The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: simon_grow on September 06, 2019, 08:04:49 PM
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(https://i.postimg.cc/gxtSt0TL/6-B6898-C9-DB21-4-A4-E-BE6-E-224-BBA4-C1318.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gxtSt0TL)
Lemon Zest is one of my all time favorite Mango varieties but my young trees set very few fruit. This picture above is a Lemon Zest tree grown in Palm Springs California by Gary and as you can see, his tree consistently sets good amounts of fruit, he probably had 60+ fruit this year.
I would like to gather information from members that grow Lemon Zest in hopes that we can come up with a strategy to improve yields for this excellent tasting variety.
I know that in hot and dry Palm Springs, Powdery Mildew and other fungal diseases are not an issue and this is likely why Gary gets such good yields from his tree.
Over the years, I have harvested a few fruit here and there from my various LZ trees but I’ve never harvested more than 3 fruit per tree( excluding nubbins) from any one tree in a given year. I do not spray my trees with Fungicide unless they have an obvious fungal infection but I will probably start a fungicide spray regimen in hopes of increasing yields.
I know that in some locations in Southern California, fungal diseases are not as much of an issue and in those counties, LZ probably has a decent to good yield.
I would like to hear if anyone has successfully increased yields for their LZ trees wether you are in Florida, SoCal or some other location. I’m especially interested to hear from individuals that initially had low or no yield and then saw a significant increase in yield after they started a Fungicide regimen or alternative method to increase yield.
I have heard from two growers that say their trees started setting and holding significantly more fruit after their trees reached a large size.
My tree set a good amount of fruit this year and last year but most the fruit dropped at around 2 inches in length which coincided with an increase in temperatures.
As soon as the fruit dropped from my trees, my tree exploded with vegetative growth. I’m wondering if I can decrease fruit drop by slightly backing off on watering. I already back off on Nitrogen pre bloom.
Any observations or comments are greatly appreciated.
Simon
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I have several different LZ trees on various rootstocks and my only LZ tree that is still holding fruit is this Double Stone grafted LZ tree that I just dug up from Leo Manuel’s house. I gifted him this tree several years ago but it kept getting fungal diseases and never set fruit at his place. I dug it out of the ground early this year and stuck it into a big pot and after it established, it threw a single late bloom which set 5 fruit. One fruit just fell off as I took this picture. This tree is about two feet tall and 3 feet wide at its widest side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JHN8LXkh/1-A73-C8-C4-3802-4-BA0-B32-E-2-F7-D83248-EEB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JHN8LXkh)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xcQYP6wN/7-A215-AD2-AACD-462-F-ADEC-36768-C4-F7-EDE.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xcQYP6wN)
In the last three years, my LZ grafted onto LaVern Manilla is the most consistent in production but it still only produces about three fruit max. It is in mostly shade which definitely isn’t helping with the yield.
My LZ tree on Turpentine rootstock is my largest tree and it’s bloomed heavily the last two years and initially set a bunch of fruit the last two years but most eventually drop. Last year I had one or two full sized excellent tasting fruit but this year, it dropped all its fruit. Last Winter, this tree suffered from lots of dieback in Winter and it looked like a skeleton but once it warmed up, it exploded with growth.
This picture I just took shows how bushy it is. It is approximately 7 feet tall and 8 feet wide and is very dense with foliage.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s16qMwVR/F9827-C6-F-65-E4-4956-9077-FAFBBC67-FB3-C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/s16qMwVR)
Simon
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Do all mango varieties do well in Palm Springs/Coachella Valley?
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I only know one grower in Palm Springs and he harvested about two hundred Mangos from his various trees if I remember correctly. In the extreme heat, some leaves and fruit can burn but otherwise his mango trees are thriving and producing very well.
I would presume that Arizona members will also get high yields from LZ.
Simon
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Simon,
I only got 2 fruit from LZ on Manila rootstock that is 4 years old. This is the first year it ever fruited. I spray with 2 types of fungicides. Most leaf/flower damage is encountered in Feb Thru June. I never get PM (powdery mildew) after June...so a combo of heat and humidity (Aug) seem to be necessary for good leaf growth and survival from PM, at least for our socal’rs. If we can’t get LZ to work in socal, I may try to switch to Orange Sherbert.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tn7cwsrP/CB1-AA7-C6-6-EA7-4731-9380-BF991032-A10-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tn7cwsrP)
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Frank has said in the past that if it rains during one of the several LZ blooms, to remove the panicles for a rebloom. Hopefully the rain misses one of the reblooms, if not try for another rebloom.
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Hey Simon,
One thing to throw out there is how are you pruning post harvest season? I have heard that if you cut over 1ft off of a fruiting branch it will set that branch back by two years until it fruits again, tip pruning is great for inducing branching and management but excessively pruning a mango can also cause low crop along with rainy season fungal spread.
-Joep450
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Doc Campbell said his LZ took more than 10 years to really get going.
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Simon,
I only got 2 fruit from LZ on Manila rootstock that is 4 years old. This is the first year it ever fruited. I spray with 2 types of fungicides. Most leaf/flower damage is encountered in Feb Thru June. I never get PM (powdery mildew) after June...so a combo of heat and humidity (Aug) seem to be necessary for good leaf growth and survival from PM, at least for our socal’rs. If we can’t get LZ to work in socal, I may try to switch to Orange Sherbert.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tn7cwsrP/CB1-AA7-C6-6-EA7-4731-9380-BF991032-A10-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tn7cwsrP)
Great info Warren! The thing that confuses me is that my LZ trees have great fruit set but once the fruit get to about 2 inches in size, they tend to drop most their fruit. Then comes a massive growth flush. If Powdery Mildew were the main issue, I would expect it to heavily affect the blooms, which they do, but my trees always have a second or third bloom that have significantly less PM and I get decent to great fruit set from the second or third bloom.
Now that my larger tree is fully established, I’m hoping that it will set good fruit next year. I don’t want to use any Plant Growth Regulators. I give my larger trees very little Nitrogen and this time of year, I already stop giving Nitrogen only to my larger trees in order to decrease leaf Nitrogen levels.
My Double Stone Grafted Lemon Zest fruits are about 2 inches in length and there is currently a small growth flush coming out so I expect it to drop a couple more fruit but at this time of year, I suspect this little tree will hold at least one fruit since it is already past the heavy fruit drop period that begins when it starts getting really hot in SoCal.
Simon
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Frank has said in the past that if it rains during one of the several LZ blooms, to remove the panicles for a rebloom. Hopefully the rain misses one of the reblooms, if not try for another rebloom.
Yes, my trees always rebloom if the first blooms get infected. Sometimes I prune off the old panicles because it gets rid of a lot of disease causing spores but even if I don’t remove the panicles, they will fall off and new blooms will emerge on the terminal but there will be a lot of spores left behind.
Simon
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Hey Simon,
One thing to throw out there is how are you pruning post harvest season? I have heard that if you cut over 1ft off of a fruiting branch it will set that branch back by two years until it fruits again, tip pruning is great for inducing branching and management but excessively pruning a mango can also cause low crop along with rainy season fungal spread.
-Joep450
Hey Joe, here in SoCal, even late pruning or pruning more than a foot will still give us blooms.
A big issue we have here in SoCal is that young trees bloom incessantly in Winter. We want our young trees to grow vegetatively and increase in size before blooming and setting fruit.
I have experimented for many years on techniques to inhibit blooms including late pruning, increased Nitrogen levels, even into Winter, increased watering, even into Winter and nothing has worded except moving the plants indoors and increasing soil and ambient air temperatures above 62-63F.
Simon
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Doc Campbell said his LZ took more than 10 years to really get going.
Future, I’d gladly wait ten years if LZ will set more fruit. I have to look at my tags but I believe my LZ has been in ground for about 4-5 years already. I consider my tree large and established enough to start holding fruit so I’m hoping i will get lucky next year.
Probably the number one thing we can do is to begin an integrated pest management system that includes the scheduled spraying with various fungicides that have different mechanisms of action.
Alternating with Copper, Sulfur, Garden Phos or even baking soda solution will probably work but I’m wondering if my tree was just too young. I’m still trying to figure out why my tree can set fruit but they always drop around 1-2 inches in size. If it’s just a matter of maturity, I’m ok with that and will gladly wait another five years.
Simon
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I only know one grower in Palm Springs and he harvested about two hundred Mangos from his various trees if I remember correctly. In the extreme heat, some leaves and fruit can burn but otherwise his mango trees are thriving and producing very well.
I would presume that Arizona members will also get high yields from LZ.
Simon
There is one LZ tree that I know of second-hand that does very well in Phoenix. Very productive and clean fruit (I got to taste an LZ from the tree, even though I have not seen the tree). Perfect LZ flavor.
My LZ tree has produced a couple of fruit for me, but that is because of the size. It has been growing steadily since I planted it as a 3 gallon a few years ago. Now it is up to 8+ ft tall x 6 ft wide. Assuming our winter this year was not as bad as last year I would expect a decent crop. Tree grows like a champ. Loves the heat. Most mangos do, but LZ seems to do especially well in the desert.
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I only know one grower in Palm Springs and he harvested about two hundred Mangos from his various trees if I remember correctly. In the extreme heat, some leaves and fruit can burn but otherwise his mango trees are thriving and producing very well.
I would presume that Arizona members will also get high yields from LZ.
Simon
There is one LZ tree that I know of second-hand that does very well in Phoenix. Very productive and clean fruit (I got to taste an LZ from the tree, even though I have not seen the tree). Perfect LZ flavor.
My LZ tree has produced a couple of fruit for me, but that is because of the size. It has been growing steadily since I planted it as a 3 gallon a few years ago. Now it is up to 8+ ft tall x 6 ft wide. Assuming our winter this year was not as bad as last year I would expect a decent crop. Tree grows like a champ. Loves the heat. Most mangos do, but LZ seems to do especially well in the desert.
Starch, thanks for the info! It does seem that Mango trees thrive in the heat. From a biological standpoint, we know that Powdery Mildew prefers a specific temperature and humidity and desert like temps of Palm Springs, Coachella Valley and Arizona are too harsh for PM to proliferate. The lower humidity in these locations will also inhibit other fungal organisms like Anthracnose.
Simon
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Simon.... Reading in between the lines that Zill puts out. They will no longer graft Lemon Zest due to so called "issues". My take is LZ will do just fine in lower humidity southern California and Arizona you have proof already fr Starch. You just have to iron out the kinks. Right rootstock etc. Maybe some minimal sprays. How about a dose of potassium?
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Simon, can you have a friend in the desert (Gary?) plant an LZ tree for you? When the fruit's in season, you can make a couple of trips to harvest the fruit. Maybe a dumb solution, but it would work! I'm thinking it might be a losing battle to get a variety to produce where it doesn't want to produce.
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Simon.... Reading in between the lines that Zill puts out. They will no longer graft Lemon Zest due to so called "issues". My take is LZ will do just fine in lower humidity southern California and Arizona you have proof already fr Starch. You just have to iron out the kinks. Right rootstock etc. Maybe some minimal sprays. How about a dose of potassium?
I’ve tried a multitude of Foliar sprays including seaweed and Citrus Nutritional spray. My particular location in San Diego is more coastal inland and the humidity is relatively high compared to more inland locations. I get heavy fog in the mornings which causes a lot of fungal issues for me.
My area is an excellent growing environment for Powdery Mildew. I do feed my trees with a good amount of Potassium and micro and trace elements. I also increased silicon levels with Potassium Silicate.
Simon
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Simon, can you have a friend in the desert (Gary?) plant an LZ tree for you? When the fruit's in season, you can make a couple of trips to harvest the fruit. Maybe a dumb solution, but it would work! I'm thinking it might be a losing battle to get a variety to produce where it doesn't want to produce.
John, I don’t want to burden him with work. Growing in the desert is a lot of work because temps can reach 117 or maybe even higher. In extreme heat, he has to put up shade cloth.
LZ is just so incredibly delicious that I’m willing to experiment some more and wait for the tree to mature even more to see if I get better fruit set.
I already have Sweet Tart and other varieties that are more disease resistant and productive. I also have a PPK tree and several Orange Sherbet seedlings growing. So far, the Orange Sherbet seedlings blooms seem more resistant to PM. It’s just a small graft but at least it set a fruit. I plucked it off so I don’t know if it would have held to full maturity but I’ll find out in the coming years.
Simon
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Simon.... Reading in between the lines that Zill puts out. They will no longer graft Lemon Zest due to so called "issues". My take is LZ will do just fine in lower humidity southern California and Arizona you have proof already fr Starch. You just have to iron out the kinks. Right rootstock etc. Maybe some minimal sprays. How about a dose of potassium?
I’ve tried a multitude of Foliar sprays including seaweed and Citrus Nutritional spray. My particular location in San Diego is more coastal inland and the humidity is relatively high compared to more inland locations. I get heavy fog in the mornings which causes a lot of fungal issues for me.
My area is an excellent growing environment for Powdery Mildew. I do feed my trees with a good amount of Potassium and micro and trace elements. I also increased silicon levels with Potassium Silicate.
Simon
I made too many assumptions Simon. San Diego has annual precipitation of 10.4". Looks like this precipitation comes at exactly the wrong time for you in the form of morning fog. I never would have guessed you could fungal issues in a location with 10" annual precipitation. Maybe try iron? Do you think ferrous sulfate thrown on top of mulch will chelate into the wood chips and become an organic-bound iron?
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Thank you Simon for this very informative post. I live in phoenix in a farming community. I have seven seedlings in the ground doing well. Five are on Flood irrigation.
Lemon Zest will definitely be one of the varieties i plan to graft on one or two of the trees when they get to size probably in 3 years. I'm patient. In the desert we get none of those fungus issues.
Congrats to Gary his tree looks phenomenal!!
Thanks again for the valuable info.
Mike
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Simon
Gary climate is perfect for LZ, Alfonso and other varieties that suffer from powdery mildew in our areas. I’ll give him a ring to see if we can get our old friend in the tasting next month.
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Simon.... Reading in between the lines that Zill puts out. They will no longer graft Lemon Zest due to so called "issues". My take is LZ will do just fine in lower humidity southern California and Arizona you have proof already fr Starch. You just have to iron out the kinks. Right rootstock etc. Maybe some minimal sprays. How about a dose of potassium?
I’ve tried a multitude of Foliar sprays including seaweed and Citrus Nutritional spray. My particular location in San Diego is more coastal inland and the humidity is relatively high compared to more inland locations. I get heavy fog in the mornings which causes a lot of fungal issues for me.
My area is an excellent growing environment for Powdery Mildew. I do feed my trees with a good amount of Potassium and micro and trace elements. I also increased silicon levels with Potassium Silicate.
Simon
I made too many assumptions Simon. San Diego has annual precipitation of 10.4". Looks like this precipitation comes at exactly the wrong time for you in the form of morning fog. I never would have guessed you could fungal issues in a location with 10" annual precipitation. Maybe try iron? Do you think ferrous sulfate thrown on top of mulch will chelate into the wood chips and become an organic-bound iron?
Yeah, the rain comes at the wrong time of year and heavy fog in the mornings means my plants are covered in dew and my roof sometimes drips with collected moisture. I don’t have this issue with the fog in Summer, it happens more in Winter and Spring.
I do give my trees Iron. Initially when I first planted my trees, my soil had a pH of around 8 so I used Iron chelate EDDHA but now my soil in the better parts of my yard has a pH of around 6-7 so I just use Iron EDTA. I use Sulfur to bring the pH of my soil down.
I have some compost and mulch over the root zone of my trees. I don’t add compost into my planting holes, instead, I top dress with it so that the nutrients can leach down.
Realizing that fungus is one of the most likely candidates for poor fruit set, I am considering removing the mulch around my trees. The mulch is extremely beneficial for my trees so I’m hesitant to remove it but it is an option I’m considering. I will probably begin a fungal spray regimen before removing my mulch.
Simon
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Thank you Simon for this very informative post. I live in phoenix in a farming community. I have seven seedlings in the ground doing well. Five are on Flood irrigation.
Lemon Zest will definitely be one of the varieties i plan to graft on one or two of the trees when they get to size probably in 3 years. I'm patient. In the desert we get none of those fungus issues.
Congrats to Gary his tree looks phenomenal!!
Thanks again for the valuable info.
Mike
Mike, I would expect you to have huge Lemon Zest seedlings that are fruitful in the coming years. With your heat and low humidity, there shouldn’t be any issues with fruit set.
Simon
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Simon
Gary climate is perfect for LZ, Alfonso and other varieties that suffer from powdery mildew in our areas. I’ll give him a ring to see if we can get our old friend in the tasting next month.
Great, it’s been a while since Gary came to one of the mango tastings. It would be wonderful to see the old group back together!
Simon
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in So Cal, PM seems to be the big issue. I sprayed and still it didnt help. blooms turn black and if you have bead size fruitlets, they end up falling. If that is not enough, then Santa Ana takes care of drops OR mangoes split. Our winter/Spring is weird with wild temp swings, fog, extreme cold and warm days. Frank has a big tree, now sure how it performed this year. He always start of with over 400 fruits, end up under a dozzen
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(https://i.postimg.cc/gxtSt0TL/6-B6898-C9-DB21-4-A4-E-BE6-E-224-BBA4-C1318.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gxtSt0TL)
Lemon Zest is one of my all time favorite Mango varieties but my young trees set very few fruit. This picture above is a Lemon Zest tree grown in Palm Springs California by Gary and as you can see, his tree consistently sets good amounts of fruit, he probably had 60+ fruit this year.
I would like to gather information from members that grow Lemon Zest in hopes that we can come up with a strategy to improve yields for this excellent tasting variety.
I have heard from two growers that say their trees started setting and holding significantly more fruit after their trees reached a large size.
My tree set a good amount of fruit this year and last year but most the fruit dropped at around 2 inches in length which coincided with an increase in temperatures.
As soon as the fruit dropped from my trees, my tree exploded with vegetative growth. I’m wondering if I can decrease fruit drop by slightly backing off on watering. I already back off on Nitrogen pre bloom.
Any observations or comments are greatly appreciated.
Simon
My trees are small and in sand & full sun and typical low yields so far so I can only add observation comments.
Looking at the picture, It appears a eugenia or other hedge competing for nutrients as well as a paver area changing the ph. Also the hedge is probably shading the tree which is probably advantageous in his area to prevent high heat and fruit drop as you also mentioned with your fruit drop as heat intensifies.
Perhaps the competition with the hedge taking away some minerals, nitrogen, etc. may be slowing growth and fruit drop. Perhaps the ph of his soil is actually not ideal and may be for example higher ph 8 etc. and decreasing again some nitrogen/mineral uptake. So we may actually be loving ours too much vs. his tree in setting up a growth vs. fruiting environment... All guesses. It would be nice to know his soil ph levels around the trees root zone. A partial canopy/sun block would also be a fairly easy installation on 1 tree to try before temps. increase to see if fruit drop slowed...
I know little about pools but here is a google quote on concrete affecting soil: "Concrete Raises Soil pH
Concrete is alkaline in nature, meaning it has a pH of 7.0 or above. ... One ingredient is limestone, which is made up of calcium carbonate and is commonly used by home gardeners in a finely ground powder form, called lime, to raise the pH of overly acidic soils.".. Thus obvious also may try increase ph, increase calcium carbonate, etc. etc. etc.
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Simon gave me some LZ budwoods -- thanks Simon -- back in 2016 and the grafts on Manila are big now but have not held a single fruits. About 3 or 4 fruits got to 2.5" then dropped. The tree always had PM but still there were a few fruits formed and growing. I think I will build a big pool next to it like Gary. Heavy dew in April is the reason for PM, even I tried to cover with tarp but didn't help.
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in So Cal, PM seems to be the big issue. I sprayed and still it didnt help. blooms turn black and if you have bead size fruitlets, they end up falling. If that is not enough, then Santa Ana takes care of drops OR mangoes split. Our winter/Spring is weird with wild temp swings, fog, extreme cold and warm days. Frank has a big tree, now sure how it performed this year. He always start of with over 400 fruits, end up under a dozzen
Behl, my first blooms always get PM really bad but my second or third blooms usually don’t get hit as hard. I get plenty of fruit set but they just fall off when they reach 2-4 inches which usually coincides with the heat and a vegetative flush.
Heres a Lemon Zest fruit that just fell off my potted DSGed LZ. It’s about 4 inches long and if it were any other variety, I would expect all but one or two fruit to fall off but since it’s LZ and a small potted Bonsai tree, I would guess that all the fruit will fall off. If I can get one fruit to full maturity on this little tree, that would be quite an achievement.
This fruit actually fell off about two days ago. Notice that it doesn’t have any signs of fungal disease or Bacterial Black Spot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VJbttVVV/9-DBB2016-15-A3-44-EE-B587-95360816-D463.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VJbttVVV)
My little potted tree still has 3 fruit hanging on that one panicle so I’ll keep everyone updated. My little tree is currently pushing some new growth flushes.
Behl, for my LZ trees, I only notice cracking of fruit on nubbins that weren’t completely pollinated. These fruit are much smaller and more rounded in shape and have very prominent dark colored lentils.
Simon
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(https://i.postimg.cc/gxtSt0TL/6-B6898-C9-DB21-4-A4-E-BE6-E-224-BBA4-C1318.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gxtSt0TL)
Lemon Zest is one of my all time favorite Mango varieties but my young trees set very few fruit. This picture above is a Lemon Zest tree grown in Palm Springs California by Gary and as you can see, his tree consistently sets good amounts of fruit, he probably had 60+ fruit this year.
I would like to gather information from members that grow Lemon Zest in hopes that we can come up with a strategy to improve yields for this excellent tasting variety.
I have heard from two growers that say their trees started setting and holding significantly more fruit after their trees reached a large size.
My tree set a good amount of fruit this year and last year but most the fruit dropped at around 2 inches in length which coincided with an increase in temperatures.
As soon as the fruit dropped from my trees, my tree exploded with vegetative growth. I’m wondering if I can decrease fruit drop by slightly backing off on watering. I already back off on Nitrogen pre bloom.
Any observations or comments are greatly appreciated.
Simon
My trees are small and in sand & full sun and typical low yields so far so I can only add observation comments.
Looking at the picture, It appears a eugenia or other hedge competing for nutrients as well as a paver area changing the ph. Also the hedge is probably shading the tree which is probably advantageous in his area to prevent high heat and fruit drop as you also mentioned with your fruit drop as heat intensifies.
Perhaps the competition with the hedge taking away some minerals, nitrogen, etc. may be slowing growth and fruit drop. Perhaps the ph of his soil is actually not ideal and may be for example higher ph 8 etc. and decreasing again some nitrogen/mineral uptake. So we may actually be loving ours too much vs. his tree in setting up a growth vs. fruiting environment... All guesses. It would be nice to know his soil ph levels around the trees root zone. A partial canopy/sun block would also be a fairly easy installation on 1 tree to try before temps. increase to see if fruit drop slowed...
I know little about pools but here is a google quote on concrete affecting soil: "Concrete Raises Soil pH
Concrete is alkaline in nature, meaning it has a pH of 7.0 or above. ... One ingredient is limestone, which is made up of calcium carbonate and is commonly used by home gardeners in a finely ground powder form, called lime, to raise the pH of overly acidic soils.".. Thus obvious also may try increase ph, increase calcium carbonate, etc. etc. etc.
Palmcity, thanks for the observations. I have a Lemon Zest tree on Kent rootstock in soil with a pH approximately 7.5-8 and it has the same issues. The pH was so high that it wasn’t able to uptake most of the minors and trace minerals from the soil and it got chlorotic and sickly. I saved it by using a systemic Fungicide and foliar applications of minors and trace minerals. It is a tiny stunted Bush only a few feet tall and wide but it is fully recovered now and it bloomed last winter but dropped all its fruit.
Gary in Palm Springs has good draining soil but I don’t know the pH. I’m still hoping that size or maturity of the tree will allow the tree to hold more fruit.
Simon
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Simon gave me some LZ budwoods -- thanks Simon -- back in 2016 and the grafts on Manila are big now but have not held a single fruits. About 3 or 4 fruits got to 2.5" then dropped. The tree always had PM but still there were a few fruits formed and growing. I think I will build a big pool next to it like Gary. Heavy dew in April is the reason for PM, even I tried to cover with tarp but didn't help.
Sapote,
I’m glad it’s growing well for you. We may have to just suck it up and begin a spray regimen. I know some people have stated that they sprayed and still got PM but that just tells me that the spray program/chemical/concentration or contact time was not effective.
Simon
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From all the reading I have been doing on the topic of PM, it seems that most of it is host specific, that treatment need not be during the time of infection, that the key trigger is dew, and that promoting airflow, and sunshine in the early morning (keeping the plants dry) is the key to prevention.
When all else fails, spraying should help, whether with skim milk, neem or horticultural oils, any anti-fungal, or a pH adjuster.
If it truly is PM that is the issue. I remember that Leo gets plenty of fruit despite serious PM attack of his blooms. If LZ is dropping fruit, who's to say it isn't to do with maturity? I guess we will find out next year.
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Yeah, Leo gets plenty of PM at his orchard but the varieties he is growing is at least partially resistant to PM.
PM is definitely one of the causes of low fruit set because it really affects the blooms but I get multiple blooms and the later blooms don’t get affected as much.
Maturity of the tree or a shift in hormones within the tree is likely a cause for fruit drop post fruit set.
My potted DSGed LZ dropped two more fruit yesterday and again, I notice that this is correlated with new vegetative growth on the plant. This natural attrition is probably normal for Mangos but perhaps LZ is just one of those varieties that get a little heavy handed when it comes to self thinning?
(https://i.postimg.cc/qtmMLYhP/049-DFB48-07-EA-429-F-89-FB-90917607-F817.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qtmMLYhP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4HHdn53r/21-F9-D867-7-EC5-4-E0-B-93-F9-49-D8-D6176515.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4HHdn53r)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hhNv6Hyg/404-AB5-DC-3-E9-D-4-B3-F-8-C98-15-EB396-B8-C76.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hhNv6Hyg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1gM4dXTY/56-E7455-C-47-A8-4-F3-A-8890-4-F8232-A9-CA4-A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1gM4dXTY)
I’m thinking that as a large tree, the Lemon Zest variety naturally wants to reach a larger size before hormones levels tip the scales and trigger a reduction in hormones that signal for fruit drop or the opposite happens and there is an increase in hormones that signal for holding onto the fruit.
It could also be that a certain level of stored carbohydrates can influence fruit drop/retention.
Some may argue that VP is a large tree yet it is very precious but it could be variety specific.
In Cherimoyas, the Dr White variety is a large tree canopy variety and it does not hold fruit well until the tree is established for several years and attains a relatively large canopy.
Simon
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In order to get 100% photosynthesis the soil needs to be alive or biologically active. This cannot happen if copper sprays and other antibacterial/anti fungals and other chemical pollutants are used. The bacteria in a healthy soil that is biologically activated has the ability to regulate heat within plants, trigger growth promoting hormones, adjust photochemistry (light) and basically provide the enzymes that radically increase chemical reactivity that brings plants to their full potential.
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Hey Frog Valley Farm,
I used to be an Organic purist but I’ve since started using different chemicals/fungicides/insecticide as a last resort. I still believe in feeding the soil food web and taking care of it so that it can feed and take care of my plants.
In my extremely high pH soil, it is difficult to keep everything happy without occasionally adjusting the soil pH and Foliar feeding with minors and trace minerals.
I used to do research on mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria and many of the organisms can actually survive and thrive in harmony with chemical fertilizers and other non organic products. I can’t go into detail because of non disclosure agreements.
My largest LZ tree is growing like gangbusters this year so hopefully it will be able to store up a lot of reserves to hold more fruit with each successive year.
Last time I checked the root zone of my larger LZ tree, there were a ton of worms. This tree has a lot of compost and mulch over the drip zone. I don’t need to give this tree any Nitrogen because it is getting enough from the soil food web.
Simon
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Hey Simon,
It has nothing to do with being either a purist or a polluter it is just management practices. I am able to adjust ph problems with carbon. Of course in your challenged specific location it looks like it would be hard to grow a thick two foot deep living orchard floor of over 20 legumes and 20 different grasses and herbs. Basically it does come down to choice and circumstances. Since I chose to farm Biodynamically I cannot bring in any outside fertility and have a completely closed system. Yes some chemicals are less harsh then others and might help in certain instances with bacteria and fungi but most are pollutants and do more harm then good.. According to recent research the only way to achieve 100% photosynthesis, which i believe we all aspire to do is with natural farming practices. Your Mango tree looks amazing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gw1L4g9G/EBCF3-B21-DC33-4458-8-B34-F2151-B389-A2-A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gw1L4g9G)
All copper sprays kill bacteria, kill frogs and kill aquatic life. We cannot live without bacteria. Plants cannot live without bacteria. Copper sprays do not fix the problems but only camouflage the symptoms I choose to harbor life.
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Maybe I will get a lot of flack for this but I have had an LZ tree now for about 7 years. The first 4 or 5 years were not very productive for me, usually the blooms would get PM and not set much fruit. I did not want to use chemicals of any sort, but I also wanted to enjoy more fruit from one of my absolute favorite mango trees. I finally resorted to spray some copper, usually only once before the blooms in winter, and the production went up significantly. Tree is about 16 feet tall, 10 ft. wide and gave us over 100 mangoes this year, with copper spray X 1. Last year about 70 mangoes and 2 years ago about 40 if memory serves. So if you can spray when blooming, I think you can increase your yield. I am in Brevard county, Fl. Maybe 8 miles from the ocean.
E.
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Simon gave me some LZ budwoods -- thanks Simon -- back in 2016 and the grafts on Manila are big now but have not held a single fruits. About 3 or 4 fruits got to 2.5" then dropped. The tree always had PM but still there were a few fruits formed and growing. I think I will build a big pool next to it like Gary. Heavy dew in April is the reason for PM, even I tried to cover with tarp but didn't help.
Sapote,
I’m glad it’s growing well for you. We may have to just suck it up and begin a spray regimen. I know some people have stated that they sprayed and still got PM but that just tells me that the spray program/chemical/concentration or contact time was not effective.
Simon
Over the weekend I spent sometimes picking the dried leaves and spider web on the mango trees, checking on the fruits and cleaned the scale and mealybugs hiding between the fruits with soapy water. Then I got a big surprise reward: a big Lemon Zest that I never seen before right in front of my eyes!! I passed by this tree everyday but never looked up close at this area and the green fruit blending in well with the leaves. Finally I think I might have one to enjoy after 3 years with Simon’s bud woods. Thank you Simon.
It does look like one of Gary LZ fruits!
(https://i.postimg.cc/CZQWs5yg/lz1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZQWs5yg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BPxk3CjS/lz2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BPxk3CjS)
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Brev Grower, thanks for the information. Looks like you significantly increased your yield so that’s something to be proud of. Lemon Zest is such an amazing fruit that it’s worth the extra effort.
Sapote, congratulations on the LZ fruit! Hopefully it will hold to full maturity for you. How is it doing now? Still holding? For LZ, as soon as you get some yellowing on the skin, it will not be long before it will be ripe and ready to fall off. I gently Palm the fruit and if it falls off, it will ripen properly.
Simon
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I decreased watering to my potted double rootstock LZ and gave it some kelp Emulsion and a lone fruit is still holding. The decrease in watering caused the last vegetative flush to have noticeably smaller leaves. This last fruit may have held anyways, even if I didn’t back off on watering but I was curious. There’s still plenty of time for this fruit to fall off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G8nPh7Xj/7-C558072-8-E9-C-4511-B5-BD-927-D29-B8-DF9-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G8nPh7Xj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dLsByfwH/BD8335-C8-14-F7-48-CD-822-B-830-F75105214.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dLsByfwH)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4K9bGkQd/C7-B4219-F-7-E1-B-4-EF1-BF3-C-9-D721-A5-BCBE7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4K9bGkQd)
Simon
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Wondering if anyone has fruited LZ seedling here in So Cal or in Florida? Mine is 4 yr 7 feet tall and should fruit next season, will use kn03
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Nothing from my LZ seedlings so far but my grafted Orange Sherbet seedlings tried to hold a fruit this year which I removed. Hopefully your tree will Fruit this coming year. Do you remember if you grew out the stronger or weaker seedling? I know you said it was the one that had the strongest smelling sap.
Simon
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I grew the strongest. Out of 7 together one confined to thrive. Sap smell is 10x stronger Mandarin smell than LZ or peach cobbler
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hi Simon so for Lz seems like at least for growth turp is better then la Verne? does anybody knows which rootstock did Gary use?
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No, not really. It depends on your specific growing environment. LZ seems to grow better on LaVern Manilla because it is less droopy. My LZ tree on Florida Turpentine rootstock was extremely droopy but I cut off all the lower branches and I have 4 stakes holding it upright. LZ on Florida Turpentine rootstock also seems to get a lot more dieback and gummosis, at least in my yard.
Last year, I lost about 1/3 my entire canopy to dieback on the Florida rootstock and my LZ on LaVern Manilla rootstock did not dieback at all.
Gary in Palm Springs has a LZ on Florida Turpentine rootstock and it grows great for him. It seems that Florida Turpentine rootstock performs better in areas with more heat units.
My LZ tree on Florida Turpentine rootstock does fine in warm weather but dies back in Winter.
My advice for all growers out there is to plant a variety of rootstocks and see which ones take off. Use the vigorous rootstocks that have adapted well to your soil. Don’t immediately graft your rootstock trees, let them grow out their scaffold branches before top working. This is because as soon as you Graft with mature scions, your tree will fruit within one year, occasionally two.
LZ grows excellent on Kent, Haden and Tommy Atkins rootstock. If you use Champagne/Ataulfo/Manilla rootstocks, don’t Graft onto young seedlings. The LZ scion is too vigorous and can outgrow the rootstock giving you a top heavy tree that can easily snap in half.
My little potted LZ tree is still holding onto that single fruit so things are looking good so far.
Simon
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Spraying with most fungicides has to be done very differently from spraying with most insecticides. Most insecticides should be sprayed only when you see a problem--- an insect infestation already nearing an "economic threshhold."
Most fungicides only work well when you cannot see a problem--- they are sprayed preventively.
A few fungicides are labeled as "curative." These can be used when you already see a fungus started.
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Have you had a full nutritional lab test on leaves before flowering, or before, or at, the time of fruit drop? That might provide an answer.
Topsoil going deficient in WATER at the time of baby fruits usually causes crop abortion.
Within-the-fruit-and-fruit-stem deficiencies of BORON, ZINC, CALCIUM, and MAGNESIUM cause crop abortion.
[I once heard a product vendor claim that Selenium deficiency can contribute to fruit drop--- I have no data to evaluate that, but it sounds interesting.]
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Has anyone tried Brandt's product for increasing fruit set: N-Boost? [I just saw info on it yesterday.]
It contains nutrients and Yeast extract. I have seen reports of experiments using yeast extracts where significant improvement was claimed.
Probably those of you into Bio-Dynamics have worked with yeast?
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I grew the strongest. Out of 7 together one confined to thrive. Sap smell is 10x stronger Mandarin smell than LZ or peach cobbler
What’s up Behl. This sounds promising. Do keep us posted.
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Thanks for all the information Har! I will be sure to use any fungicides as a preventative.
I have not sent in any samples for leaf analysis but other varieties like Venus, grafted onto the same tree has fruited consistently. I made sure to keep the tree well watered during fruit set and I did have the tree on a Nutritional program for some time.
The issue with Lemon Zest is not isolated to just my yard but many yards all across SoCal. Even mango growing guru Leo Manuel has yet to harvest a single fruit from the LZ grafts I put on his tree several years ago.
There was one year where I sprayed my tree with Kelp and yeast extract per this article
http://scihub.org/ABJNA/PDF/2010/3/1-3-421-429.pdf (http://scihub.org/ABJNA/PDF/2010/3/1-3-421-429.pdf)
If I remember correctly, that year, I harvested a single full sized fruit and several nubbins.
The very late bloom and fruit set on my potted LZ may hint that flower opening and fruit set in the heat of summer where fungal load is minimized, is key. Alternatively, if it is fungus that is the major issue, we should be able to come up with an integrated fungal management program to eliminate fungal spores during panicle formation up past fruit set.
What’s boggling my mind is that I had excellent fruit set and fruit simply dropped at the size of 2-3 inches. Watering was consistent and Venus, grafted onto the same tree held its fruit and only LZ dropped most its fruit.
I wonder if fungus may have infected the ovaries early on in fruit set and caused delayed abortion of fruit?
Simon
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I grew the strongest. Out of 7 together one confined to thrive. Sap smell is 10x stronger Mandarin smell than LZ or peach cobbler
What’s up Behl. This sounds promising. Do keep us posted.
I am planning to spray KNO3 this winter to force blooming, and see what happens, I cant wait for it to fruit,
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LZ getting sweeter by the minutes
(https://i.postimg.cc/tYTNrcSC/705-F9-C79-8760-4-DAE-B857-0-D3356513850.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYTNrcSC)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jLFQBhm6/A76-D6-E6-B-4-C00-4717-8-FA0-6-A199-E5051-D9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jLFQBhm6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hhM01n05/F33-BA224-54-A3-4-FE2-BD96-6-FEEC86-C0864.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hhM01n05)
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Frank, thanks for the report. A 23.5% Brix is great, I bet with the heatwave we’re about to get, the mangos will really start to sweeten up. Your Lemon Zest harvest was very respectable.
Simon
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try girdling it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdN4ODVTufc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdN4ODVTufc)
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23 brix is hitting it!
Great info Warren! The thing that confuses me is that my LZ trees have great fruit set but once the fruit get to about 2 inches in size, they tend to drop most their fruit. Then comes a massive growth flush.
Sounds like the fruit to canopy mass is off balance. I'm not going to address LZ in particular, just fruit trees in general. I try to produce plenty of healthy foliage to produce the food that will set blooms and produce and hold the fruit. About 4 weeks ago I tipped all of my mango trees and they put out a massive flush, like this cocktail tree which was a runt this spring having been frozen to the ground but re-grafted. The flush has hardened off since this Oct. 6 pic. Tree also got a foliar hit of Bonzi a while back.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QVB9jrZJ/Cocktail-Mango-PP-JP-OS-Oct6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QVB9jrZJ)
A couple of cheaters to try - apply Bonzi, a PGR, especially if you want to shorten internodes on a leggy variety. It's been used by commercial mango and avocado growers (and me) forever to alter fruit set. 2nd, apply boron in the form of Solubor which is required in very small amounts for good bloom set and fruit retention. I THINK I sent some to Brad. Might wanna check with him. I had some grape shot on some of my grape varieties this year. I forgot to foliar spray the vineyard with boron before bloom.
Since everyone (but me) is on this high K, high Ca kick, apply potassium sulphate and gypsum prior to and during bloom set and play games. K will not promote fruiting, only support it. How much is enough is the question. If 1 pound is good then I guess 5 pounds is mo betta. ;D
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Hey Mark, thanks for the tips. I have never used Bonzi before but that’s good to have in the playbook.
My big LZ tree has a nice canopy and bud are just beginning to push again. We are nearing the end of our heatwave so this push is going to start out vegetative but the nights are in the 50s so there’s a chance it will turn to partial blooms.
I already have a tree that is blooming because of the cold nights.
Here’s a pic of my larger LZ tree
(https://i.postimg.cc/FfrkQZ5V/6-F978-E3-E-5-DEC-41-FF-97-B7-112-C7-D9-C4-CF2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfrkQZ5V)
This tree definitely has enough leaves to support fruit, even if going by Dr Yonemoto’s ratio of 60-80 leaves per fruit. I did make sure to give this tree plenty of Potassium, Calcium and micro plus trace including Boron, up until the point where it dropped all its fruit.
The late set fruit on my potted double rootstock LZ tree is still holding on and has a very slight blush of yellow on the shoulders so it looks like I’ll harvest at least one full sized fruit this year. The late bloom was not bothered by fungal issues.
I may try removing early blooms from my LZ trees in order to get better fruit retention on secondary or tertiary blooms.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sGYKNmRC/F429-B8-A9-AC78-4997-AAD8-375-F45-C301-B4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sGYKNmRC)
Simon
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I may try removing early blooms from my LZ trees in order to get better fruit retention on secondary or tertiary blooms.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sGYKNmRC/F429-B8-A9-AC78-4997-AAD8-375-F45-C301-B4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sGYKNmRC)
Simon
With grapes and flowering on avocados like Reed the primary flowers and fruit set take precedent for me. Epicenter Avocados has a ditty on this botanical favoritism in their FAQ. I'd support the primary and drop the others. Usually the tree does this anyway dropping late fruit set over first set.
Your tree has plenty of foliage, damn good looking tree.
All I can say is good luck!
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Yeah, I hear you Mark. Many of the fruit I grow have better quality early set fruit. My Pomegranates for example. The early set Pomegranates fruit are ginormous and the later set fruit are only half the size of the early fruit.
My issue is that LZ in SoCal blooms very early, it’ll probably bloom within a month, and this coincides with our wet season where fungus thrives. I guess even if I let the early blooms hold on the tree, the tree will re bloom if there is heavy fruit drop.
Simon
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Yeah, I hear you Mark. Many of the fruit I grow have better quality early set fruit. My Pomegranates for example. The early set Pomegranates fruit are ginormous and the later set fruit are only half the size of the early fruit.
My issue is that LZ in SoCal blooms very early, it’ll probably bloom within a month, and this coincides with our wet season where fungus thrives. I guess even if I let the early blooms hold on the tree, the tree will re bloom if there is heavy fruit drop.
Simon
Might be a good idea to spray during your rainy season with a broad spectrum systemic fungicide. Two coppers I have are Physan 35 and Magnabon CS2005. Are also bactericides. Also use Pristine which is pretty hard to beat. It will kick your anthracnose problems too. You only want to use it 3X during the season and rotate it out with other with one or more fungicide group products. Expensive as hell but goes a long way. i split a jug with a friend 12 years ago and still have some that I use on my vineyard and occasionally in the greenhouse. Magnabon is handy too when you have a failed graft that's doing the rot thing into the rootstock. I mix at a rate of 1/2 tsp./qt. spray the cut end and the rest of the stem or trunk. Works well.
While I'm at it because it always comes up, never seal a wound.
https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/wound-sealer.pdf
Wound dressings do:
• seal in moisture and decay
• sometimes serve as a food source for pathogens
• prevent wound wood from forming
• inhibit compartmentalization
• eventually crack, exposing the tree to pathogens
Wound dressings do not:
• prevent entrance of decay organisms
• stop rot
For some inexplicable reason, some people are compelled to “manage” a process that plants have evolved
over millions of years. Every year, trees form hundreds of tiny abscission layers as leaves senesce and
fall. Wounds left from branch breakage are callused over and compartmentalized. But look at this
advice from another web site with something to sell:
• “Bark with cracks. This is a natural (emphasis mine) occurrence in the growth of trees & shrubs.
Where cracking occurs in the lower wood it is probably caused by flooding after a long period of
dryness. Cracks in the trunk should be painted with a tree wound dressing or bituminous paint to
prevent the invasion of fungal diseases”
It’s important to recognize that trees do not heal. Instead, they......
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Great info Mark! The only time I cover/wrap the wound is when I’m bark grafting a large branch. If not wrapped, the union will dry up. I believe you are speaking more toward trimming trees or removing large branches?
Simon
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Here’s a closer look at one of my main problems. It’s still October and my LZ is already beginning to bloom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bGGgRFRL/1-A4935-C5-0-FC6-4-D8-F-BE22-A476-EDD35-AF4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bGGgRFRL)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CZDPgQf5/1-A7-B38-F7-E0-D9-4-D41-B502-CC73-D520328-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZDPgQf5)
Simon
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Mine hasn't budged yet, but Val-Carrie is pushing mixed bloom, and Maha had barely hardened off its last flush, but now it's going for a full bloom.
Is that such a problem? I figure it will start flushing leaves eventually, no need to let it fruit.
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Here’s a closer look at one of my main problems. It’s still October and my LZ is already beginning to bloom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bGGgRFRL/1-A4935-C5-0-FC6-4-D8-F-BE22-A476-EDD35-AF4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bGGgRFRL)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CZDPgQf5/1-A7-B38-F7-E0-D9-4-D41-B502-CC73-D520328-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZDPgQf5)
Simon
You can always snap off the entire flower cluster off before they open.
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I bought 7 gallon LZ trees from Zill at the end of October 2019 so yes Zill is still selling LZ trees.
I have close to 40 and here is an observation about 1 problem with some of them. Most are healthy and fantastic. Some when taken from the nursery had blackish branches. These trees have been a struggle to keep looking healthy. I think the black colored branches is anthracnose. Most of my normal LZ’s produce normal green leaves but the infected ones have a strong tendency to produce yellow and white leaves with black spots. This is a continual struggle to remove those branches and leaves and hope new ones come in healthy. I’d say 20% of my LZ’s have this problem to some degree. Some grow out of it. I haven’t had to pull any LZ trees out yet in 5 years but I always feel frustrated about this. I think that with love and care they’ll grow out of it. I wish there was a fungicidal drench that was systemic that would wipe out this infection. In a few weeks it will be pre emergence spraying time again and I hope that this year Abound takes care of this problem. But the 11 I bought 3 weeks ago from Zill are super healthy. I didn’t know any better when I took home the sick ones.
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I wish there was a fungicidal drench that was systemic that would wipe out this infection
There is which I've mentioned plenty of times - Magnabon CS2005 or Phyton 35. Do a soil drench AND foliar spray. Spray should be at a rate of 2tsp/gallon. Include 1 tsp. of a non ionic surfactant or you're be pissin' into the wind.
There are others like Pristine but it's pretty pricey.
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I wish there was a fungicidal drench that was systemic that would wipe out this infection
There is which I've mentioned plenty of times - Magnabon CS2005 or Phyton 35. Do a soil drench AND foliar spray. Spray should be at a rate of 2tsp/gallon. Include 1 tsp. of a non ionic surfactant or you're be pissin' into the wind.
There are others like Pristine but it's pretty pricey.
Mark, the active ingredient is Copper Sulphate Pentahydrate, right? I'm asking because those brands are not for sell in Europe but the CSP can be bought pure.
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Correct
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Thanks ;)
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I was finally able to coax a fruit out of my Double Stone Grafted Lemon Zest tree. I gifted this tree to Leo Manuel several years ago hoping it would produce a dwarf like tree that would be easy to harvest from but after several years in the ground at his place, it never held any fruit and it grew much too slow.
Last year(2019), we dug up the tree and I stuck it into a pot and took it home and after establishing in the pot, it set a late bloom and held several fruit and slowly, each fruit dropped off until there was only one left.
Here’s a picture of the fruit several days ago when it was still holding on the tree.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yWHJ82ff/29-E481-EC-BB53-451-A-91-BD-C517864773-A8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWHJ82ff)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hf4f9TRT/6-B5-C0-D0-D-3-FE2-4-E58-8274-FD396-B938275.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hf4f9TRT)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JGTtK0Rg/DB6-D76-EB-4805-4-C0-A-A7-B6-F942-F5-B22-A12.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JGTtK0Rg)
Normally, as soon as the LZ fruit gets some yellow on it, it will fall off within several days. In the Winter, this fruit was showing yellow for about three weeks before it came off in my hands as I palmed the fruit to check for ripeness.
This fruit has an extremely strong citrus scent, hopefully it won’t be a dud. Here’s the harvested fruit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vgzGB2Bj/1-A58-C54-A-866-A-46-EF-80-B3-3-A07-BE7-C6720.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vgzGB2Bj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/grzY5ptP/B336-C79-A-4-B3-D-4-A7-F-927-F-71-E086-F17924.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/grzY5ptP)
Simon
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I was finally able to coax a fruit out of my Double Stone Grafted Lemon Zest tree. I gifted this tree to Leo Manuel several years ago hoping it would produce a dwarf like tree that would be easy to harvest from but after several years in the ground at his place, it never held any fruit and it grew much too slow.
Last year(2019), we dug up the tree and I stuck it into a pot and took it home and after establishing in the pot, it set a late bloom and held several fruit and slowly, each fruit dropped off until there was only one left.
Here’s a picture of the fruit several days ago when it was still holding on the tree.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yWHJ82ff/29-E481-EC-BB53-451-A-91-BD-C517864773-A8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWHJ82ff)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hf4f9TRT/6-B5-C0-D0-D-3-FE2-4-E58-8274-FD396-B938275.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hf4f9TRT)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JGTtK0Rg/DB6-D76-EB-4805-4-C0-A-A7-B6-F942-F5-B22-A12.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JGTtK0Rg)
Normally, as soon as the LZ fruit gets some yellow on it, it will fall off within several days. In the Winter, this fruit was showing yellow for about three weeks before it came off in my hands as I palmed the fruit to check for ripeness.
This fruit has an extremely strong citrus scent, hopefully it won’t be a dud. Here’s the harvested fruit.
Simon
Nice job, enjoy.
I had a Glenn like that. The smell was so rich it was nauseating as it sat on my office desk.
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Ok, so I’ve been letting nature take its course with my LZ tree on Florida rootstock and I had three blooms this year and non of them set fruit. We had lots of rain this year and this is the worst Powdery Mildew year I can recall. Oddly enough, my LZ on LaVern Manilla has almost no PM and has set a good amount of fruit on the few bloom panicles it has this year.
My LZ tree on Florida rootstock is so heavily infected with PM that it looks like it’s snowing if I shake the tree. Every single new leaf has PM and the bloom panicles were just completely covered as well.
I don’t have my trees on an integrated pest management(IPM) program and this LZ tree on Florida rootstock only gives me a couple fruit about every year or other year. I have multiple LZ trees and my LZ on LaVern Manilla also gets PM but not as bad and it also produces more fruit and more consistently. My LZ on Manilla was about 50% shaded by the fence and two large neighboring trees so it has not grown much in the last several years but a couple weeks ago, I chopped down one of the neighboring trees so it can get more sun now.
Here is a picture from my LZ on Florida rootstock, picture taken 2 years ago when it was absolutely covered in blooms in a year with minimal PM. The blooms were huge with extremely heavy fruit set and the fruit grew to about 1-2 inches in length before they all dropped one by one and leaving me with only about 1-2 fruit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WhH0pV7J/7675-B216-CCB6-4-C08-9-F33-EBDF5-E371180.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WhH0pV7J)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2V64fynD/8-DD995-D9-CB44-46-A1-8-F7-B-9-D93004-D3-F5-C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2V64fynD)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JsHZGFTY/99-BE6407-7-EFE-496-E-9156-3-A9-EF78583-CD.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JsHZGFTY)
Simon
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This year, the tree looks like this
(https://i.postimg.cc/xccb47Sj/63-BEEB48-A65-E-4706-A572-72-BDFF2-FB31-C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xccb47Sj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sn9YyMsw/6732-BB2-C-3-F24-4-A9-F-BB23-2-EB651-B8099-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Sn9YyMsw)
My LZ on LaVern Manilla set fruit this year on just about every panicle with some marble sized fruit still holding on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JG6S1sgc/450-ADC0-C-3-C44-4-D0-A-BD2-C-08-B9285-C5-C65.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JG6S1sgc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QVjz1gZJ/60796479-E762-4-C76-BE4-C-2308363-ECBDA.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QVjz1gZJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dkYxWrkv/6-E20024-B-1382-44-A6-9-CDA-FFD7-EA6-BD847.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dkYxWrkv)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Tzm079J/C7-BCD93-B-6-E7-D-41-D0-B938-714-A07-BB955-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6Tzm079J)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TpwHHRwy/DC38-EFD0-49-B8-455-A-A706-64-FC45-DCA103.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TpwHHRwy)
Simon
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Starting this year, I will begin an IPM program on the LZ on Florida rootstock to see if I can get it to produce more fruit next year. I will begin by removing all the leaf litter and and cleaning up the tree a bit by trimming out diseased and dying branches.
Once everything is cleaned up, I will begin my spray regimen. Before I get into that, I want to give a little information on the different groups of fungicides out there. I am in no way an expert on disease management in Mangos, or any other fruiting crops, so please chime in if you have any corrections, suggestions or comments.
This article gives a good breakdown on the different groupings of fungicides
https://ipm.ifas.ufl.edu/resources/success_stories/t&pguide/pdfs/Appendices/Appendix6-FRAC.pdf
Simon
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Fantastic @simon_grow - hopefully the tree will hang on to a lot of those little fruits!
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You should do your homework before using any fungicides and definitely wear the appropriate protective gear to stay safe. If these fungicides are used haphazardly, they can be dangerous to you and your plants. Not only that but there is a good chance that the organisms will build up resistance to that fungicide.
You must read the product label and follow their recommendations for use. In general, you need to rotate fungicides from different group classifications in order minimize the chances of the organisms building up resistance.
There are some good fungicides out there that are OMRI listed like the Magnabon CS 2005 which is a systemic Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate.
For my Copper fungicide, I decided to go with Phyton 35, thanks Mark, because it was easier to find and they sell it in volumes less than 1 gallon, I got the 1 liter size. Phyton 35 is also a systemic Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate but it is not OMRI listed. This fungicide is in group M1.
Some other fungicides I will be using is:
mono and di potassium salts of phosphorous acid such as Garden Phos which is fungicide group 33.
Sulphur such as Orchard spray, group M2
And the heavy hitters that I will use if the above don’t work:
Abound- a systemic Azoxystrobin in group 11. It targets complex 3 of fungal respiration(ubiquinol oxidase). A friend of mine bought me a gallon of this and you have to be extremely careful using this because organisms can build up resistance rapidly if used incorrectly. This product has saved the lives of many trees for myself and for some of my friends with dying trees.
Rally- a systemic Myclobutanil, group 3. It interferes with sterol biosynthesis.
Quintec- a non-systemic quinolone that is proposed to interfere with cell signaling. This product is registered in CA and I selected it based on its unique mode of action in inhibiting specifically Powdery Mildew. It is the only FRAC group 13 fungicide registered in the US.
I will go into a bit more detail later but one of the most important factors in my IPM is the spreader/sticker I will be using.
I will be using two different formulations of Nufilm. Nufilm-17 and Nufilm-P. One is longer lasting.
Simon
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I forgot to mention I will also be using one of the corn+soybean oil products such as GrowSafe.
I plan on not using Abound, Rally, Phyton 35 and Quintec but we are not only battling PM here. We have Phomopsis, Anthracnose and other fungal diseases that kill many mango trees each year.
My hope is that I can use the more benign fungicides on my entire orchard to knock down the fungal population and then spray regularly to keep the population down. The Nufilm should be able to keep these fungicides on the leaves for an extended period of time and prevent the rain from washing off the active ingredients.
Simon
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After much thought, I decided I won’t be spraying chemicals on my LZ tree. Mostly because I’m lazy when it comes to spraying but also because my Lemon Zest on Lavern Manilla and other random seedling rootstock is able to hold fruit to maturity.
Several months ago, I top worked every branch on my Florida Turpentine rootstock Lemon Zest with Sweet Tart, Pineapple Pleasure, Venus, E4, M4, E4 seedling, Pina Colada Seedling, CAC and Ice Cream. Over the past 5 years, I probably harvested only 4-5 full sized Lemon Zest from this relatively large tree.
I’m fairly confident this tree would have eventually produced more fruit as it got much larger but it is in a prime location with full sun and I want more production from it sooner rather than later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CRnJY1zS/481-C5-E9-C-0-F49-498-E-B778-833-EEB7-CA2-F7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CRnJY1zS)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yD2QSRwD/70-B3-CEC4-3-D2-A-4551-B0-EF-8-A10-CBB6726-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yD2QSRwD)
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Here’s a Lemon Zest fruit that fell off in my hand today. As soon as I see a yellow blush on the Lemon Zest, I gently palm the fruit until it is parallel to the ground and if it falls off, it will be perfectly ripe after ripening a bit more on the counter. This is one of the best techniques for harvesting many varieties of mango in SoCal.
This tree produced a cluster of 5 fruit in one bunch. Each fruit is approximately 1 lbs. I brought a ripe Lemon Zest to the fruit tasting and it only had a Brix of 22% but everyone that got a piece was saying it was the one of the best mango they’ve ever eaten.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1498Zjfz/9-B871056-2-E2-F-4284-8301-BFDE61-EA618-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1498Zjfz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5jN2rQRY/AD72680-D-006-E-4428-A090-F59-F7-BB621-EA.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5jN2rQRY)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G4MQkyVF/00-C449-DA-F90-C-4-B37-87-ED-7-EF7781-B7683.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G4MQkyVF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V0y4JPT2/BFCE3-C80-E555-4116-B6-BC-EE4301659140.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/V0y4JPT2)
This tree is shaded by a fence and two large trees on either side. It has grown past the fence line so hopefully the additional sunlight next Summer will help it grow larger and produce more fruit.
Simon
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Here’s potentially, next years Lemon Zest fruit. This bloom/fruit set is a Lemon Zest grafted onto Fairchild seedling rootstock
(https://i.postimg.cc/DW8tsFjz/E013-B32-F-CB7-F-405-D-926-C-46-F96-E3069-DE.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DW8tsFjz)
Lemon Zest was the best tasting mango I had this year but it is not my favorite mango to grow because of disease and production issues. My overall best mango is Sweet Tart because it tastes excellent, grows well, produces well and is disease resistant.
Still, I just absolutely love love love Lemon Zest for the absolutely incredibly rich, sweet citrusy flavor and the smooth texture. The fruit that I just harvested today had a tiny bit of clear sap at the stem end that has an intense citrus zest aroma.
Simon
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Have any left? If so, I’ll start looking at airfare...LZ, it’s that good. The good Dr. Campbell says he trees take more than a decade to hit their prime. I’m willing to wait.
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So much resourceful information Simon 🙂 A couple of walking enclycopedias around here!
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Really cool Simon. You're doing a great job on your grafting and mango growth.
I plan to focus on vegetative growth on my Lemon Zest mango tree on Ataulfo rootstock for the next several years. The tree is still relatively small and only 8' tall but I hope over time it will really fill out and gain more height. Interesting I had no disease issues in 2020 and did not have to spray my Lemon Zest tree at all. Overall growth was good. Because of 2020/21 La Nina, we will likely have above-average temperatures this winter which is good for our sub-tropical fruit trees. The only downside of the La Nina is the lack of rainfall.
Thanks for all of the useful information over the years. Included in a photo of my Lemon Zest I took a few days ago.
Johnny
(https://i.postimg.cc/PLqkzHLJ/8-U1-A5612-Lemon-Zest-Mango-Tree-after-2020-Growth-11-22-2020.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PLqkzHLJ)
California Grown young Lemon Zest Tree
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Have any left? If so, I’ll start looking at airfare...LZ, it’s that good. The good Dr. Campbell says he trees take more than a decade to hit their prime. I’m willing to wait.
Future, there’s three more fruit hanging on my LZ on Lavern Manilla and you’re always welcome here. You can visit Leo too if you stop by. It must have been 5+ years since we all met up. I just wear a mask and avoid contact with Leo when I visit.
Simon
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So much resourceful information Simon 🙂 A couple of walking enclycopedias around here!
Thanks tropicalgalaxy3000, just collecting data so hopefully those of us living in more humid climates can fruit the wonderful Lemon Zest.
Johnny, your tree is looking great! If you didn’t get PM this year, maybe you live in an area that is a bit more arid and less favorable for PM.
I don’t want to scare people away from LZ, I have many issues with LZ because my climate is perfect for the spores. I get lots of moisture at my location and I’m in a flat area where there is very little wind. The stagnant air combined with the humidity and moderate temps seems to proliferate PM.
I believe that areas with better airflow will have better success with fruiting LZ.
Simon
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I planted LZ in an exposed location. Time will tell.
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Very impressive Simon! LZ is a winner fer sure.