The Tropical Fruit Forum
Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: palmcity on January 21, 2020, 10:13:34 PM
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Just a few small ones have made it to my yard so far. They volunteered to exit the premises and go the way of the land fill with the trash.
Tomorrow may be a good opportunity to pick some up falling from the trees in South Florida and send on their way. I suggest a machete to aid in the quick removal... Good hunting at sunrise... lol.
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fire up the grill
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What damage do they do?
Genuine question.
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They eat a lot of flowers, fruits, and veggies. wreak havoc on gardens, from edibles to many ornamentals. tear up yards, digging holes. And they create a lot of waste. A good size one was poopin in my pool. Took a month to catch that bastard.
I love lizards, but do not want any iguanas in my yard.
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Ah, Chicken of the Trees...
I used to have pet iguanas, and they can eat a HUGE amount of greenery and fruit. If I had to choose my beautiful tropical trees or iguanas, I would pick the trees.
Carolyn
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A friend of ours, a model, stood under a tree after church.
A huge iguana crapped her.
Iguana waste-- traumatically fetid.
You might as well be skunked.
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Iguanas coming down from trees,
jump on smaller plants,
to break their fall.
Everything is smashed or slimed.
Salmonella proliferates.
Pools with iguanas aren't fit for swimming.
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A restaurant customer, going to an outdoor table, was bloodied---
his bald head whipped by an iguana's tail.
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Legally, you may kill an iguana, provided you do so quickly, without any unnecessary cruelty.
If you use a machete or a spade, make sure it is very sharp--- not blunt-edged the way tools usually come from the store.
The government actually requests that iguanas be killed; however, most officials and reporters are reticent to be seen openly advocating that,
due to the backlash expected from reptile buyers and releasers, and from PETA types--- most of whom have not had the experience of having to raise the food they eat.
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Yes they were stunned. News report from yesterday morning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdmPj_jF2s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdmPj_jF2s)
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Maybe catch them and release them into wild they are souls after all.
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Noooooo!!!!!
Yes, they are God's creatures. And I love all of God's creatures. But there is a place for everything.
Iguanas are an invasive species in Florida. There is no wild place in Florida where they fit into the ecosystem.
Similar problem with huge invasive pythons in the everglades, eating the native endangered species.
Iguanas, monitors, pythons, gambian rats, feral hogs and the like were released into the wild from the exotic pet trade by irresponsible owners, and now they wreak havoc on the native animals who have no protection or defenses against them, and are being out-competed for food resources. Not to mention being disease vectors...
Carolyn
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Maybe catch them and release them into wild they are souls after all.
HORRIBLE idea. That will only worsen problems and lead to more suffering of iguana "souls"
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Kill them all. They are just as bad if not worse than pythons. Especially in the keys where they destroy the young wildlife growing in the mangroves.
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What damage do they do?
Genuine question.
I can't grow papayas in one area of my yard due to iguanas. They eat the tree down to the roots.
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Oh god, I thought they would eat just insects.
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Not to be confused with Anoles.
kj
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Oh god, I thought they would eat just insects.
They are herbivores.
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On my first (and only) trip to south Florida i was not prepared for the sight of huge iguanas everywhere, primarily on the side of the road, near the canals, etc.
In my neck of the woods you see 'possums, groundhogs, the occasional skunk and armadillo on the roadsides.
In south Florida, i reckon it's iguanas.
Not to make light of the situation - it's a very unfortunate thing they way they've invaded the ecosystem.
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Iguanas are most likely native to Florida since they are native to Cuba( a few species).
There are even iguana fossils found in somme Florida shales.
If your affraid of Salmonella,then never eat ducks or duck eggs and hope that a duck wont poo in your pool while flying.
This hype about ,,invasive,,specie its political and has nothing to do with ecology.I think its just people that are manipulated by politicians to hate something so that it unites them,like hating immigrants or certain religious or semitic comunityes.
Funny its that the hate hits back as you can see these ,, rioters ecologists,, wreak havoc their own country land and do more harm than good because its politics not science at the base of their ideology.
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What damage do they do?
Genuine question.
Feel free to read this.
https://weather.com/science/nature/news/2020-01-23-florida-burrowing-iguanas-18-million-damage-west-palm-beach
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Iguanas are most likely native to Florida since they are native to Cuba( a few species).
There are even iguana fossils found in somme Florida shales.
If your affraid of Salmonella,then never eat ducks or duck eggs and hope that a duck wont poo in your pool while flying.
This hype about ,,invasive,,specie its political and has nothing to do with ecology.I think its just people that are manipulated by politicians to hate something so that it unites them,like hating immigrants or certain religious or semitic comunityes.
Funny its that the hate hits back as you can see these ,, rioters ecologists,, wreak havoc their own country land and do more harm than good because its politics not science at the base of their ideology.
I agree that there can be a lot of hype, politics and "religion" around issues of ecology and the environment.
But the issues of exotic and/or invasive and/or noxious species to me is black and white. Either the species is endemic to an ecosystem or it's not. In many many cases an exotic introduction can become a major problem because the ecosystem is not equipped to keep it in check.
There are so many examples in the United States - kudzu, bush honeysuckle, etc. In the case of something like bush honeysuckle - i see it all around me. It has totally overtaken the understory of so many forests and has thus crowded-out native species like pawpaw and spicebush.
Now I will say - how we respond to these situations is a matter of debate.
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Quite a lot of ,,invasive,, species are extremely beneficial for the enviroment.One such example its the eart worm thats not native to North America.Another example its the honney bee and manny otthers.
But the most beneficial ,,invasive alien,, in my opinion its the asian carp thogh i will stop here since this is a post about iguanas :D .
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Iguanas are most likely native to Florida since they are native to Cuba( a few species).
There are even iguana fossils found in somme Florida shales.
If your affraid of Salmonella,then never eat ducks or duck eggs and hope that a duck wont poo in your pool while flying.
This hype about ,,invasive,,specie its political and has nothing to do with ecology.I think its just people that are manipulated by politicians to hate something so that it unites them,like hating immigrants or certain religious or semitic comunityes.
Funny its that the hate hits back as you can see these ,, rioters ecologists,, wreak havoc their own country land and do more harm than good because its politics not science at the base of their ideology.
I am sure I have posted it in response to a similar comment in the past but here goes again.
https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/profiles/reptiles/green-iguana/ (https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/profiles/reptiles/green-iguana/)
The green Iguana is not native to Florida.
Regarding invasives, what can I say in response to your statement, sometimes it is best to shut up and shake your head. But it is not this time. I live in Florida and see the damage from invasives, even plants, can do. When some species are released into places where they have no predators and especially can reproduce is large numbers, they cause havoc.
The pythons in South Florida significantly reduced the population of fur-bearing animals in a most un-natural way - read this if you care (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/newly-discovered-hybrid-pythons-are-threatening-floridas-wildlife-180970178/ (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/newly-discovered-hybrid-pythons-are-threatening-floridas-wildlife-180970178/)). Snakes made it to Guam and they did a non-political number - read if you care (https://www.sciencealert.com/guam-s-plague-of-snakes-is-having-a-devastating-impact-on-the-trees (https://www.sciencealert.com/guam-s-plague-of-snakes-is-having-a-devastating-impact-on-the-trees))
If you were just trolling for a reaction, OK, you got me. .. but you contribute such interesting and mostly factual info that I couldn't ignore this. People may believe it based your creds.
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Here is the link to the discussion in September
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=33485.msg365405#msg365405 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=33485.msg365405#msg365405)
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Iguanas are most likely native to Florida since they are native to Cuba( a few species).
There are even iguana fossils found in somme Florida shales.
If your affraid of Salmonella,then never eat ducks or duck eggs and hope that a duck wont poo in your pool while flying.
This hype about ,,invasive,,specie its political and has nothing to do with ecology.I think its just people that are manipulated by politicians to hate something so that it unites them,like hating immigrants or certain religious or semitic comunityes.
Funny its that the hate hits back as you can see these ,, rioters ecologists,, wreak havoc their own country land and do more harm than good because its politics not science at the base of their ideology.
I am sure I have posted it in response to a similar comment in the past but here goes again.
https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/profiles/reptiles/green-iguana/ (https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/profiles/reptiles/green-iguana/)
The green Iguana is not native to Florida.
Regarding invasives, what can I say in response to your statement, sometimes it is best to shut up and shake your head. But it is not this time. I live in Florida and see the damage from invasives, even plants, can do. When some species are released into places where they have no predators and especially can reproduce is large numbers, they cause havoc.
The pythons in South Florida significantly reduced the population of fur-bearing animals in a most un-natural way - read this if you care (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/newly-discovered-hybrid-pythons-are-threatening-floridas-wildlife-180970178/ (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/newly-discovered-hybrid-pythons-are-threatening-floridas-wildlife-180970178/)). Snakes made it to Guam and they did a non-political number - read if you care (https://www.sciencealert.com/guam-s-plague-of-snakes-is-having-a-devastating-impact-on-the-trees (https://www.sciencealert.com/guam-s-plague-of-snakes-is-having-a-devastating-impact-on-the-trees))
If you were just trolling for a reaction, OK, you got me. .. but you contribute such interesting and mostly factual info that I couldn't ignore this. People may believe it based your creds.
I apologise if it looked like trolling.And no,im not trolling.
Green iguana its not native to Florida until you find a green iguana fossil that will change everything.
We did it here recently with jackals that are considered invasive until somewhone found somme jackal fossil ( not even a fossil but like just 3000 years old remains) and now its a native animal.
What im saying its that science not politics should be used to asses the ecological role of an invasive specie.
Sadly its the politics that rule the science.
Off course there are bad invasive species too but not all should be considered the same.
Invasive earth worms are a blessing for the enviroment while the snake head fish in Florida i think its the worst invader a country can get.
Iguanas can be good to the native ecosystems in Florida because they spread native flora seeds.Its the opposite of the snakes examples in the links youve posted.
Maybe iguanas eat those endangered Florida paw paws and spread their seeds.This could be important because the giant sloth that used to ate the pawpaws and disperse their seeds is extinct.
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Do mosquitoes have souls huh? :-\ Frozen Iguana is a South Florida thing but I would say tennis anyone!!! :)
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So, order is restored.
Of course sometimes exotics are introduced to help manage other exotics. It is at the core of biological controls.
You study and carefully select in the hope that the biological control itself is non-invasive.
Of course some exotics turn out beneficial, we spent time and money trying to control large exotic apple snails till we realized the snail kite had evolved to feed on the new larger snails. The population of snail kite rebounded thanks to this exotic competitor that was pushing out its smaller native competition.
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Would be nice to see the Florida panther make a rebound, feasting on abundant iguanids.
People would really freak out if large cats started showing up in their neighborhoods.
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Sea Walnut, that is like saying that Ceausescu was a peaceful ruler and that Bucharest has no stray dogs. Please check facts with reputable sources...
Carolyn
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It's the invasive primates in Florida that I find most distasteful, they have destroyed everything they touched, while pointing their filthy fingers at every other newcomer.
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It's the invasive primates in Florida that I find most distasteful, they have destroyed everything they touched, while pointing their filthy fingers at every other newcomer.
Have you heard about all the unnecessary toll roads they want to build now crisscrossing Florida? Just so private interests and politicians can stuff their pockets with money!!
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It's the invasive primates in Florida that I find most distasteful, they have destroyed everything they touched, while pointing their filthy fingers at every other newcomer.
True, we are the worst.
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Living in Florida for the last 4 decades or so, I've seen tilapia & oscars nearly wipe-out native bluegill & bass, hydrilla and hyacinth takeover freshwater bodies, Brazilian pepper claim acres upon acres of land, and that's just the first three that come to mind. Keeping this as respectful as possible, this talk of uncontrollable invasives benefiting a native ecology is madness. The introduction of rats to New Zealand helped control their flightless bird population, but arguing there was any benefit in those rats with a Kiwi would not go well.
Fossil records can prove a species once existed in a region, but it has little relevance to current ecology. There's a balance crafted over eons, a delicate state of order. A species that hasn't existed natively for millennia is no longer part of that order.
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There is no such thing as a delicate balance of nature, any assemblage of organisms is an accident of geology, geography, and time. Likewise the terms "native", "exotic" etc. have absolutely no biological meaning whatsoever.
A few interesting books on the subject:
The New Wild by Fred Pearce
Inheritors of the Earth by Chris D. Thomas
Invasion Biology: Critique of a Pseudoscience by David I. Theodoropoulos
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Living in Florida for the last 4 decades or so, I've seen tilapia & oscars nearly wipe-out native bluegill & bass, hydrilla and hyacinth takeover freshwater bodies, Brazilian pepper claim acres upon acres of land, and that's just the first three that come to mind. Keeping this as respectful as possible, this talk of uncontrollable invasives benefiting a native ecology is madness. The introduction of rats to New Zealand helped control their flightless bird population, but arguing there was any benefit in those rats with a Kiwi would not go well.
Fossil records can prove a species once existed in a region, but it has little relevance to current ecology. There's a balance crafted over eons, a delicate state of order. A species that hasn't existed natively for millennia is no longer part of that order.
Im not starting to hijack this forum again,but there are beneficial invasives like the invasive earthworms,the non native honney bee and my favorite the silver carp ( most hated asian carp,the one that jumps).
You must know the Florida red tides that wipe out whole ecosistems.Its caused by eutrophisation wich only the siver carp can stop effectivelly.
Same for the lake Erie,the most poluted lake in the world and its giant in size,the silver carp could have stopped that eutrophisation.
In Florida now you have snake heads that eat Tilapia and oscars and they will wipe them out with otther native species.This fish even comes on land to hunt and would kill a great white shark of the same size or even slightly bigger( just fora metaphoric comparison as these do not live in the same enviroment ).
But the most mind blowing calculation i made its that silver carps could have saved The Great Barrier Reef and that would probably have stopped global warming because the coral skeleton contains 50% carbonate.
Corals are verry sensitive to the slightest eutrophisation( ie ,too much ,,fertiliser,, in the water.
Basically the Great Barrier Reef was killed with sewage water by a nation that has the toughest anti invasive life forms policies.
Hating ,,invasives,, through politics and not using the most basic science like understanding the phosphorus cycle in nature and eutrophisation hits back.
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Preserving native ecosystems only seem important when convenient. History shows tunes change quickly when it comes to apex predators. Grizzly bears, wolves, even American alligators and crocodiles were nearly wiped out in Florida at one point. Alligators/crocs have made a great comeback with our help but I doubt we ever see grizzly bears roaming the coasts of northern California (or anywhere in California) again.
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There is no such thing as a delicate balance of nature[....]
Call it what you want, checks & balances, there's a general stasis in native ecology. Over-growth/population by one native species is generally countered/regulated by another within the system. Introducing invasive species with no natural counters within the system can devastate native species. Pythons are wiping out native populations of raccoons, deer, possums, etc., in the Everglades without any checks on their spread. Will the native system eventually find some counter to the explosive growth of an invasive species, whether it be predator, plague or otherwise? Certainly, but also almost certainly too late to save some native species.
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For those of us in Florida for an education in historical terms you need to be aware that our current ecosystem is less than 10,000 years old, more like less than 5,000. During and after the last ice age our land was a barren desert of sand dunes with no surface water, no Everglades or Okeechobee, and nearly twice as wide as oceans had receded. This important book explains how the present evolved and how humans came to exist as the change from Sahara to present ecosystem happened.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Evolution_of_Calusa/doMp9LtdZiAC?hl=en&gbpv=1 (https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Evolution_of_Calusa/doMp9LtdZiAC?hl=en&gbpv=1)
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Iguanas are most likely native to Florida since they are native to Cuba( a few species).
There are even iguana fossils found in somme Florida shales.
If your affraid of Salmonella,then never eat ducks or duck eggs and hope that a duck wont poo in your pool while flying.
This hype about ,,invasive,,specie its political and has nothing to do with ecology.I think its just people that are manipulated by politicians to hate something so that it unites them,like hating immigrants or certain religious or semitic comunityes.
Funny its that the hate hits back as you can see these ,, rioters ecologists,, wreak havoc their own country land and do more harm than good because its politics not science at the base of their ideology.
I am sure I have posted it in response to a similar comment in the past but here goes again.
https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/profiles/reptiles/green-iguana/ (https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/profiles/reptiles/green-iguana/)
The green Iguana is not native to Florida.
Regarding invasives, what can I say in response to your statement, sometimes it is best to shut up and shake your head. But it is not this time. I live in Florida and see the damage from invasives, even plants, can do. When some species are released into places where they have no predators and especially can reproduce is large numbers, they cause havoc.
The pythons in South Florida significantly reduced the population of fur-bearing animals in a most un-natural way - read this if you care (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/newly-discovered-hybrid-pythons-are-threatening-floridas-wildlife-180970178/ (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/newly-discovered-hybrid-pythons-are-threatening-floridas-wildlife-180970178/)). Snakes made it to Guam and they did a non-political number - read if you care (https://www.sciencealert.com/guam-s-plague-of-snakes-is-having-a-devastating-impact-on-the-trees (https://www.sciencealert.com/guam-s-plague-of-snakes-is-having-a-devastating-impact-on-the-trees))
If you were just trolling for a reaction, OK, you got me. .. but you contribute such interesting and mostly factual info that I couldn't ignore this. People may believe it based your creds.
I apologise if it looked like trolling.And no,im not trolling.
Green iguana its not native to Florida until you find a green iguana fossil that will change everything.
We did it here recently with jackals that are considered invasive until somewhone found somme jackal fossil ( not even a fossil but like just 3000 years old remains) and now its a native animal.
What im saying its that science not politics should be used to asses the ecological role of an invasive specie.
Sadly its the politics that rule the science.
Off course there are bad invasive species too but not all should be considered the same.
Invasive earth worms are a blessing for the enviroment while the snake head fish in Florida i think its the worst invader a country can get.
Iguanas can be good to the native ecosystems in Florida because they spread native flora seeds.Its the opposite of the snakes examples in the links youve posted.
Maybe iguanas eat those endangered Florida paw paws and spread their seeds.This could be important because the giant sloth that used to ate the pawpaws and disperse their seeds is extinct.
Invasive earthworms alter the ecology of environments they are not native too and can cause decomposition rates that are not what they were. This alters the micro biology and beyond. I am a restoration ecologist and have done work in temperate and tropical systems. If you think invasive species are political then you obviously have no understanding of invasive species ecology or likely ecology in general. I can send you some papers and provide you heaps of anecdotal evidence that invasive species destroy habitats for all organisms that are native and once occupied those areas.
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For those of us in Florida for an education in historical terms you need to be aware that our current ecosystem is less than 10,000 years old, more like less than 5,000. During and after the last ice age our land was a barren desert of sand dunes with no surface water, no Everglades or Okeechobee, and nearly twice as wide as oceans had receded. This important book explains how the present evolved and how humans came to exist as the change from Sahara to present ecosystem happened.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Evolution_of_Calusa/doMp9LtdZiAC?hl=en&gbpv=1 (https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Evolution_of_Calusa/doMp9LtdZiAC?hl=en&gbpv=1)
We are in an ice age now!
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Nattyfroootz, i am a professional ecologist like you have those from EPA in the US.
Trying to teach me ecology would be like trying to teach your father how to make kids.
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Oh nice, well then maybe you can educate me with some evidence to support your stance?
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Oh nice, well then maybe you can educate me with some evidence to support your stance?
I allready said all i had to say but probably because of my bad language people skip my rambling messages.
For instance the most hated silver carps( asian carps) eat algae that feed on phosphorus ( algae because they are not plants they need only phosphorus because they can take the nitrogen directly from air likr bacteria).
Most peacefull fish the jumping carp its a harmless filter feeder that eats algae and traps phosphorus into its skeleton thus locking the phosphorus because bones are not soluble in water.
Phosphorus its mostly found in nature as calcium phosphate ( like the bones of the carp).
Phosphorus acumulation has caused the Lake Erie to die of eutrophisation wich led to the establishment of EPA and clear water act( all of these because Lake Erie crashed).
Now a days Lake Erie has 3 times more phosphorus in it than it had when EPA was created and its a time bomb ,dies every autumn from eutrophisation.
If you had jumping silver carps in that lake it would have reduced the phosphate and the lake wouldnt have died from eutrophisation .
Silver carps could have been protecting that native ecosystem without causing any harm ( they eat only algae that are in excess from polution from sewage,detergents ,etc).
You can google eutrophisation and phosphorus cycle and see for yourself how the asian carps can stop it.
Its logical that an ecksystem is better without even the beneficial ,,invasive,, animals or plants ,but once people got there and pour sewage water in the lake for decades and phosphorus builds up ,it becomes an altered enviroment and its much better to protect it than to let it die and all the ecosystem to die from eutrophisation.
Silver carps can heal the lakes and clean the water for free but its not what politicians want.They want monney and if the silver carps dont bring monney they dont care about the enviroment.
They teach you to hate this humble iet magnificent fish and instead they come up with useless wasted monney projects like using harmfull chemicals to clean the phosphate ( LaCl) because selling ( verry inneficient compared to these carps)chemicals fills their pockets with monney.
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I read through them but those statements are focusing on a single aspect but ignore the ecology of the lake. Yeah eutrophication is bad, but it is seasonal and in large part leaves the ecological dynamics that have been long established intact. It sounds like you are talking about "permaculture" solutions to "ecological" problems.
What do ecologists or politicians have to gain from not having this exotic carp species in lake Michigan that makes it so political?
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I read through them but those statements are focusing on a single aspect but ignore the ecology of the lake. Yeah eutrophication is bad, but it is seasonal and in large part leaves the ecological dynamics that have been long established intact. It sounds like you are talking about "permaculture" solutions to "ecological" problems.
What do ecologists or politicians have to gain from not having this exotic carp species in lake Michigan that makes it so political?
Im not talking about permaculture because these carps its not necesarely to be harvested .
It will be fine if the silver carps die of old age in the lake.Their skeleton sinks to the bottom and the phosphorus they colected troughout their life into the bones its not soluble in water and stays locked.Their skeleton its a phosphorus sink ,verry efficient and they have zero negative impact on native wildlife because they eat only planctonic algae wich are in excess.
You think eutrophisation its not big deal but eutrophisation killed The Great Barrier Reef.corals are verry sensitive to phosphorus .They need cristal clear water and even the slightest eutrophisation wipes them out .
Nature can recover but manny endemic species have vanished due to eutrophisation .
After a lake dies because of the pgosphorus,its repopulated again with wildlife but that original ecosystem had vanished.
Basically lake Erie fauna its just a few years old while in lake Ohrid in Europe,lake Baikal, ,that fauna its probably milions of years old .
I dont know what do politicians gain ( its absurd to include ecologists here because an ecologist knows at least the phosphorus cycle and that the asian jumping carp its harmless) but its probably what they dont gain wich led them to ignore it.
I think they teach people to hate these animals because of ,,invasive,, word .Its like hating immigrants,otther religions or races.Politicians use hate to bring people together.But their hate has nothing to do with the most basic science or ecology.
This manipulation is used by both,leftists and right wingers politicians and scientists are ignored or they have to become biased to suit their politician boss agenda.
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Well, I think you are glossing over major parts and focusing only on one small piece of the cycle. Do you have any sources or papers to support your claims of jumping asian carpet being harmless to other wildlife? Or any sources?
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Well, I think you are glossing over major parts and focusing only on one small piece of the cycle. Do you have any sources or papers to support your claims of jumping asian carpet being harmless to other wildlife? Or any sources?
That you can google yourself.I know well the biology of the fish and i am not even thinking where i could find references since this would be like asking me about references on why 2+2 =4.
But if you are indeed an enviromentalist and care for references it should be easy for you to find them in english language.
And im not focusing on just one enviromental issue.My job its to take samples or water,soil and air and measure them in the lab and i also asses ecosistems and take actions to restore them.
Off course on certain issues like the asian carp,im more qualifyed than otthers.
Basically if you google youl see this carp has somme sponges,no stomack and it eats while it breathe by filtering the water with those sponges.Doesnt eat otther fish or animals eggs or plants and has a big skeleton wich stores a lot of phosphorus.
This fish could have saved the Great Barrier Reef wich in turn could have saved the whole planet from global warming.
Because stony corals skeleton are a carbon sink ( calcium carbonate).
A dead GBR its like having a dead Amazon forest and it died because of human ignorance not even for profit or to benefit the civilisation.
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Order is not restored after all.
Silver Carp is an invasive brought in by scientists to control algae, exactly what you are proposing (at least as I understand you)?
Quote below from an article on Sierra club's website. The full story is about finding a good use for this invasive, cooking and eating it.
"The presence of silver carp in the Mississippi dates back to the 1960s, when scientists in Arkansas brought a few different species of Asian carp into the country to see if they might offer a chemical-free way to clean algae out of fish ponds. When funding for the experiment dried up, the fish were released to the waterways and swiftly began outcompeting local fish. Today Asian carp—mostly bighead, silver, and grass carp—make up 90 percent of the biomass in parts of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers."
What is that proverb again, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Here is a balanced story about silver carp. Worth reading.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5542199 (https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5542199)
ALL SAID, I can not share your conclusion that this species is a beneficial invasive in most of the US. It is like suggesting that the melaleuca (uinquenervia) is a great tree in Florida, it isn't. SOmeone brought it in to stabilize soils and drain wet areas, but it got loose. Bet it did the job on that one spot but most of natural south Florida is dealing with a problem now.
Do you also think the old world climbing fern (Lygodium microphyllum) is a good thing for Florida? I bet someone liked it, it did what they wanted, only problem is it escaped cultivation and with no natural controls is decimating parts of Florida including tree islands in the everglades. We are spending hundreds of millions trying to control it. https://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/plant-directory/lygodium-microphyllum/ (https://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/plant-directory/lygodium-microphyllum/)
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This fish could have saved the Great Barrier Reef wich in turn could have saved the whole planet from global warming.
Because stony corals skeleton are a carbon sink ( calcium carbonate).
A dead GBR its like having a dead Amazon forest and it died because of human ignorance not even for profit or to benefit the civilisation.
The premise that the Great Barrier reef is dead is wrong.
2017 explanation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcjaQYcsr-w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcjaQYcsr-w)
3 months ago, from Australian Broadcasting News in-depth:
"Bottom line is the reef is not dying, there are some parts of the reef which are degraded but there are other parts which are absolutely magnificent"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqqs7kxHbw0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqqs7kxHbw0)
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It's rare to find a conversation where someone is advocating FOR invasive species, so I appreciate the debate and research it's prompted me to do. I agree that honey bees have largely been a positive addition, but I would counter that they don't fit the definition of "invasive" since they haven't displaced any native species. Regarding earthworms, there are actually multiple native North American earthworms, but they have largely been displaced by bigger, more aggressive European and Asian species. Nattyfroootz is also correct, their impact on forests (for one) has not been positive. The claim that carp could save the Great Barrier Reef is pure hyperbole. Nutrient-rich runoff is a small part of the problem, but coral "bleaching" from increased water temperature, oceanic absorption of atmospheric CO2, and the crown-of-thorns starfish (which alone has caused ~40% of the loss) are much bigger issues.
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Stony corals bleaching its mainly triggered by phosphates.
Corals are photosynthetic.They host zooxanthelae wich are like algae.Give them phosphorus and they take the nitrogen from air and ,,bloom,,inside the ckrals wich make them to spit them out and become transparent but still alive thogh they will die of starvation afterwards.
Coral bleaching when you see dead coral skeletons that look white from hot enviroment its just a dead coral not a bleached coral.
First they become brown from too much zooxanthelae then they spit them out and the coral polips look like transparent glass.
Ask any reefer if corals like phosphorus and youl see.
Somme lagoon type corals are more resistant to dirrty water and higher P,but those do not build reefs ( they are soft corals) or somme that do,they grow extremely slow and are not a big carbon sink like the fast growing sensitive corals (SPS,mainly Acropora and Montipora sp).
The silver carps do reduce the phosphorus from the water by a lot so its easy to understand that keeping the fish on wate water ponds would reduce the P from sewage that goes into the ocean.
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Sorry sea walnut, your opinion is baseless without support. That's the problem nowadays, people spew their opinion like it's a fact all over the internet but have no actual support. I see so many holes in your argument but you ignore them completely. You keep saying the same thing but ignore the greater ecology of the ecosystems you speak of.
Also, honeybees are actually displacing native bees! They forage and obtain resources that native bees would otherwise use. It's not something most people know about because we treasure the honey bee so much. Plant native species and create habitats that support native bee populations!
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Sorry sea walnut, your opinion is baseless without support. That's the problem nowadays, people spew their opinion like it's a fact all over the internet but have no actual support. I see so many holes in your argument but you ignore them completely. You keep saying the same thing but ignore the greater ecology of the ecosystems you speak of.
Also, honeybees are actually displacing native bees! They forage and obtain resources that native bees would otherwise use. It's not something most people know about because we treasure the honey bee so much. Plant native species and create habitats that support native bee populations!
You are wrong even about the honney bees because they collect at max 15-20 percent of the pollen and nectar from the flowers and they increase pollination by a lot wich means there will be more fruits and seeds and future plants with flowers for them and the native pollinators to enjoy.
There is soo much nectar in nature that where i go at fishing and im sitting under somme big willow trees infested with aphids ,it literally rains with droplets of nectar and everything gets sticky from it.There are tens of thousands of beehives there side by side for kilometers.
Somme plants have evolved to put nectar in the soil to atract bacteria and get Nitrogen( the nitrogen fixers).
You can never have enough bees.
But i like the most the example with the silver carps because that clearly shows how people are manipulated into the wrong direction.
You say i have no support but i think i have since i can use these carps to restore the most degraded lakes here and they are used all over the world ,even in USA .You basically can have no argument against this carp and i know it because i am a professional enviromentalist( i apply the enviromental laws here).
With the knowledge you can ,,steal,,from me you can troll any fake or misguided enviromentalist scientist at the highest level thats against the carps and you win.
The sad part its that these countryes that ,,protect themselves,, from invasive species ( wich its not a bad thing to do) ,have created the most polluted waters and possibly ,in the case of Great Barrier Reef killed with sewage,the biggest destruction of the enviroment on Terra in history and biggest mass extinction of species made by man.
All of that because they didnt cared to learn the phosphorus cycle.
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15 to 20 percent? that's a pretty specific statement, still no sources to support that?
Honeybees:
Some light reading:
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/01/27/581007165/honeybees-help-farmers-but-they-dont-help-the-environment (https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/01/27/581007165/honeybees-help-farmers-but-they-dont-help-the-environment)
A published article:
Positive and Negative Impacts of Non-Native Bee Species around the World
Laura Russo
Asian Carp:
https://www.nps.gov/miss/learn/nature/ascarpover.htm (https://www.nps.gov/miss/learn/nature/ascarpover.htm)
This article specifically contradicts you, mentioning that the Asian Carp competes for food (plankton) and space with native species.
Let me know if you would like more, this was a quick google search that allowed me to add credibility to my argument rather than more anecdotal emotion.
Aphids:
Aphids are sucking/piercing insects and they defecate a honey dew. It's not nectar from bees.
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The article on bees its stupid because the honney bees dont just extract the nectar from nature and give nothing back.They extract somme nectar and give back pollination wich means more fruits for wild native birds and animals to eat ,more seeds from wich the wild ,native plants to grow and make more flowers that will produce more nectar for the honney bees themselves and the native pollinators.
Also ,the native polinators are a lot more suited than honney bees for their enviroment and there is no competition the native polinators can not win.
Native pollinators like bumble bees are more adapted to cold and visit flowers first ,before the bees wake up or they have longer tongues like butterflyes,etc.
The only downside of having honney bees is the beekeeper that could plant exotic invasive specie of flowering plants but not the bees themselves.
Bees collect that honney dew from aphids and make a dark honney called forrest honney wich is expensive because it doesnt contains pollen grains and its the only honney that people with pollen allergies can eat.
As for the carps i allready pointed you to read wikipedia at least about eutrophisation.
They dont compete with native species for plancton because there is too much plancton because of the sewage that causes the eutrophisation/ death of a lake or of the GBR.
That article basically says that asian carps eat a lot of plancton wich is good,means they clean the water well.
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Sorry Seawalnut, I'm done reading about your opinion. But if you would like to send me some sources that have legitimate arguments I'd love to read them.
Spreading misinformation on the internet is dangerous, people will believe anyone who sounds knowledgable on a subject. Being able to back up claims with evidence is important in protecting the integrity of science and not exploiting those who might not totally understand a subject.
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Wow palm city you sure opened a can of invasive earth worms with this topic. It was a very interesting read. Thanks for the book recommendations Botanicus I ordered”the new wild”. Thanks to sea walnut too for your input.
I have often grappled with the issues addressed in this topic. For example where I live in FNQ Australia we are close to PNG and the land has been connected in past ice ages but plants from PNG are considered exotic pests even though I am closer to PNG than my state capitol Brisbane (Brisanus) but plants brought here from around Brisbane are “native “
The same thing here with the coconut palm. Some people here say chop them down they are not native but if early European explorers found some trees they would have been native even if they were brought here by indigenous people. In fact there were a few coconut trees in isolated areas and would have been more if the white tail rats did not eat them and Aboriginal people did not cut them down for the heart of palm. In fact where I live the debate on whether to cut down the coconut tress was decided by the Aboriginal people who said you must be crazy to chop down such a useful tree!
The same thing with the dingo in Australia. The dingo was brought out with South Indian seafarers 3000 odd years ago and is considered a native animal but the common dog which can interbred with the dingo is a non native pest. It is almost white guilt like if a white guy introduces it it is an invasive but if was a brown or black guy it is a native.
The fact is the earth is one planet and for billions of years organisms have been on the move. Be it fish eggs hitching a ride on a bird to a new continent or a coconut floating across an ocean to a new shore. We humans have dramatically altered the equation but we too are part of the ecosystem we are in the process of trashing. It is a little comfort to read that some species are thriving in this 6th extinction event now known as the Anthropocene and when us humans are dead and gone some species will have benefited from us the naked ape.
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Thanks Luke.Quite a lot of people in Australia think like you .
Now a few links for Nattyfroootz as he repeatedly requested.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00765007 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00765007)
About beneficial silver carp again: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468550X18300868 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468550X18300868)
And this is the last nail in the coffin about silver carps https://books.google.ro/books?id=BWS1DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA365&lpg=PA365&dq=silver+carps+eutrophication&source=bl&ots=UT8eLUDSXR&sig=ACfU3U2ngSfHFmZobDQk-4SKYZh6iOuEFA&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiEkavFgKDnAhVJIMUKHaHjDvIQ6AEwGHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=silver%20carps%20eutrophication&f=false (https://books.google.ro/books?id=BWS1DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA365&lpg=PA365&dq=silver+carps+eutrophication&source=bl&ots=UT8eLUDSXR&sig=ACfU3U2ngSfHFmZobDQk-4SKYZh6iOuEFA&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiEkavFgKDnAhVJIMUKHaHjDvIQ6AEwGHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=silver%20carps%20eutrophication&f=false)
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Control of eutrophication by silver carp (Hypophthalmichthys molitrix)
in the tropical Parano6 Reservoir (Brasilia, Brazil): a mesocosm
experiment
Summary: Ex-situ experiment, meaning that it was conducted in fish tanks and is observing solely phytoplankton and chemical variables. They did not find that the carp affected the concentrations of Phosphorous, although they did consume high amounts of phytoplankton specifically.
Compared to your claims: Did not remove phosphorous as you had stated, no evidence or tests on effects of ecology of aquatic ecosystems.
Biological manipulation of eutrophication in West Yangchen Lake
Summary: Conducted in situ, in a lake in China, in enclosures. Testing the density of Silver-carp on phytoplankton density and increasing water quality. They found that Silvercarp are responsible for limiting algal blooms when they are stocked at a higher density.
Compared to your claims: Yes, they can control algal blooms. There is no mention of the effects they have on the greater ecology of the lake( other organisms within the ecosystem and how they interact).
The last link is a book compiling endless information about the Biomanipulation of environments to meet end goals of cleaning up eutrophication. A few points mentioned bring up the fact that they are using SilverCarp to outcompete and balance a lake invaded by Tilapia, which contributes to the eutrophication. There is no discussion of the overall ecology and this book speaks directly to eutrophication. I cant access the whole book because my Universities database doesn't have access.
So far, your point that invasive species are political and that Silver Carp have no effect on native populations/ecology has no support.
Your claim that silvercarp assist in control of algal blooms is valid and supported.
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The bones of the carp are made of calcium phosphate wich means that while this fish eats algae it uses somme of the phosphorus to build its skeleton.Thats why its a phosphorus sink and it is the most advanced freshwater animal that does this.
Its logical and farmers even buy and pay the most on the asian carp heads because they have the most bone weight of the fish and contain the most phosphorus( it is used as a phosphorus fertiliser).
Also look up phosphorus fertiliser made of bones.Its verry common and farmers know it.
There is no negative interaction with the organisms in the lake because this magnificent fish eats only algae ,phytoplancton wich its in excess because of the sewage created eutrophisation.
Now ,since you know this you might realise that the chinese carp could have saved the Great Barrier Reef to die from eutrophisation?
You can find manny more references but usually in otther languages as english speaking americans are totally clueless about this .They dont eat carps,dont have a ,,carp coulture,, wich aids to their loss of native ecosystems.
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So back in the 1960s some people thought exactly this and imported the carp to Arkansas. It was a trial of biological control of algae in fish ponds. Had the fish stayed in the ponds, perhaps a success story. They didn't, and now there is a problem species taking over swaths of the Mississippi and Ohio river watershed, displacing native fish and we are left trying to make lemonade (when you are handed a lemon you make lemonade - looking for a positive out of a bad thing).
I repeat the quote that I posted earlier.
"The presence of silver carp in the Mississippi dates back to the 1960s, when scientists in Arkansas brought a few different species of Asian carp into the country to see if they might offer a chemical-free way to clean algae out of fish ponds. When funding for the experiment dried up, the fish were released to the waterways and swiftly began outcompeting local fish. Today Asian carp—mostly bighead, silver, and grass carp—make up 90 percent of the biomass in parts of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers."
No one is arguing that these fish do not eat algae, that is immaterial to the conversation we are having about them being invasives, undesirable in our waterways and creating havoc for local species. Some well intentioned scientists, thinking the same thing you are thinking today, made a move in the 1960s. It turned out to have been the wrong move.
... again, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
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Those scientists were a lot smarter than todays politicians.
There is zero harmfull impact from the silver carp.
This practice is used world wide to clean water dxcept in North America and Australia wich have the biggest eutrophisation related problems in the world.
And chemicals can not save such giant water bodyes like the ocean where the Great Barrier Reef is or Lake Erie.
Chemicals are only good to treat your swimming pool at home with LaCl.
There is no solution that could come even close to the power of the silver carps at cleaning water.
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To say there is zero harmful impact from silver carp in the US (or any invasive or even native species for that matter), is simply short sighted. It's like when a pediatrician told me a prescribed medication had no side effects. Everything has myriad effects, which could be considered positive and/or negative depending on the standpoint one takes.
Major derail. Thought this was about iguanas, lol.
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Well alrighty then. It was a good time trying to talk to you.
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Whenever I'm driving thru SE FL i see a ton of green iguanas. I'm sure they are a pain in the arse. They love to chomp on flowers. We have more of the black spiny tailed iguanas on this coast and I haven't spotted them on my property so no issue. They do cause headaches for people on Boca Grande. If i had an iguana problem I would trap/kill them on my property. There's way too many of them to wipe them out completely at this point.
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Why Floridians just don't stuff a small box with baby iguanas, tegus, and a tokay gecko and send it to me is something I'll never understand. I get that Burmese pythons are illegal to import into Cali but the rest aren't.
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Do mosquitoes have souls huh? :-\ Frozen Iguana is a South Florida thing but I would say tennis anyone!!! :)
I often wonder about trees too. I think trees have some kind of spirits or soul in them.
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you should bury the iguana into your soil. Don't throw it away. It makes good fertilizer. full of plant nutrients inside them.
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So back in the 1960s some people thought exactly this and imported the carp to Arkansas. It was a trial of biological control of algae in fish ponds. Had the fish stayed in the ponds, perhaps a success story. They didn't, and now there is a problem species taking over swaths of the Mississippi and Ohio river watershed, displacing native fish and we are left trying to make lemonade (when you are handed a lemon you make lemonade - looking for a positive out of a bad thing).
I repeat the quote that I posted earlier.
"The presence of silver carp in the Mississippi dates back to the 1960s, when scientists in Arkansas brought a few different species of Asian carp into the country to see if they might offer a chemical-free way to clean algae out of fish ponds. When funding for the experiment dried up, the fish were released to the waterways and swiftly began outcompeting local fish. Today Asian carp—mostly bighead, silver, and grass carp—make up 90 percent of the biomass in parts of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers."
No one is arguing that these fish do not eat algae, that is immaterial to the conversation we are having about them being invasives, undesirable in our waterways and creating havoc for local species. Some well intentioned scientists, thinking the same thing you are thinking today, made a move in the 1960s. It turned out to have been the wrong move.
... again, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Agreed!
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I think we all forgot the most invasive species of all! And it has caused
havoc on our environment....
The Snowbird ;D
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Hello from Curacao! Just tried green iguana soup, and can highly recommend it!
Carolyn
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Taste like chicken?
I know people eat them I have not had the courage or opportunity to try it.
Can you describe what it tasted like?
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Taste like chicken?
I know people eat them I have not had the courage or opportunity to try it.
Can you describe what it tasted like?
It is a forum about fruit trees not about how does iguana meat tastes ;D.
Iguana meat its good probably in somme survival situation.
Cook it well because it has 100% sure salmonella.
I know of more than 50 kids that all got in hospital after they ate mayonaise that had by mistake one raw duck egg in it, with salmonella.
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Taste like chicken?
I know people eat them I have not had the courage or opportunity to try it.
Can you describe what it tasted like?
Orkine, they tastes like a chewy chicken. It’s quite good, and very lean.
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If you get tired of ridding your property of invasive iguana (yes green iguana eat mango & green vegetation but others red/brown etc. are nasty & like trash can food etc.), some might want to make a few bucks removing the invasive python. Here's a guy who makes a living doing it at the super bowl python hunt
https://nbc25news.com/news/nation-world/80-reptiles-caught-in-miami-super-bowl-burmese-python-hunt (https://nbc25news.com/news/nation-world/80-reptiles-caught-in-miami-super-bowl-burmese-python-hunt)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkjhimi4Gic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkjhimi4Gic)