Author Topic: mango poly vs mono  (Read 9463 times)

edself65

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
  • Judge a tree by its fruit, not by its leaves
    • Round Rock, Texas
    • View Profile
    • Texas Rare Fruit Growers
mango poly vs mono
« on: August 06, 2014, 07:28:53 PM »
I'm new to mangos and really did not have any interest in growing them until recently. So what causes the difference in the mono vs poly seeds? What are you looking for when they sprout? Best way to separate? How long does it normally take a seedling to fruit?
Thanks,
Ed

FlyingFoxFruits

  • Prince of Plinia
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12548
  • www.FlyingFoxFruits.com
    • USA, FEMA Region IV, FL Zone 9a
    • View Profile
    • Flying Fox Fruits
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2014, 07:57:37 PM »
Ed,

I'm not sure why some are poly and some are mono, but I do know that when poly seeds sprout they come up as separate plants from the same seed...and you can actually split up the plants and pot them up individually...each plant is supposed to be a clone of the mother tree...although I'm sure there's slight chance of mutation.

mono seeds are best for usage as rootstock, and they generally sprout from a single point of origin, and can't be separated in to multiple plants.

In FL I've heard of some mangoes fruiting in 4 yrs from seed, but this is rare...(some varieties, and some seedlings will be more precocious than others), but in central FL, it usually takes about 6-8 yrs from seed.
www.FlyingFoxFruits.com

www.PLINIAS.com

https://www.ebay.com/usr/flyingfoxfruits

www.youtube.com/FlyingFoxFruits

https://www.instagram.com/flyingfoxfruits/
I disabled the forum's personal messaging system, please send an email to contact me, FlyingFoxFruits@gmail.com

edself65

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
  • Judge a tree by its fruit, not by its leaves
    • Round Rock, Texas
    • View Profile
    • Texas Rare Fruit Growers
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 08:02:33 PM »
Thanks Adam I was wondering because I was looking at my only Fruit Punch seed today I noticed what looks like two side by side sprouts coming out of the dirt. I will take a photo tomorrow.

Thanks,

Ed

FlyingFoxFruits

  • Prince of Plinia
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12548
  • www.FlyingFoxFruits.com
    • USA, FEMA Region IV, FL Zone 9a
    • View Profile
    • Flying Fox Fruits
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2014, 08:33:37 PM »
ok!

could be poly, not sure....but I think I've seen mono seeds throw up multiple sprouts from one seed.
www.FlyingFoxFruits.com

www.PLINIAS.com

https://www.ebay.com/usr/flyingfoxfruits

www.youtube.com/FlyingFoxFruits

https://www.instagram.com/flyingfoxfruits/
I disabled the forum's personal messaging system, please send an email to contact me, FlyingFoxFruits@gmail.com

edzone9

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2629
    • Zone 10 SW Florida
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2014, 08:59:43 PM »
The Duncan Mangos That I bought from Squam Sprouted Poly..

Ed.
Zone 10

bsbullie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9621
    • USA, Boynton Beach, FL 33472, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2014, 09:16:18 PM »
Not all the sprouts of a poly seed are clones of the variety of the fruit it came from.
- Rob

zands

  • mango_zango
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4455
    • Zone 10b, Florida, USA, 33321
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2014, 10:54:35 PM »
Ed,

I'm not sure why some are poly and some are mono,

These days with interbreeding it is getting difficult but the original division was:
  • Poly-        Southeast Asia and Philippines mangoes
  • Mono-      India-Pakistan mangoes
  • with the offshoot of:
  • Mono-      Just about all of the older traditional Florida mangoes due to Indian ancestry. You see them in the Pine Island Mango viewer

Tropicdude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2117
    • Broward County, Florida, USA
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 12:24:17 AM »
I am still confused by which one of the plantlets coming out of a polyembryonic seed is the one that will be the clone/s or identical to the plant the seed came from.

Some people use the strongest/first plantlet and say that is the one that is the clone, then there are those that say the smaller ones that come later are the clones.


It is common practice and preferred to use polyembryonic seeds for rootstock,  this is why, for example, "Turpentine" is used a lot in Fla.  it is known to be adapted to Florida soils.  and it is Poly, meaning that when you plant it, the rootstock will have the same desired traits as the mother tree.

Mono seeds will not be identical to the mother tree, so you really never know what your going to get,  may not make a difference when your just grafting one tree,  but a nursery would want to have consistent results.

But here is where i get confused.  I have read that many nursery folk, use the most vigorous plantlet from the poly seed.  but other reports state its the less vigorous of the plants. ??

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-29452006000300025
Quote
CONCLUSIONS

1) Zygotic plantlets may not be necessarily in the first position or considered the weakest in the mango polyembryonic seed;

2) 90% of vigorous plantlets analyzed in 2002 and 2003 were considered zygotic, and the remaining 10% were considered ambigous;

3) The RAPD markers can be used as a diagnostic tool to identify plantlets in polyembryonic seeds but, at least duplicates and reproducible primers should be utilized to enhace the working efficiency;

http://www.google.com.do/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=17&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CJsBEBYwEA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffshs.org%2Fproceedings-o%2F1961-vol-74%2F363-365%2520(CAMPBELL).pdf&ei=S_PiU_b2G8aBygSi9YHgBg&usg=AFQjCNHM5ogpbicv7ETWhuJlnEOVNOdlqA&sig2=3LTNtjXxk8VMBGtlNxyyDg
Quote
Some varieties of mango (Mangifera indica
L.) produce seeds which have more than one
embryo, and are said to be polyembryonic. In
polyembryonic seeds, no more than one of the
embryos is game tic, and frequently there is
nof gametic embryo. The other embryos de
velop from the cells of the nucellus. Monoembryonic
mango varieties have seeds with
only one embryo, which is of gametic origin
William
" The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago.....The second best time, is now ! "

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2014, 12:56:42 AM »
These days with interbreeding it is getting difficult but the original division was:
  • Poly-        Southeast Asia and Philippines mangoes
  • Mono-      India-Pakistan mangoes
  • with the offshoot of:
  • Mono-      Just about all of the older traditional Florida mangoes due to Indian ancestry. You see them in the Pine Island Mango viewer

All most all native Mango varieties found in the region between Western Ghat and Arabian Sea (distributed through South Indian states Goa, Karnataka and Kerala) are poly-embryonic.

zands

  • mango_zango
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4455
    • Zone 10b, Florida, USA, 33321
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2014, 07:16:47 AM »


All most all native Mango varieties found in the region between Western Ghat and Arabian Sea (distributed through South Indian states Goa, Karnataka and Kerala) are poly-embryonic.

Very interesting. Might be due to Portuguese/Spanish trade. Do you know if Fernandin mango of Goa is poly-embryonic? http://www.goaholidayhomes.com/information/mangoes-of-goa.html

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2014, 07:36:36 AM »


All most all native Mango varieties found in the region between Western Ghat and Arabian Sea (distributed through South Indian states Goa, Karnataka and Kerala) are poly-embryonic.

Very interesting. Might be due to Portuguese/Spanish trade. Do you know if Fernandin mango of Goa is poly-embryonic? http://www.goaholidayhomes.com/information/mangoes-of-goa.html

I am not sure about the particular Mango variety. That variety may have a different name in Kerla (my native).
I always noticed that native varieties of Kerala are poly-embryonic. This was confirmed when I read about this in a research paper by some research scholars.

zands

  • mango_zango
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4455
    • Zone 10b, Florida, USA, 33321
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2014, 08:11:49 AM »


All most all native Mango varieties found in the region between Western Ghat and Arabian Sea (distributed through South Indian states Goa, Karnataka and Kerala) are poly-embryonic.

Very interesting. Might be due to Portuguese/Spanish trade. Do you know if Fernandin mango of Goa is poly-embryonic? http://www.goaholidayhomes.com/information/mangoes-of-goa.html

I am not sure about the particular Mango variety. That variety may have a different name in Kerla (my native).
I always noticed that native varieties of Kerala are poly-embryonic. This was confirmed when I read about this in a research paper by some research scholars.

Thanks. The Portuguese got around a lot Asia. The Spanish were in the Philippines where the traditional mangoes would be poly. I am theorizing that between these two nations some poly mangoes were brought back to the Goa area and bred with the older native mono mangoes

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2014, 09:37:43 AM »


All most all native Mango varieties found in the region between Western Ghat and Arabian Sea (distributed through South Indian states Goa, Karnataka and Kerala) are poly-embryonic.

Very interesting. Might be due to Portuguese/Spanish trade. Do you know if Fernandin mango of Goa is poly-embryonic? http://www.goaholidayhomes.com/information/mangoes-of-goa.html

I am not sure about the particular Mango variety. That variety may have a different name in Kerla (my native).
I always noticed that native varieties of Kerala are poly-embryonic. This was confirmed when I read about this in a research paper by some research scholars.

Thanks. The Portuguese got around a lot Asia. The Spanish were in the Philippines where the traditional mangoes would be poly. I am theorizing that between these two nations some poly mangoes were brought back to the Goa area and bred with the older native mono mangoes
This theory may be wrong (Yes, I said 'may be').
Locally prized Mangoes in Kerala such as Moovandan, Thaali, Kilichundan, Kappa are polys.
These varieties are known for centuries and not a single native mono variety is found in Kerala.
Portugese took Mango from Kerala to Philipenes and othe countries.
It is well known that Mango is native of India.
The term Mango was originated from 'Manga' which means Mango in Kerala.
The Portugese still use the name Manga.
It is almost clear that the Portugese took Mangoes (poly) to South East Asia.

Mike T

  • Zone 12a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9074
  • Cairns,Nth Qld, Australia
    • Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2014, 10:05:09 AM »
I have been under the impression that pretty well all SE Asian mangoes are poly and in India/Pakistan most are mono except for a few pockets of polys around southern India.
Nearly all the top mango varieties here are polys including newly developed ones, with the only monos imported from Florida,There seems to be popular prejudice against monos which are viewed as inferior and less suited for export.

zands

  • mango_zango
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4455
    • Zone 10b, Florida, USA, 33321
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2014, 11:07:36 AM »
I have been under the impression that pretty well all SE Asian mangoes are poly and in India/Pakistan most are mono except for a few pockets of polys around southern India.
Nearly all the top mango varieties here are polys including newly developed ones, with the only monos imported from Florida,There seems to be popular prejudice against monos which are viewed as inferior and less suited for export.

And despite the proper English name your (Australian) popular Kensington Pride is poly is it not?

zands

  • mango_zango
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4455
    • Zone 10b, Florida, USA, 33321
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2014, 11:12:47 AM »
http://horticultureworld.net/botany-taxonomy.htm

ORIGIN
Common mango (Mangifera indica L.) originated as alloploid and its native home was suggested as Eastern India, Assam to Burma or possibly further in the Malay region (Popenoe, 1920).
Vavilov (1926) also suggested Indo-Burma region as the centre of origin of mango. Introduction of superior types into Malay region from India is also an evidence of its origin in India. Based on detailed study of the history, phyto-geographical distribution of allied species, fossil records, evidence of numerous wild and cultivated varieties in India, Mukherjee (1951) considered origin of genus Mangifera probably in Burma, Siam, Indo-china and the Malay peninsula, but the birth of common mango in Assam-Burma region and not in Malay. According to De Candolle (1884), 'It is impossible to doubt that it [the mango] is a native of south Asia or of the Malay archipelago, when we see the multitude of varieties cultivated in those countries, the number of ancient names, in particular a Sanskrit name, its abundance in the gardens of Bengal, of Deccan peninsula, and of Ceylon even in Rheede's time (i.e., 1683)’.

Based on the recent findings (Mukherjee, 1997 and Bompard and Schnell, 1997), the centre of origin and diversity of the genus Mangifera is now firmly established in Southeast Asia. However, the origin of Mangifera indica has been a matter of speculation for many years. The fossil record described by Seward (1912) provides few clues, as the only fossil bearing the imprint of a leaf of M. pentandra has ever been found in Assam. Mukherjee (195l) suggested that Mangifera indica first appeared during the Quaternary period. On the basis of ancient accounts of travellers and the written historical records, it was believed for many years that mango must have originated in India and spread outward from there to Southeast Asia and thence to the New World and Africa.

Because northeastern India is at the northernmost edge of the distribution of the Mangifera species (Mukherjee, 1997), Hooker (1876) suggested that mango might have been naturalized in India. It is now apparent on the basis of taxonomic and recent molecular evidence that mango probably evolved within a large area including north western Myanmar, Bangladesh and northeastern India (Mukherjee, 1997)

Bompard and Schnell (1997) also suggested that great species diversity of Mangifera in Malay Peninsula, Borneo and Sumatra, the available evidence points to a Sudanic origin for the genus. This however must not minimize the particular importance to the region stretching from Myanmar to Indo-China as another centre of diversification, as attested by a range of species belonging the section Euantherae (section including M. calunera, M. cochinchinensis and M. pentendra).

Further M. indica apparently originated in region on western border of the secondary centre of diversification mentioned above. Truly wild common mango trees have been recorded in Bangladesh (Chittagong Hills), northeastern India (Assam valley) and Myanmar. Owing to its cultivation and dissemination for thousands of years, in India semi-wild trees can be found in the forests throughout the subcontinent.

Berto

  • Southwest Florida
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Ready to learn!
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2014, 12:11:00 PM »
Yes, indeed!
The Portuguese took "manga" and "jaca" to Brasil from India, over 500 years ago. 
Manga and jaca adapted extremely well to Brasil. They adapted so well that some Brasilians, erroneously, even think that manga and jaca are native to Brasil.
The most famous varieties in Brasil are "manga espada", and "manga rosa".  Espada is green when ripe, and Rosa is very pink.  Now, espada means "sword" in Portuguese, and Rosa means "pink". 
Both of them have fibers, and are delicious.  Both varieties are poly embryonic. I wonder what is the name of these varieties in India?  Any takers?
By the way, is there any collector growing these varieties?  Thank you!

bsbullie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9621
    • USA, Boynton Beach, FL 33472, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2014, 12:29:40 PM »
Yes, indeed!
The Portuguese took "manga" and "jaca" to Brasil from India, over 500 years ago. 
Manga and jaca adapted extremely well to Brasil. They adapted so well that some Brasilians, erroneously, even think that manga and jaca are native to Brasil.
The most famous varieties in Brasil are "manga espada", and "manga rosa".  Espada is green when ripe, and Rosa is very pink.  Now, espada means "sword" in Portuguese, and Rosa means "pink". 
Both of them have fibers, and are delicious.  Both varieties are poly embryonic. I wonder what is the name of these varieties in India?  Any takers?
By the way, is there any collector growing these varieties?  Thank you!

Truly Tropical in Delray Beach grows the Rosa.
- Rob

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2014, 01:10:19 PM »
Yes, indeed!
The Portuguese took "manga" and "jaca" to Brasil from India, over 500 years ago. 
Manga and jaca adapted extremely well to Brasil. They adapted so well that some Brasilians, erroneously, even think that manga and jaca are native to Brasil.
The most famous varieties in Brasil are "manga espada", and "manga rosa".  Espada is green when ripe, and Rosa is very pink.  Now, espada means "sword" in Portuguese, and Rosa means "pink". 
Both of them have fibers, and are delicious.  Both varieties are poly embryonic. I wonder what is the name of these varieties in India?  Any takers?
By the way, is there any collector growing these varieties?  Thank you!
True!
The Portugese took 'Manga' (Mango) and 'Chacka pazham' (Jack fruit), 'pazham' means fruit, to Brazil and introduced Cashew, Cassava, Papaya, Latex plant in India.

In India, the Portugese were based in the South. Thats why they took the 'polys' to SE Asia, and not the 'monos'.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 01:13:00 PM by vipinrl »

murahilin

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3287
    • USA Greenacres, Florida Zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2014, 01:29:32 PM »
True!
The Portugese took 'Manga' (Mango) and 'Chacka pazham' (Jack fruit), 'pazham' means fruit, to Brazil and introduced Cashew, Cassava, Papaya, Latex plant in India.

In India, the Portugese were based in the South. Thats why they took the 'polys' to SE Asia, and not the 'monos'.

Are you saying that the mangos in SE Asia all came from India? If so, that's not correct.

DurianLover

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1455
  • Bali, Indonesia
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2014, 02:45:57 PM »
Berto, you can order Rosa from Squam in case you miss "home style cooking" :). I tried one.

I think what Vipin is saying there are native mango varieties with 1000 years of traditions. Those are poly, and grafting wasn't practiced till Portuguese arrival. Not sure, but that's my understanding at least.
Little bit off topic, but Portuguese also introduced chili peppers to Old World, and Asia. Funny that chili peppers are considered tradition cooking ingredient in many Asian countries. My personal opinion its healthier to use fresh black peppers, they have more benefits.

Mike T

  • Zone 12a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9074
  • Cairns,Nth Qld, Australia
    • Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2014, 03:13:48 PM »
Just where M.indica crawled from the primordial ooze to become the mango we love today is contraversial but people have muddied the evidence for over 20 000 years and maybe a lot longer.Boats tackling the open sea have been around in SE Asia and India over 45 000 years. Thais claim archaic mango sub fossils point to a thai origin rather than an Indian as some references suggest. There are also moves afoot in taxonomic circles to change the indica to something a bit more SE asian.Selecting preferred types and planting could go back over 10 000 years so there has been a long history.

Berto

  • Southwest Florida
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Ready to learn!
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2014, 03:25:16 PM »
Durianlover
Thank you! 
I already grow "espada" and "rosa". Espada is grafted, and rosa is a seedling from an outstanding fruit. 

Mike T

  • Zone 12a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9074
  • Cairns,Nth Qld, Australia
    • Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2014, 03:33:58 PM »
KP is a poly of Indian origin Zands and the ports visited in India by the original ship carrying the fruit  in the 1800's are known but KP or anthing close in India isn't.It was ahead of its time and even today it causes keitt,kent and a host of other Floridians to be laughed out of the markets and branded as imposters.The search for a good american mango to grow commercially in Australia and be fit to export to SE Asia has repeatedly ended in tears for 3 decades.Even calypso is failing and it is KP cross to a Floridian because it is only half good.I wonder if OS or LZ could be the white whales if they taste good enough to compete.

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: mango poly vs mono
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2014, 08:28:56 PM »
True!
The Portugese took 'Manga' (Mango) and 'Chacka pazham' (Jack fruit), 'pazham' means fruit, to Brazil and introduced Cashew, Cassava, Papaya, Latex plant in India.

In India, the Portugese were based in the South. Thats why they took the 'polys' to SE Asia, and not the 'monos'.

Are you saying that the mangos in SE Asia all came from India? If so, that's not correct.
My theory may be wrong that the Portugese have introduced poly mangoes to SE Asia from S India.
But I am sure that large number of native poly varieties found in S India, including wild varieties found in jungles, are native and not brought from SE Asia.

ANOTHER THEORY:
The Western Ghats was formed by the collision of a large land mass with the Indian sub-continent long before the collision of Indian sub-continent with the Asian continent forming the Himalayas.
It may be possible that the land mass collided with the Indian sub-continent was once a part of the SE Asia.
The presence of poly mangoes in S India (Western Ghats) and in SE Asia supports this theory.
Also, you can compare the similarities between Jackfruit (native to Western Ghats) and Chempedak (native to SE Asia).
Wild jackfruit (Artocarpus hirsutus), native to Western Ghats, is similar to Marang and its relatives found in SE Asia.