Author Topic: 2-3 mango trees in one hole  (Read 10919 times)

merce3

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2-3 mango trees in one hole
« on: September 29, 2015, 05:48:10 PM »
i have read a few posts about planting multiple mango trees in one hole and was wondering how fruit production and vigor is impacted. i have always been told that the plants will compete with one another until one eventually wins and the other dies. i tried searching the forum, but didn't see anything about the advantages versus disadvantages. i do see a few members are doing it though. i just wonder why they would plant them together versus multigrafting a single tree.

simon_grow

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2015, 06:31:26 PM »
I have many plants, mostly stone fruit, that I have planted at my friends house but I just planted my two in one Hole mango yesterday. This site has a lot of information and was my guide for my plantings at my friends house. http://www.davewilson.com/home-gardens/backyard-orchard-culture

One reason to plant multiple trees in one hole instead of multigrafting is that you give each variety a better chance of survival. For multigraft trees, you have to keep each variety in check so that it doesn't take over. For multigraft trees, I've also had some varieties, grafted lower, that pushed growth but eventually got shaded out and died.

You will have similar issues with multiple trees in one hole but at least each variety will have its own root system to nurture it. For multiple trees in one hole, as with multigraft trees, you have to be careful what varieties and what rootstocks you put together. For example, you don't want a vigorous variety with a slow grower.

Simon

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2015, 10:14:58 PM »
I have many plants, mostly stone fruit, that I have planted at my friends house but I just planted my two in one Hole mango yesterday. This site has a lot of information and was my guide for my plantings at my friends house. http://www.davewilson.com/home-gardens/backyard-orchard-culture

One reason to plant multiple trees in one hole instead of multigrafting is that you give each variety a better chance of survival. For multigraft trees, you have to keep each variety in check so that it doesn't take over. For multigraft trees, I've also had some varieties, grafted lower, that pushed growth but eventually got shaded out and died.

You will have similar issues with multiple trees in one hole but at least each variety will have its own root system to nurture it. For multiple trees in one hole, as with multigraft trees, you have to be careful what varieties and what rootstocks you put together. For example, you don't want a vigorous variety with a slow grower.

Simon

Really? This is news to us, considering Behl. Ashok and I got the majority of our crop from our cocktail trees. Multi grafted trees is the best option for backyard growers who have limited space but want to grow many varieties. 

simon_grow

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2015, 12:34:20 AM »
I feel that multigrafted trees are a space saver but from my personal experience, I have seen more dominance issues with multigrafted trees than with multiple trees in one hole. The majority of fruit trees in my yard are multigraft and the majority of stone fruits I planted at my friends house is multiple trees in a single hole. I'll post pictures next time I stop by his house.

I have a multigraft Mango tree with 15 grafts, 11 different varieties and it is difficult to control the rate of growth on specific vigorous varieties like Lemon Zest. My Lemon Zest has flushed three times in the last 6 months but my Mallika and NDM have not flushed once in that same time period. This is my fault for grafting both slow and vigorous growers on the same tree but still shows my point.

I also have purchased 5 in 1 Asian Pears, Apples, Citrus and inter specific hybrids and one of the varieties, usually lower down the trunk will be much weaker and eventually dies off.

JF, you Behl and Ashok know what you are doing and grafted varieties with similar growth rates onto your trees so your trees will not likely run into as many issues as I have experienced. Careful pruning to establish strong scaffold branches of each variety should be key. I agree that multigraft trees are the best option for small yards but want to grow many varieties.

Simon

rliou

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2015, 10:19:02 AM »
I would agree with simon.  I have a multigrafted peach/plum/apricot and the plum dominated and is quit difficult to control.  For my pluots and aprium i decided to plant four trees in a large hole and the growth is much more controllable.

My thoughts are that if u multigraft, u need to graft scions of similar vigor.  I know it wont be perfect match but u should probably put the ones that flush more on the lower branchs.  Otherwise the flushes will shade out the lower branches.  I find pruning the vigorous top branches difficult as it just cause more flushes and branchin which will shade the bottom branch more.  Unless u plan to prune on a daily basis
Robert

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2015, 11:34:38 AM »
I would agree with simon.  I have a multigrafted peach/plum/apricot and the plum dominated and is quit difficult to control.  For my pluots and aprium i decided to plant four trees in a large hole and the growth is much more controllable.

My thoughts are that if u multigraft, u need to graft scions of similar vigor.  I know it wont be perfect match but u should probably put the ones that flush more on the lower branchs.  Otherwise the flushes will shade out the lower branches.  I find pruning the vigorous top branches difficult as it just cause more flushes and branchin which will shade the bottom branch more.  Unless u plan to prune on a daily basis

You can agree or disagree but the fact is cocktail mango trees have perform very well here in SoCal. With little pruning you can manage each varieties. Check the link below this was Eunice's 40 year old cocktail tree that produces a heavy crop each

My 4 N 1 perfectly balance and ready to produce a good crop next year



http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=2992.0

merce3

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2015, 08:03:46 PM »
thanks for all the responses. how about the competition between trees planted in the same hole? will one eventually kill the other?

simon_grow

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2015, 10:28:17 PM »
It should not kill off one tree if planted correctly. You can see large trees planted in one in this video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lo3_u08CwdY

Simon

merce3

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2015, 10:55:32 PM »
^Thanks a lot for sharing.

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2015, 07:40:47 AM »
The issue is really not which method will work better from the standpoint of producing fruit.  Both methods will work.  Multiple trees probably allow for less ongoing pruning in order to maintain the balance of the various cultivars.  Clearly, however, even with multiple trees in one hole, one tree can shade out and even eventually kill a sister tree in the same hole if there is large enough disparity in growth habit and no corrective pruning done.  My question and concern is whether multiple grafts on the same tree affect the season of production.  I have no conclusive proof or thought on this but I have seen varieties that were multi grafted produce in seasons that they do not ordinarily produce.  Was this just an anomaly of one year or a real issue, I am not sure.  You guys with multiple grafted trees will have to follow up on this. Obviously, with multiple trees in one hole, this would not be an issue.
Harry
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USA

simon_grow

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2015, 11:10:08 AM »
Very good point Harry,

Both methods are great for getting more varieties of fruit into a smaller space with the multigraft trees having the advantage of more varieties in a smaller footprint as it may be difficult to plant 11 varieties into one hole whereas 11 varieties grafted onto one tree is no big deal. Both varieties require very careful management, especially the first several years.

I have used a hybrid aporoach by multigrafting my friends 3 trees in one hole and I am considering doing the same with mangos. Imagine three multigrafted mangos in one hole, each with several different varieties grafted on. One can have a veritable mango orchard in one planting hole. This concept will require extreme attention to details and very deliberate pruning cuts but I think the outcome will be very rewarding for the owner of such trees.

The only thing more extreme than this would be to plant multigrafted, multiple rootstock trees, multiple trees in one hole. I can imagine there will be a great deal of root competition but if all trees survive, the competing roots may help keep all trees maintain a smaller stature due to competition of resources.

I now have four two-in-one mango trees in the ground but they are all planted with an experiment in mind. One of four is two Double Stone Grafted trees planted in one hole, two of four is a DSGed planted with a an in situ grafted single rootstock tree, three of four is a Florida Grafted tree(Spirit of 76) with about a 1.5 inch caliper trunk that is five feet tall planted with an in situ grafted single rootstock dwarf variety(Julie) that is about 6 inches tall. Four of four is what some may consider a semi dwarf Florida rootstock tree(Carrie) with about a .75 inch caliper trunk that is about four feet tall planted with an in situ single grafted medium vigorous grower(Gary). I will keep everyone posted on the progress of these trees.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2015, 11:36:22 AM »
Here is a picture of two DSGed trees, one is a Dot, the other is a Dupuis Saigon. These trees were planted just a couple days ago.


Next is a DSGed Lemon Zest with a single rootstock in situ grafted Ugly Betty. The Ugly Betty was grafted on 09/18/15 and is just starting to push through the parafilm.

Number three is the Florida rootstock larger tree( Spirit of 76) next to a single rootstock tiny in situ grafted Julie. The Julie was grafted on 09/18/15 and is just starting to push through the parafilm.

Number four is my Florida grafted Carrie, holding fruit next to a single rootstock in situ grafted Gary. The Gary was grafted on 09/18/15 and is just starting to push through the parafilm.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2015, 12:04:12 PM »
Here is a shot of my multigraft tree, I just counted and there are 13 varieties grafted on with three other varieties that initially pushed new growth but later died off. The varieties that died off are Carrie, Kent and Maha Chanok. These are the varieties that are currently on the tree: Green Thai, Pineapple pleasure, Manilla, imam Passand, 3xLZ, Kesar, Jumbo Kesar, 2xGary, Julie, 2x experimental, Malika, Julie, NDM.

I trimmed back most of the growth from the varieties that were grafted a year ago in order to give the newly grafted varieties a better chance. You can see the Imam Passand on the lower portion of the tree may eventually fail even though it was grafted more than a year ago and has pushed one vegetative flush and one bloom.

Simon

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2015, 02:01:14 PM »
I've been attempting to obtain a multi grafted citrus tree since a couple of years, but i have hard time grafting the FD rootstock.
Also, i have planted a couple of avocado seeds in a hole using the method suggested by simon_grow. So I can't really comment on both method (aside the fact that i hope to be able to manage the avocados). But i can tell you for sure that is well know for some trees that, in case of root grafts, the nutrients move from the leaves of the healthy tree to the weaker "parasite" tree, keeping it somehow alive. So, depending on the specie behaviour,  2 trees 1 hole may be the way to go if you hope to keep the less vigorous plant alive longer.
Italian fruit forum

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JF

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2015, 08:55:45 PM »
The issue is really not which method will work better from the standpoint of producing fruit.  Both methods will work.  Multiple trees probably allow for less ongoing pruning in order to maintain the balance of the various cultivars.  Clearly, however, even with multiple trees in one hole, one tree can shade out and even eventually kill a sister tree in the same hole if there is large enough disparity in growth habit and no corrective pruning done.  My question and concern is whether multiple grafts on the same tree affect the season of production.  I have no conclusive proof or thought on this but I have seen varieties that were multi grafted produce in seasons that they do not ordinarily produce.  Was this just an anomaly of one year or a real issue, I am not sure.  You guys with multiple grafted trees will have to follow up on this. Obviously, with multiple trees in one hole, this would not be an issue.

Harry that's a very good question. Our mangos ripen so much later than you guys that our seasons tend to overlap. In Socal the seasons are not clearly defined like in South Florida. In addition our mangos grow at a much slower pace due to our climate and rootstock issues. I have 2 in 1 hole 4 in 1 hole triple stone graft and base on my personal experience in the last 4 years with these methods I'm sticking to cocktail trees. Eunice's 40 year old multi-grafted mango is a perfect example how to maintain a productive mango tree in Socal with 4 varieties.

bsbullie

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2015, 07:45:49 AM »
When planting multiple trees in one hole, the issue that would cause the most concerns with me are the "battling" root balls.

If choising the right varieties,  and limiting the number of varieties,  multi grafting can be done without much need to prune one variety or the other.  I am speaking of mangoes here.  As far as citrus, multi grafting is a mess and will almost always cause issues with something taking over heavy pruning being required which ultimately leads to lack of quality production.
- Rob

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2015, 02:07:33 PM »
Simon, what is your rootstock of that multi grafted tree? I disagree with your claims on multi grafted tree to not be considered. You should really come see my yard.  Of course if you mix vigrous and dwarf varities you will have to deal with the consequences.  I have 18 multi grafted trees ranging from 3 varieties to 14.

Harry, yes Harry, multi grafted trees did make a difference in mango production for me. We grafted mylee at JF, Ashok, and my yards two years ago. In got fruit on one tree last year and they didnt. This year my that tree skipped fruiting in mylee graft but mylee graft on another graft fruited. This is perfect example of how you can have mangoes every year of the same variety.

In addition, there are more benefits than harm in having multi grafted grees, biggest one is space and being able to have more varieties woth limited space.

I find Simons claims as dumbfounded as we have over 4 orchards with living examples of how nicely cocktail trees do. You have to know what you are doing though. Don't graft 15 varieties. Keep it to 3-4. Don't mix vigrous and dwarf.

Heck, anyone can cone to my yard and see my cherimoya trees have over 8 varieties and all loaded with fruits.  I would like to let folks read this and not be discouraged by failed attempts of others. If done right, it is very rewarding.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 02:28:16 PM by behlgarden »

JF

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2015, 03:30:12 PM »
Simon, what is your rootstock of that multi grafted tree? I disagree with your claims on multi grafted tree to not be considered. You should really come see my yard.  Of course if you mix vigrous and dwarf varities you will have to deal with the consequences.  I have 18 multi grafted trees ranging from 3 varieties to 14.

Harry, yes Harry, multi grafted trees did make a difference in mango production for me. We grafted mylee at JF, Ashok, and my yards two years ago. In got fruit on one tree last year and they didnt. This year my that tree skipped fruiting in mylee graft but mylee graft on another graft fruited. This is perfect example of how you can have mangoes every year of the same variety.

In addition, there are more benefits than harm in having multi grafted grees, biggest one is space and being able to have more varieties woth limited space.

I find Simons claims as dumbfounded as we have over 4 orchards with living examples of how nicely cocktail trees do. You have to know what you are doing though. Don't graft 15 varieties. Keep it to 3-4. Don't mix vigrous and dwarf.

Heck, anyone can cone to my yard and see my cherimoya trees have over 8 varieties and all loaded with fruits.  I would like to let folks read this and not be discouraged by failed attempts of others. If done right, it is very rewarding.

Behl
I'll take pix of my 2 in 1 hole Alfonso/Ataulfo which have been multi grafted in the last 2 years with nearly 30 varieties

simon_grow

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2015, 12:27:34 AM »
Simon, what is your rootstock of that multi grafted tree? I disagree with your claims on multi grafted tree to not be considered. You should really come see my yard.  Of course if you mix vigrous and dwarf varities you will have to deal with the consequences.  I have 18 multi grafted trees ranging from 3 varieties to 14.

Harry, yes Harry, multi grafted trees did make a difference in mango production for me. We grafted mylee at JF, Ashok, and my yards two years ago. In got fruit on one tree last year and they didnt. This year my that tree skipped fruiting in mylee graft but mylee graft on another graft fruited. This is perfect example of how you can have mangoes every year of the same variety.

In addition, there are more benefits than harm in having multi grafted grees, biggest one is space and being able to have more varieties woth limited space.

I find Simons claims as dumbfounded as we have over 4 orchards with living examples of how nicely cocktail trees do. You have to know what you are doing though. Don't graft 15 varieties. Keep it to 3-4. Don't mix vigrous and dwarf.

Heck, anyone can cone to my yard and see my cherimoya trees have over 8 varieties and all loaded with fruits.  I would like to let folks read this and not be discouraged by failed attempts of others. If done right, it is very rewarding.

Hello Behl,

My multigraft is on La Vern Manilla and only gets half sun.

I believe there is some confusion as to what I actually wrote. Nowhere did I write "multigrafted trees to not be considered". As everyone can see, none of my posts on this thread have been edited and I've looked twice and still I can't find anywhere I wrote that comment. Can you please show me where I wrote that? As for the dumbfounded claims, I'm not going to reply any further until someone can show me where I said for "multigrafted trees to not be considered".

In fact, I even suggested planting three multigraft trees in one hole. I did also mention that most of my orchard is multigrafted trees so I'm not sure where one would come up with the idea that I said for "multigrafted trees to not be considered"? 

I spoke from personal experience when I said that I have had three grafts die on my multigrafted mango tree yet none of the stone fruit that I planted ( 2 in 1 and 3 in 1 hole) at my friends house has died. This is not a mango to mango comparison and from what I can find on the Internet, this technique is too new to draw any conclusions, for mangos at least.

I repeat, I think multigrafted trees are great, most of my orchard is multigrafted. I have simply experienced die off from some grafts of multiple rootstock trees where none of the trees I've planted 2 in 1 or 3 in 1 hole has died. There are other reports of people who have experienced dieing off of specific grafts on multigrafted trees.
http://www.daleysfruit.com.au/forum/trees-in-one-hole/
http://www.permies.com/mobile/t/14508/plants/Multi-Grafted-Fruit-Trees?foo=a

Behl, as some may already know, I love to experiment. My grafting of vigorous and slower growing varieties onto the same tree is to test the limits of what can be done. I like testing out what one should Not do in order to learn from the experience. This is one of the reasons I planted combos that do not make sense such as my in situ grafted Julie next to a several years old Spirit of 76. I am very curious by nature and I am not easily satisfied by status quo. I try to think outside the box in order to test limits in order to advance the hobby in transformative ways.

I am relatively new to growing mango and please excuse me if any of my words were misinterpreted but please read carefully as I believe you were not purposefully trying to be a spin doctor. I highly respect JF and Behl and wish to continue learning from the two of you and also from others out there with any knowledge to contribute.

Merce3, i apologize for going off on a tangent but feel that lots of good points were brought up. I have both multigraft mango trees and multiple mango trees in one hole and will continue to update with the progress of these trees so that we may all learn more about these two techniques which I am only just recently learning about.

I know that there are a lot of people with fruitful multigraft mango trees, Patrick from this forum for one.  I love multigraft trees for its utility in small yards. There is not much information out there regarding multiple mango trees in one hole but hopefully those that have used this technique will share results so that we can all learn from each other.

Simon

behlgarden

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2015, 12:54:29 AM »
Simon, no worries. Your posts were inferring as such. I just wanted folks to not shy away from trying multi grafting.

Dying of grafts is a normal process. Not all takes last beyond the first season, most do. I have had grafts push and sit there for 18 months and not grow further while some took off after 12 months, some end up dying. It's probably compatibility that delays takes and eventual death of scion.

Anyway, I think you are on to testing and it's all good here too. We all learn something new everyday. Please don't take my comments personal as it were in the context of the inferred content.

simon_grow

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2015, 01:06:04 AM »
Hello Behl,

It's all good in the neighborhood. I appologize if it seemed as if I was inferring it was a bad idea to plant multigraft trees. Let me make it clear, it is a good idea to plant multigraft trees as there are many members here that have already shown it works. Multiple mango trees in one hole is relatively new and I'm hoping to learn more about the ups and downs of this technique. Cheers,

Simon

merce3

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2016, 03:50:29 PM »
Bumping this back up ... Sorry I missed all of the responses. I am thinking of double planting and multigrafting. My only concern is that I am on the brim of 9a/b. I have seen 20-30 foot mango trees in the area, but would double planting increase susceptibility to disease or cold damage due to decreased vigor? Also, would Rosigold and Fruit Punch be compatible? I know FP is a new variety, but hopefully someone has info on its growth habit.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 03:53:55 PM by merce3 »

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2016, 04:03:32 PM »
No, R osi and FP would not be good.  Rosi is smaller and more compact.  FP is of medium plus vigor.

I know it fruits early which some look at as a plus but otherwise thwre are not that many other redeeming qualities with it.  Also, as i have stated, i would not recommend planting multie trees in one hole, but this is just my 2 pennies worth of advice.
- Rob

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2016, 05:42:01 PM »
Apologies - never grew mangoes except the Phils and Oz so I don't know much.

But in the Phils we have a very vigorous mango (small, sour fruits stay green even when ripe) we call Indian Mango (which is actually a misnomer as it is the real native Phil mango).
http://www.philippine-islands.ph/en/indian_mango-aid_28.html

This is what we usually use for triple rootstock - have seen people use it for all three rootstocks during the inital rootstock grafting then topwork it with improved varieties a year or so after being planted in the ground.

The usual method is to just use one or two of it in a triple rootstock setup, the third being the variety that will be eventually left to grow as the dominant tree.

What I'm getting at is instead of planting multiple individual trees in one hole get a multi rootstock set up - pref a variety that grows well in your area then multigraft it - which was already mentioned.

Diggin in dirt and shifting compost - gardeners crossfit regime :)

merce3

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Re: 2-3 mango trees in one hole
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2016, 11:26:18 PM »
No, R osi and FP would not be good.  Rosi is smaller and more compact.  FP is of medium plus vigor.

I know it fruits early which some look at as a plus but otherwise thwre are not that many other redeeming qualities with it.  Also, as i have stated, i would not recommend planting multie trees in one hole, but this is just my 2 pennies worth of advice.

Is 8' the closest you would space?