MikeT’s Mystery Mangosteen

[happyhana]

Please tell us more about this fantastically giant example

Is it really a new variety/hybrid or just an exceptionally large fruit? I thought all mangosteens, aside from mesta, are clones

[Mike T]

Most mangosteens are just the standard what we call Thai with a flat end and large star. The assumption that they are all the same generically hasn't been borne out by genetic studies that show the hybridisation event happened several times even though asexual reproduction happens after that. While 95% are all the same thing mesta/masta is an example of a better variety getting commercialised and they are bigger.

Some may recall comparisons I did with a larger more acid and almost seedless borneo mangosteen a few years ago with the standard. Large leafed trees, smaller tree types and bigger fruited types are around in borneo and a few are circulating. The pictured ones were collected in Borneo around January by friends and no seeds survived the exit. Only about one small seed per fruit was available. It is a pointier, larger type but with a prominent terminal star.

[Mike T]

Just to clarify the picture on the glass table compared the standard to a small apical stared almost seedless type and the one in hand is something different and both are not mesta/masta. Maybe there is diffrences in cold tolerance, precocity etc. A small leafed big fruited borneo types was planted here over 30 years ago on a farm with the standard ones as well. They proved successful in that they were more productive, had bigger fruit and opened their account earlier. A cyclone messed with things and the farm was sold and I can't access them any more.

[Mike T]

Just google genetic diversity in mangosteens and you will see being apomictic hasn't held them back.I know there are at least 4 or 5 odd and different types in my area and most are just one or two trees.

[happyhana]

Thank you for all the great info. Fascinating there have been multiple hybridization events.

My understanding is that mesta and hybrids other than Thai type are larger but more sour. This would be welcomed by me but I wonder if the market at large expects and desires a sweeter fruit. Have the more sour hybrids been tested in the marketplace to your knowledge?

[Mike T]

They are not all more sour and some are virtually seedless so propagation is held back. The standard got circulated everywhere and only recently people have said hang on what about these other variations. As far as I know only mesta is commercial of non-standards and the farm that was here only had maybe 50 trees of their borneo small leafed, big fruited type. They were popular and preferred, however. I have a tree that is a borneo big leafed type that prefers it more shady and fruit look similar to standards but maybe a difference in flavour profile.
A farm that planted out many trees from seed from many sources had one tree fruit much earlier that the rest but looked the same although fruit were a bit cleaner in appearance.It fruited in is 5h year. I grew one from that tree and it fruited in 5 years and under 5 feet high also so I suspect it is a genetic thing.The fruit also are less seedy and very clean looking.

[Mike T]

Getting enough seeds is an issue as I once had to mow through a whole box of the borneo small leafed mangosteens for 2 seeds. That is what is holding back a few of the really good ones. I had the same problem with lin and laplae durians. One seed in every 10 or more fruit of the most expensive variety. I only got one seed that grew. No one is rich enough to get enough seeds to plant a field of seedlings of these also.

[happyhana]

Haha, great that mangosteen seeds are clonal but doesn’t help if you’ve found a nearly seedless variety. Suppose you could graft, but growing out a few seeds for scions would take forever.

Other difficulties, like you said, are cultural differences. Although some may produce earlier and larger there would be a learning curve to maximize production. I’ve read the Thai mangosteen likes a prescribed drying out to initiate heavy flowering, who knows if this techniques works with others.

If the pandemic wasn’t happening I’d be interested in a Borneo mangosteen seed hunt. I’m currently starting seeds for a 100 mangosteen tree planting and the plant nerd in me would love some different varieties.

[happyhana]

Your Borneo big leaf type that prefers more shade, does it maintain good production?

A shade loving productive mangosteen could open up denser plantings, intercropping with nitrogen fixing timber species or a layered fruit forest. Right now I’m planning on a 9m between trees and 10m between rows to prevent shading.

[sunny]

I'm familiar with the Thai mangosteens, we get the small ones in Thailand because big ones are exported. Sometimes locals sell from their own tree's and then we get full sized mangosteens.

In Malaysia and Singapore they import the mesta from Indonesia which are sold on the streets. They taste the same, have the same size, only have a different shape. I brought them back to Thailand to show my friends who also thought it was the same fruit.

The big ones also have big seeds...

[Mike T]

Mesta is a clone and Sunny is right that they don't taste too different from the standards. My large leafed one is a more irregular bearer than usual and most years has a main crop in the rainy season and a light one in the dry season. It can have a few odd fruit in between especially if its been dry and sudden rain comes to trigger flowering.

[Raulglezruiz]

Mail difference with Mesta vs regular ones is the flesh is way more firm and less juicy making them more enjoyable when eating..

[happyhana]

Does mesta or another variety have lower instances of gamboge and translucent flesh?

That’s my main gripe with mangosteens, as a buyer and future seller. My excitement is often tempered with the surprise discovery of yellow gunk or the more stealthy gummy flesh. I’m a novice and can’t discern these conditions from outside of fruit. I’ve bought from a couple growers on island selling terrible mangosteens, it kinda shocks me and really hurts the market overall.

[Mike T]

Mesta and most other types besides the standard have far less gombage but flesh is the same colour. The standard is probably the most common because it has far more 'seeds' than others so is easier to propagate new ones.

[happyhana]

Wow, “far less gamboge”, thanks Mike.

For the large time and space investment of a mangosteen orchard, sounds like I need to find seeds of the other types.

Any qualities of Thai type that are superior?

[Mike T]

The Thai type is the standard and same one that is everywhere. They are sweet, but can be seedy and some others have a but more acid tang.