ID Please

[mmanners]

This plant was given to a friend as an Australian finger lime.  But the leaves, stem, and attachment of the fruit don't look right for that ID. Unfortunately, he did not have a picture of the interior of the fruit.  I've asked for that. My best guess has been something close to Uvaria, since the fruit attachment reminds me of Asimina fruits, but again, the leaves don't look typical for something in Annonaceae.  So I'd appreciate it if someone who recognizes it could let me know.  Thanks.

[Mike T]

Yes you have been swindled. Annonacae  yes, Uvaria no and certainly nothing like U.rufa. I know people will be jumping to say its a Fitzalania but I'm not so sure. If we land on Meiogyne then M.cylindrocarpa is a contender and just look at the foliage. I will yield to Annonacae specialists in the identification department.

[HIfarm]

The Meiogyne sounds like a plausible guess, Adam at FFF has supplied a lot of seeds & plants in FL.  Hopefully he will see this & chime in.  You could also try a google search on the group for Meiogyne / fingersop, I'm sure there are posts regarding it.

John

[mmanners]

Thanks folks.  My friend just sent me more pics, and I think we're in the right ballpark here!

[Mike T]

Don't they look like little Asiminas?

[Triphal]

In a way the fruit bunch is formed. But Asimina seeds are not orderly formed, the skin is thin and not like a 'rind' in the accompanying picture. The leaves are small in size.

[Ansarac]

I am not an expert, except that I hear a verbal similarity, between two Australian plants --
finger lime
finger sop

[Daintree]

I agree.  I think it is Meiogyne cylindrocarpa.

Just picture the conversation -
"Here is a plant for you!"
"Wow! Thanks! What is it?"
"Rats. I forget! Australian "finger-something!"

Totally plausible!

Carolyn

[Ansarac]

I would love to see some of these newer introductions bred for size and vigor. An infinite number of varieties has barely been discovered. 

[polux]

Are they monoecious and self compatible? My smaller plant started to flower right now

[Ansarac]

Where the trait of self compatibility has not been stabilized by breeding or genetic isolation, there is generally a 1 in 3 chance of a plant specie being male, female, or intersexed. Even when it is said to have 'perfect' or 'tame' reproductive parts, productivity will be improved with more pollinizers.

Exceptions to the rule might be created with hormones.

Fingersop is still considered 'bush tucker' or 'wild food', imhblo. You will be partially responsible for domesticating it.

[Epicatt2]

MManners,

The leaves, their shape and arrangement, look exactly like my M. cylindrocarpa.

But yours is a much larger plant.

Cheers!

Paul M.
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[Mike T]

Within 1km of my place the rainforest and open bush has dozens of edible fruit tree species but none are dessert fruits. Syzygium and Ficus especially have loads of species but there are plenty of Annonacae as well. The are Ealeocarpus, Burdekin plums,davidson plums, Ealagnus, Eupamatias, various nuts and seeds and so much more. No one has really done much about domesticating them and aboriginal people having been using native fruits for over 50 000 years. I am sure many places can tell a similar story.

[Epicatt2]

No one has really done much about domesticating them and aboriginal people having been using native fruits for over 50 000 years. I am sure many places can tell a similar story.

It is reported that along the Amazon River, especially in areas of the western basin, that native peoples in that sector have obviously improved upon the biribá (Rollinina deliciosa) as the fruits there are much larger with much-reduced tubercles, moreso than with the biribás found along the eastern sections much further downriver. 

This is apparently due to them choosing/planting seeds of better-tasting varieties of biribá, effected over generations by the local peoples living in the várzea forests there, most of whom still tend to grow a tree of biribá on their plot of land.  That selection has had the effect of –over those many generations– improving this species in the western Amazon basin just by selecting plants with better fruits to grow on their land. (See Amazon River Fruits: Flavors for Conservation by Nigel Smith)

There seems to be a similar case with Asimina triloba, the pawpaw, in the Ohio River Valley where better/larger-fruited varieties have been found still growing there in the wild.  It is believed that the selection/improvement was facilitated by Indian tribes who lived in those areas before the european colonists arrived.

So it is possible that australian aboriginal people have improved upon local fruits/edible plants like Meiogyne cylindrocarpa over the generations and which could be found if one were to look in the right places.

Something to consider, perhaps . . .

Paul M.
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[Mike T]

The variation in the rollinias resulted in the mistaken bekief that mucosa and deliciosa were different species also.Thwe same could be true of the domesticated abius that were spherical, low latex, really big and in a restricted area. They were the progenitors of say Z4 today. The aboriginal people did not cultivate in the traditional sense but no doubt selected and dispersed the better fruits. The original dispersers or fleshy fruits like flying foxes, cassowaries and megafauna are extinct or highly confined these days.

[Epicatt2]

The aboriginal people did not cultivate in the traditional sense but no doubt selected and dispersed the better fruits.

That was exactly my point, that it was people who inadvertently made the selections that had the effect of improving the fruit:  They chose to eat the tastier frruit and spit out the seeds (but in areas often near where they lived and hunted, rather than just randomly as it would more likely be with a random seed distributing animal), and that's what gave rise to more of the better-tasting strains of the species, biribá, in my example.  And yes, R. deliciosa and R. mucosa are synonymous, but for simplicity I used deliciosa in my example.

Flying foxes –or whatever sepcies of bats/bird, etc. that had same role in the New World were certainly less discriminatory about choosing the tastiest fruits to the degree that humans did.  It's not a question about the species and how it is named; it's the entity (i.e., particular taxon) that was eaten with seeds then spit out in the area by many which created the improved selections is the point I was trying to make.

Anyway, I don't know of any studies of what natural polinators there were/are for Meiogyne cylindricarpa, but likely the aborigines would know (or may have known).

Cheers!

Paul M.
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[Mike T]

Pollinators are pretty easy as there are some generalists like stingless and bluebanded bees, blossom bats.honeyeater,hawk and other moths as well as cetonid and buprestid beetles that work any flowers in their range. Yeah I think people may have improved a few species and their seems to be a bit of variation in fruit quality of most. The M.cylindrica is a very old lineage and improvements may have limited by the nutrient poor soils they live in as well.

[Epicatt2]

So MikeT,

Suggestions for optimum growth of M. cylindricarpa would be helpful, with regard to maiximizing its growth habits, fertilizing, pH, and other requirements, such as watering, light/shade requirements, cold- or heat tolerance, seasonal wet/dry periods.

I ask because I sense that you are located in Australia.

I have my plant in a 1 gal. pot in full sun the first 1/2 and full shade for the rest of the day. It is in a mix of builder's sand, milled sphagnum, and leafmold at 1:1:1.  It holds moisture but drains well. Is all that suitalbe or would it prefer anything different, I wonder?

It is growing slowly but is putting on new leaves.  Plant maybe is two to three years old and about eleven inches tall with a flat canopy about ten inches in diameter.

I'd like to see some fruit on it before I shuffle off this mortal coil.

Cheers!

Paul M.

[Mike T]

They get around 10ft high and often have trunks about 6inches in diameter and come from dry vine thicket with 30 to say 70 inches of rain a year and a hot climate. Much warmer than Florida and probably with more pronounced wet and dry seasons. I would mulch heavily,make sure drainage is good and water a lot in warm weather. Fertilisers not so high in P would be preferred.

[Epicatt2]

They get around 10ft high and often have trunks about 6inches in diameter and come from dry vine thicket  . . .

MikeT,

Thanx very much for the suggestions; they are helpful. 

It is definitely hot here in the mid-summer in west central Florida so that should not prove a detriment to this species.  I will shortly be settng up a watering or drip system for all my plants so the amount of water my Meiogyne cylindrocarpa gets also should not be a problem. 

As for heat, we regularly run into the mid-90ºF-range in the mid-summer months.  Winters here recently have been mild with drops (usually) two or three times (in Dec., Jan, Feb) down to the mid- to low-30ºF range and every few years we get a light freeze.  This past winter (2019-20) it got down to 33ºF one time in my yard in the city.  But, what does this species get in nature as far as low temperatures are concerned?  Does it tolerate colder temperatures well?

Could you explain please, what constitutes a 'dry vine thicket', and how does that affect the light that M. cylindrocarpa receives in nature during the year? Would that be partly or mostly shady?  In the dry season is the surrounding vegetation deciduous?

My plant right now, sitting where it does is receiving full, hot sun up to around noon, then full shade thru the rest of the day, and seems okay with that situation but from what you indicate (dry vine thicket) it probably would really prefer filtered light during the highest daily arc of the sun.

It is good to see that my plant is now growing quite a few new leaves, slowly but at least steadily.  For a while after I repotted it it just sat and did nothing and even got to looking a bit shabby.  I kept it in the shade for about a month at first with a couple hours of sunlight in the early morning before moving it to where it gets the amount of light it is getting now.  I don't think it liked being unpotted when the seller sent it to me from PR.

Also, not knowing how extensive the root system of this species tends to be in nature, when should it be repotted into something larger than the one gallon pot it is now in?

Sorry to toss out so many questions all at once in one swell foop, but unfortunately there's relatively little detailed information available out there on the culture of Meiogyne cylindrocarpa. 

OK — TIA

Paul M.
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[Mike T]

Dry vine thicket is a deciduous rainforest type with fire intolerant species and more light coming through than regular wetter rainforest. Very thick leaf litter is normal and it is usually surrounding by a savannah style bush. The winter minimums inparts of its natural distribution would go to the low 30sf and mid-90sf would be late winter max temps. It is seven days out of winter and temps in its natural range in the Northern Territory today are a little over 100f. I am sure they don't need the extreme heat of their natural habitat. They would be deep rooted.

[Epicatt2]

Mike,

Appreciate the further info about this species.

Looks like I am already giving it much of what it likes.

Prolly now will consider moving it into a larger and maybe deeper pot.

Cheers!

Paul M.
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