2020 Mango Season (Florida)

[tropical-farmer]

Thank you Jeff. I am in the same situation as you, a total of 1/2 acre of lot in a residential area with rocky hard soil, almost like a river bed after 2 ft digging, and we are by the brackish river as well so the salt in the soil..ugh..and my journey has just started 3 yrs ago with this lot, we probably might have put 20 trucks of mulch, about 5-6 each year and hoping this would help to change the soil health a bit. Planted 15 mango trees first year and added 12 more next year and some are in pots still. Mangoes in soil for last 2-3 years did have Zn, Mn deficiency, probably iron as well as i had shown it in 'Mango pests' post and Har had told me it is so, and later reading your posts i figured out its the alkaline soil. My flowering has been poor, this year more than half of the mango trees never flowered, in those that flowered the flower to fruit ratio i think is increasing every year but not optimal, and i am pretty sure observing for last 1 week that flowers are drying out from lack of water in those trees the roots of which have not yet found the water table(pretty much all my 2-3 yrs old trees   . I am thinking to pay Har to come to my garden and give his recommendations this year. You can probably see all the deficiencies in the video of my yard i sent to you via email. I totally agree with changing the ways we grow based on the soil, climate and various other external variants like native bugs and pests. And what applies to farms up north may not apply to farms south or to residential small lots where i live. You have done all the hard work over the years, trials and errors which will save a lot of time for new growers like me.

Update: My Honey Kiss hasn't flowered yet, will it even flower this late? Neelam flowered a week ago, Angie flowered 3-4 days ago. Carrie is in third bloom cycle. Peach Cobbler, Orange Sherbet, Fairchild, Coconut Cream, Ugly betty didn't bloom this year.


Satya

Yah, I certainly don't have anything against organic growing. I was actually an organic grower for roughly a decade. And I actually followed a similar path: attempting to solve my problems with soil. In the end, I spread a grand total of around 1,000 cubic yards of tree trimmer mulch over about 12,000 sq feet of land through a 10 year time span. If you do the math, that's roughly 4 feet of mulch across a quarter acre of land -- a lot! After decomp, it turned into maybe 8 inches of beautiful black, wormy compost whose microorganisms thrive when kept moist.

Today, I grow about 80 fruit trees on a little over 1/2 acre of land on an urban double lot, and it's been a 14 year journey of experimentation with a decent bit of success thanks to the smart folks on this forum and the help of Har M, who guided me through the process of discovering what works best for my particular area.

You have raised a good point regarding the personalities involved in what amounts to a religious battle between proselytists on both sides of the debate. But sometimes I feel as if the organic proponents convert it into some sort of moral judgment, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the context.

A number of posters point to the argument of nature being able to take care of itself. But we forget a key point: we're not dealing with what nature gave us. For one, we've selected fruit trees based upon characteristics that nature doesn't care about: flavor, texture, brix, color, production, etc. Secondly, we've removed the trees from their native environment. Though our Floridian climate loosely resembles that of native mango regions, there are still myriad differences: humidity, soil, etc.

Moreover, just because organisms survive in a particular unmodified environment doesn't necessarily mean that we can't apply technology to make things better. For example, humans have adapted quite well to extreme heat, and I'm sure that humans have lived in hot and humid conditions for millenia. However, I'm hard pressed to find even the most staunch organic advocate who doesn't use air conditioning in their home during the Florida summer. And I don't believe organic growing really precludes supplemental irrigation during times of drought (haven't farmers used this for hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years?).

Today, I follow a modified regimen that uses organic practices where it makes sense and conventional when not. For example, I use a mix of OMRI listed and EPA Reduced Risk fungicides. For pest control, I exclusively use OMRI listed products, as they are sufficient to control insect problems and have least environmental impact. Given that organic fertilizer is hard to obtain here (and that organic micronutrient products often come from ancient sea beds -- a limited resource), I favor conventional fertilizer. And I provide supplemental irrigation in times of drought. I suggest doing whatever makes the most sense for one's particular needs and growing environment, within the bounds of EPA regs of course.

I get where Frog's frustration probably stems from... us natural guys constantly getting the "you can't grow anything without the use of poisons, due to so and so..." speeches from those who aren't willing to go the extra mile to maintain the ultimate integrity of food and acting like you doing so is impossible because they can't manage it is tired and condescending.

Just because "Mr. Conventional" has to spray a 55 Gallon drum of Roundup a week on every individual vegetable or tree they grow doesn't mean they need to puff their chests up and tell you that you better learn to enjoy poisonous taste of Glyphosate because it's so good for you and you need it while taking in your chemical free collection telling you that it cannot be done in that manner...

Nobody enjoys getting pissed on like that and those kind of people always are the rudest most stubborn people when you mention it can be done naturally like nature has for millions of years before the industrialization of the world happened. They try to shut your truth down immediately and I take joy in watching them writhe in the light of truth when their brains start comprehending they may be ousted.

That rant being ranted, I don't see Jeff as trying to pee on anyone's rainbow, just stating what has worked best and most optimally in his experiences.

Point being, we all can learn a lot from others experiences no matter what methods are used as long as we can just listen and keep an open mind to what others are saying. Agree or disagree, everybody should have a platform to express their thoughts!

Looking forward to scarfing down as many varieties of mangoes as possible this year! I want to be so lucky as to taste the M-4 this time

[savemejebus]

Kind of a 'mixed' year for me. Last year we had a fantastic amount of fruit compared to most everyone, but this year it's hit or miss.

Pickering - loaded (always seems to be)
Cogshall - loaded (last 2 years we've got maybe 5 fruit total so hopefully they hold on)
Cocktail Edgar/Sweet Tart/seedling - nothing - not even a flower
Glenn - about 1/2 loaded. Usually is fully loaded.
Nam Doc Mai - maybe 10 fruits holding on at this point
Sweet Tart - fairly loaded - tree still young but probably around 50 fruits on now
Lemon Zest - nothing - not even a flower. Breaks my heart.
Rosigold - probably 1/2 loaded - usually fully loaded
Coconut Cream - probably 3/4 loaded. This one is an oddball year to year.
Angie - fully loaded
Fruit Punch - maybe 10 fruits holding on
Seacrest - too young - no flowers yet

[mangokothiyan]

The Seacrest part of my multi-graft tree always flowers heavily and holds on to small fruits but they all drop before maturity. End up with 4-5 fruits during a good year. This year, i have one.

Heavy fruiting on my Florigon, Mallika, NDM #4. About 5 fruits on Juicy Peach, 10 on Orange Essence, substantial number of mangoes on Sunrise, Angie, Sweet Tart, Cotton Candy, Edgar, Bailey's Marvel, Val Carrie, Dwarf Hawaiian and Cac. Carrie, as usual flowered heavily and ended up disappointing. About 50 fruits on the tree.  Off year for Kesar as well. A few mangoes on Little Gem; hope to taste the fruit for the first time this year. About 10 mangoes on my Lemon Zest.

Maha Chanok had a banner year in 2019 and is taking a break this year - just a handful of fruits. Same with Choc Anon Ugly Betty flowered thrice and I will be happy if I get 4 fruits off it. A few small fruits on Son Pari (tree looks ugly) and White Pirie. Planted them based on reputation.

[Cookie Monster]

Yah, it was somewhere around 40 - 50 truck loads at roughly 100 large wheelbarrow (8cf) loads per truck? So figure several thousand trips with the wheelbarrow and 10's of thousands of shovel movements. I started getting carpal tunnel and eventually just started hiring laborers to do it. That costed me thousands, but I did it over a 10 year period, so it was sort of an amortized cost.

I'm doing about 14 feet on center, with some trees closer than that which my wife snuck in when I wasn't looking. At 5 years, the canopies started to touch. I try to prune 1/2 of them each year, and it takes me months worth of weekends to do so. I bought a semi-commercial wood chipper (merry mac) to chip it all up, makes nice compost in just a few months.

Some trees can be closer than 14 feet (eg, sugar apple), but 14 - 15 foot spacing is workable if you're ok doing a lot of pruning. But this is location dependent. For example, I think soil conditions in Homestead are not as conducive to rapid growth.

Jeff, that must have been a lot of hard work and some beautiful soil!! 

I feel as you obviously are a wealth of helpful information as you have been at it for as long as you have and tried different methods over that time.

I was obviously being facetious in my postings as usual, as I'm sure everybody will come to learn. I feel if we can't have a good laugh amongst ourselves and bring some positive energy and love to our plants then we aren't doing them any justice!

I don't like judging what others do as that isn't my place and I don't want to be judged myself. If more people would check their ego and drop the narcissistic tendencies everybody gets then we could all get along better!

Out of curiosity what is the closest spacing you have on your trees on your 1/2  acre? My wife and I have a 1/3rd acre to work with and half of that is a septic mound, so we are forced to go ultra high density for the trees on our property.

[Cookie Monster]

You're in a challenging spot. Fortunately, I don't have a hard pan. The rock layer is rubble, and the roots can generally make their way through to the sand on the other side.

Har is great. You should really have him come for a consultation. I had him coming to my place on a monthly basis for quite a while. Learned a lot.

Thank you Jeff. I am in the same situation as you, a total of 1/2 acre of lot in a residential area with rocky hard soil, almost like a river bed after 2 ft digging, and we are by the brackish river as well so the salt in the soil..ugh..and my journey has just started 3 yrs ago with this lot, we probably might have put 20 trucks of mulch, about 5-6 each year and hoping this would help to change the soil health a bit. Planted 15 mango trees first year and added 12 more next year and some are in pots still. Mangoes in soil for last 2-3 years did have Zn, Mn deficiency, probably iron as well as i had shown it in 'Mango pests' post and Har had told me it is so, and later reading your posts i figured out its the alkaline soil. My flowering has been poor, this year more than half of the mango trees never flowered, in those that flowered the flower to fruit ratio i think is increasing every year but not optimal, and i am pretty sure observing for last 1 week that flowers are drying out from lack of water in those trees the roots of which have not yet found the water table(pretty much all my 2-3 yrs old trees   . I am thinking to pay Har to come to my garden and give his recommendations this year. You can probably see all the deficiencies in the video of my yard i sent to you via email. I totally agree with changing the ways we grow based on the soil, climate and various other external variants like native bugs and pests. And what applies to farms up north may not apply to farms south or to residential small lots where i live. You have done all the hard work over the years, trials and errors which will save a lot of time for new growers like me.

Update: My Honey Kiss hasn't flowered yet, will it even flower this late? Neelam flowered a week ago, Angie flowered 3-4 days ago. Carrie is in third bloom cycle. Peach Cobbler, Orange Sherbet, Fairchild, Coconut Cream, Ugly betty didn't bloom this year.


Satya

[Squam256]

Found the first ripe Glenn fruits today:

[Tropheus76]

I have the best crop of mangos I have had right now on multiple trees. Some have baseball sized fruit on them and are pushing new blooms elsewhere on the tree(pickering, Sweet tart, lemon zest), is this normal?

My Cotton Candy shows no signs its even aware its spring(along with sweetheart lychee but that's a different topic). Is Cotton Candy a late season variety?

[Squam256]

I have the best crop of mangos I have had right now on multiple trees. Some have baseball sized fruit on them and are pushing new blooms elsewhere on the tree(pickering, Sweet tart, lemon zest), is this normal?

My Cotton Candy shows no signs its even aware its spring(along with sweetheart lychee but that's a different topic). Is Cotton Candy a late season variety?

Cotton Candy is late July/August. Might be more August inland.

I wouldn’t call the 3 bloom pattern historically normal but it isn’t uncommon this year.

[zands]

Okay Jeff.   I know from previous experience regarding watering that we are not supposed to disagree with you or risk harassment and being run off this site, I have no problem with leaving here..  ’This place has been a valuable source of ideas for many.  Since before I came along there was no information for Organic Growers.

Froggy - Drop the act
All vegetarians and vegans hit the wall...... Eventually. All depends on how much reserves you (anyone) built up during their "degenerate meat eating years". Women are more naturally veg eaters. The plant gatherers, while men went out for the hunt and like to eat in steak houses. Thus women are the longer hold-outs when on a years long veggie/vegan kick.
Read anti-fragile- Nassim Nicholas Taleb
You are a valued contributor so stay
Doing bio-dynamics, you have my respect. I just toss on the mulch and the chems. No sprays.

[johnb51]

zands, which mangos do you have in abundance this year?

[weiss613]

Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining but on the subject of this being a bad year as far as fruit production this 2020 season for me is aptly called my nightmare season. I live in Kendall in a nice residential area with 230+ mango trees of about 30+ varieties. I counted every fruit on all the trees and my estimate for 230 trees of which 95 have been in the ground from 3-20 years was 235 fruit. Now what the heck has caused this catastrophe? I only have 2 variables I can blame. Over watering and untimely fertilization. Since I live in a residential area I must keep my lawn looking nice and since we've been in a drought for many months I've had to use the sprinklers a lot. Also I have about 10 potted trees from the nursery as backups in case a tree falters and I can't heal it that have to be watered regularly and I put them in a place where the sprinklers can hit them. So since my sprinklers also hit the mango trees and their roots my trees have been way over watered. Between the over watering and untimely fertilization/fertigation the trees are all spectacularly beautiful and healthy ""BUT"" no fruit to speak of.
As far as what trees did produce as of April 3, 2920 etc.
Pickering great crop
Rosigold great
Dwarf Hawaiian good with a smaller 2nd crop.
After this a spot here and there. Most spots are on 1 to a few Sweet Tarts and Cotton Candies and a Duncan and a Maha. That means as an example that out of 50 Sweet Tart trees maybe 6 have 1-20 fruit and the others have a big zero. But all total about only 235 fruit.
Next year/season I am not going to turn the sprinklers on or fertilize and I am going to hand water the grass by hand if conditions require """""BUT""""" that too may not work because the roots of my trees are still under the grass!!!!!!!! Jokes on me.
Even my 20 year old trees have zero fruit and that includes 2 Haden, 4 Keitt, 1 Van Dyke, 2 Glenn, 1 Valencia Pride, 2 Hatcher. Crazy Crazy Crazy but my own fault. Live and learn.

[Cookie Monster]

This is all anecdotal, obviously, but I would assume it would be related to nitrogen feeding at the wrong time. Comparing flowering here before and after installation of an irrigation system, I didn't note any differences. The factors that seem to influence production here are:

 - Lack of nutrition (eg, zinc, iron, k, etc) -- very typical here in south florida
 - Lack of cold. Cold seems to be the #1 trigger for reproductive growth here.
 - Production from the previous year (in conjunction with nutrition levels), ie, high production the prev year without replacing nutrients usually means lower production in the current year.
 - Nitrogen applied during the dormancy period.
 - Shade.
 - Over-pruning or pruning at the wrong time of year, which encourages vegetative growth.

With supplemental irrigation, I've got thousands of mangoes on 35 or so mango trees, after having a banner year last year.

Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining but on the subject of this being a bad year as far as fruit production this 2020 season for me is aptly called my nightmare season. I live in Kendall in a nice residential area with 230+ mango trees of about 30+ varieties. I counted every fruit on all the trees and my estimate for 230 trees of which 95 have been in the ground from 3-20 years was 235 fruit. Now what the heck has caused this catastrophe? I only have 2 variables I can blame. Over watering and untimely fertilization. Since I live in a residential area I must keep my lawn looking nice and since we've been in a drought for many months I've had to use the sprinklers a lot. Also I have about 10 potted trees from the nursery as backups in case a tree falters and I can't heal it that have to be watered regularly and I put them in a place where the sprinklers can hit them. So since my sprinklers also hit the mango trees and their roots my trees have been way over watered. Between the over watering and untimely fertilization/fertigation the trees are all spectacularly beautiful and healthy ""BUT"" no fruit to speak of.
As far as what trees did produce as of April 3, 2920 etc.
Pickering great crop
Rosigold great
Dwarf Hawaiian good with a smaller 2nd crop.
After this a spot here and there. Most spots are on 1 to a few Sweet Tarts and Cotton Candies and a Duncan and a Maha. That means as an example that out of 50 Sweet Tart trees maybe 6 have 1-20 fruit and the others have a big zero. But all total about only 235 fruit.
Next year/season I am not going to turn the sprinklers on or fertilize and I am going to hand water the grass by hand if conditions require """""BUT""""" that too may not work because the roots of my trees are still under the grass!!!!!!!! Jokes on me.
Even my 20 year old trees have zero fruit and that includes 2 Haden, 4 Keitt, 1 Van Dyke, 2 Glenn, 1 Valencia Pride, 2 Hatcher. Crazy Crazy Crazy but my own fault. Live and learn.

[weiss613]

CM how can I thank you for that phenomenal response? Certainly not with mangoes!!!!! Seriously though that response cannot be found anywhere I looked in any book or the internet and it was really educational. So it wasn't the water but my constant feeding of a complete 9-3-6 with micros every 2 weeks at the wrong time. Wow really I feel so much better because now I won't repeat that mistake. When can I feed my mango trees? From when to when with that 9-3-6 so I don't kill their urge to reproduce themselves?
Nobody has ever given me such great information before.

[palmcity]

Between the over watering and untimely fertilization/fertigation the trees are all spectacularly beautiful and healthy ""BUT"" no fruit to speak of.

Next year/season I am not going to turn the sprinklers on or fertilize and I am going to hand water the grass by hand.............
Crazy but my own fault.

Seems you know the answer.

Over fertilization with a lot of water (if not so much to cause root rot/disease) = Plant growth primarily.

If the tree is stressed or thinks it's about to die, It tries to fruit. So as you said cut back. Other choices... Try other stresses. Some nick or beat on the trunk etc. if you don't think it will get diseased.

And if you want your trees to grow vegetatively, extra fertilizers, water, & pull off all the fruit.

Too much or too little of almost anything is bad.

[Cookie Monster]

I don't give my mangoes any nitrogen at all. I use Har's slow release 0-3-16 with minors (https://www.themangoplace.com/fertilizers). You can give mangoes nitrogen when they are fruiting, but you need to ensure that the mango receives enough calcium to mitigate internal breakdown. You might get away with it given your Ca rich soil down in Miami Dade. However, your best bet is to just never feed them with nitrogen (unless they are severely stunted).

Every two weeks is a bit frequent. 3 - 4 times a year is sufficient, especially with a slow release product.

Actually, it was Dr Richard Campbell who popularized the notion that mango trees in this area don't need N.

If your soil does not drain well, be really careful with the irrigation.

CM how can I thank you for that phenomenal response? Certainly not with mangoes!!!!! Seriously though that response cannot be found anywhere I looked in any book or the internet and it was really educational. So it wasn't the water but my constant feeding of a complete 9-3-6 with micros every 2 weeks at the wrong time. Wow really I feel so much better because now I won't repeat that mistake. When can I feed my mango trees? From when to when with that 9-3-6 so I don't kill their urge to reproduce themselves?
Nobody has ever given me such great information before.

[Frog Valley Farm]

OMG our 3 yo Lemon Zest has nice big fruit from first bloom, lots of little fruitlets from 2nd bloom and is starting a light 3rd bloom. This tree has never been watered and the orchard floor is diverse and healthy and the soil is aggregated deep.

Just by using biodynamic foliar sprays on everything and a little manure from my friends.  I wonder how much a Demeter Certified Lemon Zest seed is worth?  Eat it!  Because it’s good for you and everything else.

[Jose Spain]

OMG our 3 yo Lemon Zest has nice big fruit from first bloom, lots of little fruitlets from 2nd bloom and is starting a light 3rd bloom. This tree has never been watered.

Statistical value = none.

[Frog Valley Farm]

OMG our 3 yo Lemon Zest has nice big fruit from first bloom, lots of little fruitlets from 2nd bloom and is starting a light 3rd bloom. This tree has never been watered.

Statistical value = none.

Thank you!  Right, because we are the first.  How do we value intent then?

[Jose Spain]

OMG our 3 yo Lemon Zest has nice big fruit from first bloom, lots of little fruitlets from 2nd bloom and is starting a light 3rd bloom. This tree has never been watered.

Statistical value = none.

Right, because we are the first.  How do we value intent then?

You want to prove something for good, give us at least some minimum numbers (years of experience and dozens of trees), one single tree means little. I don't expect here peer review papers but a little bit of rationality would be great.

[Frog Valley Farm]

OMG our 3 yo Lemon Zest has nice big fruit from first bloom, lots of little fruitlets from 2nd bloom and is starting a light 3rd bloom. This tree has never been watered.

Statistical value = none.

Right, because we are the first.  How do we value intent then?

You want to prove something for good, give us at least some minimum numbers (years of experience and dozens of trees), one single tree means little. I don't expect here peer review papers but a little bit of rationality would be great.

Sorry yes this is just my experience 57 years organic, and at FVF growing 270 Mangos with multiple trees having the same result.  Growing the last 3 years here and growing soil for 4 years here.

[Honest Abe]

Hi Frog Valley, I have read many of your replies on mango-related posts. You have peaked my interest and i have some questions for you because your non-irrigating methods go against most (or all) mango experts on forum, and id like to expand my very limited knowledge of mango growing:

Do you spray "biodynamic foliar sprays" often enough where your spraying or misting the leaves is actually a form of irrigation?
How many years have you been farming mangos on a large scale (are your methods time-tested)? Or are most of your trees juvenile?
What kind of Manure and how often?

sounds too easy!

just trying to educate myself, thanks

-Abe

[zands]

"water is the best fertilizer" --- Harry Hausman of mango fame.  Broward resident.  Search forum for more Hausman.

[shot]

Very good set on mango trees hanging over deep pond .Ugly betty,sweet tart,a fruit punch/harvest moon combo tree, lemon zest,wize,cat hoa loc.Ground is always damp and fruit quality is the cleanest and tasty.Fish poop?That water system pond and mosquito ditch is loaded with life every thing from shrimp,crayfish,turtles and literally thousands of fish.So I have to (give a hoot don't pollute)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZB7gSQRIuM

[Jose Spain]

OMG our 3 yo Lemon Zest has nice big fruit from first bloom, lots of little fruitlets from 2nd bloom and is starting a light 3rd bloom. This tree has never been watered.

Statistical value = none.

Right, because we are the first.  How do we value intent then?

You want to prove something for good, give us at least some minimum numbers (years of experience and dozens of trees), one single tree means little. I don't expect here peer review papers but a little bit of rationality would be great.

Sorry yes this is just my experience 57 years organic, and at FVF growing 270 Mangos with multiple trees having the same result.  Growing the last 3 years here and growing soil for 4 years here.

I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't asking for your curriculum, I'd like to see data. A picture of a LZ tree this particular year is not data, is an anecdote. That was my point, since I live in a region with up to 5 months without rain any solid info about growing mangoes without watering is actually interesting.

[Frog Valley Farm]

OMG our 3 yo Lemon Zest has nice big fruit from first bloom, lots of little fruitlets from 2nd bloom and is starting a light 3rd bloom. This tree has never been watered.

Statistical value = none.

Right, because we are the first.  How do we value intent then?

You want to prove something for good, give us at least some minimum numbers (years of experience and dozens of trees), one single tree means little. I don't expect here peer review papers but a little bit of rationality would be great.

Sorry yes this is just my experience 57 years organic, and at FVF growing 270 Mangos with multiple trees having the same result.  Growing the last 3 years here and growing soil for 4 years here.

I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't asking for your curriculum, I'd like to see data. A picture of a LZ tree this particular year is not data, is an anecdote. That was my point, since I live in a region with up to 5 months without rain any solid info about growing mangoes without watering is actually interesting.

I was just sharing my successful LZ growing experience this year at my farm in Vero Beach Florida.  I understand everyone has different circumstances and will probably get a different result.