH)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WhjvmjMF/A7-EC8-CC1-2-D0-E-4-DF4-87-D5-67-F02-EFF8-F3-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WhjvmjMF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0r7vJrJ1/CE84-DCF5-5798-419-A-8363-A2-B4-F2-F212-E7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0r7vJrJ1)
Here’s another mango bud graft that is finally pushing after over 3 months being dormant. This one is a Sweet Tart bud graft onto Kent Seedling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8sGp4hGz/8-D6-AABEF-D799-4269-AE87-F2-BA5-CDA0146.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8sGp4hGz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9wbNY3hZ/F1-C6363-D-C24-A-4605-A23-A-CB04-BCC7-C56-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9wbNY3hZ)
Simon
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The LZ bud graft is growing vigorously now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zLWM92bq/7-E52-A2-BE-3104-43-C8-9-B6-E-A1-F162-C89-F67.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zLWM92bq)
The Sweet Tart bud graft is growing at a snails pace. I’m going to re pot this plant and root prune a bit to get more feeder roots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qhqKNSsT/37-B48555-0-DCC-4656-8-CF1-F3-B9539-C425-F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qhqKNSsT)
Simon
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Can someone please post a video or photos on this process ?
I would like this method , anything to improve my chances .
Thanks Ed
Is this the method you guys are talking about ?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ofTa7rVVOAY
I didn’t see a swollen bud on that piece of bud wood .
Ed
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That’s pretty much the method I used except I chose a bud that was swollen.
Simon
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Thank you Simon👍