Organic lychee management

[850FL]

I am very dedicated to organic methods so I don't want to use conventional practices.  I agree that the weather is warmer where I live but I also live very close to farms that have trees that do produce lychees (including organic farms) so it can't be impossible.

Extremely difficult organically.

Do you prune in mid-summer?

Then how did the Asians go about it thousands of years ago? I do realize they’re fully adapted to Asian climate and soil but there must be another factor that provokes production like someone else said possibly certain fungi

[Jaboticaba45]

I am very dedicated to organic methods so I don't want to use conventional practices.  I agree that the weather is warmer where I live but I also live very close to farms that have trees that do produce lychees (including organic farms) so it can't be impossible.

Extremely difficult organically.

Do you prune in mid-summer?

Then how did the Asians go about it thousands of years ago? I do realize they’re fully adapted to Asian climate and soil but there must be another factor that provokes production like someone else said possibly certain fungi

If I'm not mistaken in Asia there are more pronounced wet/dry sesasons that trigger flowering opposed to cold in FL.

[850FL]

You’re right, monsoons and whatnot

[850FL]

Seems like this guy needs a protocol to follow..
Lots of heavy mulch with a variety of ingredients, mature soil inoculate, Lots of irrigation during part of the year (summer only?), only apply organic fertilizer high in N during part of the year (again, only summer? And I’d recommend seaweed extract or whatever they call it), pruning and or girdling in mid-July, spray for mites, maybe add ice bags in the dead of winter, and a teaspoon of ocean water LOL

Also I’m surprised it’s a Brewster that won’t produce since I read so much that they are one of the top producers in yield and consistency (someone correct me if I’m wrong). And one more thing are your tree’s leaves indicating a lack of any nutrients? Does the new growth look veiny and chlorotic?

[Seanny]

Does anyone have experience with the ice bag suggestion I got?  It makes sense since the tree needs to be chilled right?

It does make sense.
You should try it.

Put some temperature sensors deep into the root zone.
Add ice to maintain temperature drop for a week.
Too cold and wet could kill the tree.

If your tree was smaller you could cover with plastic and run A/C into it at night.
Just need a few nights.

Or break a rule and try this
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322288573_Effect_of_Foliar_Spray_of_Chemicals_on_Flowering_and_Fruiting_in_Litchi

[LycheeLust]

Here’s some info I found from a lychee grower:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1918599125074126/permalink/2188331551434214/

Copied from Facebook post:
“ Fertilizing Lychee explained .

1.  avoid using in ground or on ground fertilizers ( especialy graular ) as the release is governed by water amounts not fertilizer amount ( too much will hurt it , too little poor results )

2. Lychee prefer to absorb their fertiliser through leafs rather than roots

3. use liquid fertilizers desighned for leaf absorbsion they love the stuff & you will see results in days . ( also exess rain will reduce amounts of fertilizer not increase so no root burn )

4. mulch is only good to insulate the soil , the results you get are from reduced hydro / temerature shock not nutrients delivered

5. test your water needs to PH neutral ( same as rain water )

6. fertilizing after fruit formation is done to help set fruit , the flip side is if you over water the fruit will split on the tree .

PS .. if you are growing in pots feel your pot during the day if hot wrap in tin foil

use bigger pots , lychee roots grow down across the botton then up the sides before filling middle of pot ( compared to growing out evenly from middle ) it will give you stronger roots .

during flowering do not water over leaves or let rain fall on flowers the nitrogen will burn the flowers resulting poor fruit yeild , up to nature on the big scale , acheivable  with pots or tarpolan

NEED TO CONSIDER
fertilizer & weed killer are the SAME product used in different concentrations they kill by over fertilisation !  you can dilute the poisons & use as fertiliser ,  so too much rain or watering turns your surface / granular fertilizer into poison .

all lychee stock are clones & will only grow only aswell as the parent tree & will have all the sam genetic faults , select stock from local trees & select from healthy fast growing trees . Be warned most growers keep the best  stock for themselves & only sell the 2nds

you need male & female tree's for fruit they may be the same sex  or all from the same tree ,.  if buying from the same place leave 3 months between puchases they have to be re-potted , so gaurenteed different parent plant , or get grower to mark which tree they came from , they will understand why & be happy to do it

the root base will only grow to the size of the shaded area under the tree this is why mulching around small tree's works until canopy develops , if you leave it 2 years before pruning it will produce more fruit on the 3rd year than the 3 years combined & have larger root base

on larger tree's the same results ( more growth / more fruit ) can be acheived without fertiliser & with better long term results by thrashing tree's with 1 inch link chain  !

Hope this helps”

[simon_grow]

Lycheelust, I don’t completely agree with what you posted from that Facebook member. Although some of the information is relevant, some of it is absolutely incorrect. The statement that weed killer is the same as fertilizer is very misleading.

The grower was probably trying to say that over fertilization of Lychee trees will give you a similar outcome as if you used weed killer. I myself have killed several lychee trees trying to push their growth with fertilizers.

You also don’t need male and female trees for fruit. A single Lychee tree will produce male, female and hermaphrodite flowers. The inflorescence usually comes in cycles. The cycles consist of flowers that that are mostly male, mostly female, mostly hermaphrodite or mixed flowers.

By having different varieties of Lychees, there is a better chance of cross pollination which will increase yields. A single tree can produce fruit on its own.

In China, the practice is to put air layers on fruitful parts of trees. Certain parts of a tree may be more or less fruitful and farmers try to air layer sections of the tree that have proven fruitful. Some farmers believe that air layers placed on sections of the tree that produce a higher percentage of chicken tongue seeds will continue to produce a higher percentage of chicken tongue seeds.

Leo Manuel had a pretty famous Brewster Lychee that produced bumper crops of some of the best tasting,  super sweet and super intense rose/lychee scent that you could imagine. I absolutely hated Brewster Lychees before I sampled fruit from his tree because the majority of Brewster fruit had huge seeds and only a scant amount of flesh.

From a regular Brewster tree, you will find approximately 5-10% of the fruit to have chicken tongues seeds. The tree that Leo had produced fruit with approximately 80-90% chicken tongue seeds. Many people from the CRFG and this forum have sampled fruit from his tree and everyone was amazed at the production and quality of fruit from his unique tree. Unfortunately his large tree died about 5-6 years ago but not before I removed several air layers from it.

I distributed the air layers to several members of this forum and hope they are still doing well.

Simon

[850FL]

What did Leo’s tree die from?
I assume like you were saying his famous Brewster tree was an air layer off another Brewster from a part of that tree which produced a lot of good chicken tongues??
Can this phenomenon be replicated with other fruit trees, or does it all depend on the species?

[simon_grow]

What did Leo’s tree die from?
I assume like you were saying his famous Brewster tree was an air layer off another Brewster from a part of that tree which produced a lot of good chicken tongues??
Can this phenomenon be replicated with other fruit trees, or does it all depend on the species?

I never sent out samples to the lab so I don’t know exactly what it was that killed the tree but the disease affected the vascular tissue. It causes the leaves to dry up and stay on the tree. Leo also has this same disease kill his large Sweetheart Lychee tree. I also lost one of my Sweetheart trees to this disease but I was also able to save one of my Sweetheart lychee trees by catching the disease early and immediately treating the tree via foliar feeding with a systemic fungicide called Abound.

Simon

[fruitlovers]

Here’s some info I found from a lychee grower:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1918599125074126/permalink/2188331551434214/

Copied from Facebook post:
“ Fertilizing Lychee explained .

1.  avoid using in ground or on ground fertilizers ( especialy graular ) as the release is governed by water amounts not fertilizer amount ( too much will hurt it , too little poor results )

2. Lychee prefer to absorb their fertiliser through leafs rather than roots

3. use liquid fertilizers desighned for leaf absorbsion they love the stuff & you will see results in days . ( also exess rain will reduce amounts of fertilizer not increase so no root burn )

4. mulch is only good to insulate the soil , the results you get are from reduced hydro / temerature shock not nutrients delivered

5. test your water needs to PH neutral ( same as rain water )

6. fertilizing after fruit formation is done to help set fruit , the flip side is if you over water the fruit will split on the tree .

PS .. if you are growing in pots feel your pot during the day if hot wrap in tin foil

use bigger pots , lychee roots grow down across the botton then up the sides before filling middle of pot ( compared to growing out evenly from middle ) it will give you stronger roots .

during flowering do not water over leaves or let rain fall on flowers the nitrogen will burn the flowers resulting poor fruit yeild , up to nature on the big scale , acheivable  with pots or tarpolan

NEED TO CONSIDER
fertilizer & weed killer are the SAME product used in different concentrations they kill by over fertilisation !  you can dilute the poisons & use as fertiliser ,  so too much rain or watering turns your surface / granular fertilizer into poison .

all lychee stock are clones & will only grow only aswell as the parent tree & will have all the sam genetic faults , select stock from local trees & select from healthy fast growing trees . Be warned most growers keep the best  stock for themselves & only sell the 2nds

you need male & female tree's for fruit they may be the same sex  or all from the same tree ,.  if buying from the same place leave 3 months between puchases they have to be re-potted , so gaurenteed different parent plant , or get grower to mark which tree they came from , they will understand why & be happy to do it

the root base will only grow to the size of the shaded area under the tree this is why mulching around small tree's works until canopy develops , if you leave it 2 years before pruning it will produce more fruit on the 3rd year than the 3 years combined & have larger root base

on larger tree's the same results ( more growth / more fruit ) can be acheived without fertiliser & with better long term results by thrashing tree's with 1 inch link chain  !

Hope this helps”

I don't know who this FB poster is, but as Simon pointed out, a lot of his information is either misleading or completely incorrect.

[LycheeLust]

Lycheelust, I don’t completely agree with what you posted from that Facebook member. Although some of the information is relevant, some of it is absolutely incorrect. The statement that weed killer is the same as fertilizer is very misleading.

The grower was probably trying to say that over fertilization of Lychee trees will give you a similar outcome as if you used weed killer. I myself have killed several lychee trees trying to push their growth with fertilizers.

You also don’t need male and female trees for fruit. A single Lychee tree will produce male, female and hermaphrodite flowers. The inflorescence usually comes in cycles. The cycles consist of flowers that that are mostly male, mostly female, mostly hermaphrodite or mixed flowers.

By having different varieties of Lychees, there is a better chance of cross pollination which will increase yields. A single tree can produce fruit on its own.

In China, the practice is to put air layers on fruitful parts of trees. Certain parts of a tree may be more or less fruitful and farmers try to air layer sections of the tree that have proven fruitful. Some farmers believe that air layers placed on sections of the tree that produce a higher percentage of chicken tongue seeds will continue to produce a higher percentage of chicken tongue seeds.

Leo Manuel had a pretty famous Brewster Lychee that produced bumper crops of some of the best tasting,  super sweet and super intense rose/lychee scent that you could imagine. I absolutely hated Brewster Lychees before I sampled fruit from his tree because the majority of Brewster fruit had huge seeds and only a scant amount of flesh.

From a regular Brewster tree, you will find approximately 5-10% of the fruit to have chicken tongues seeds. The tree that Leo had produced fruit with approximately 80-90% chicken tongue seeds. Many people from the CRFG and this forum have sampled fruit from his tree and everyone was amazed at the production and quality of fruit from his unique tree. Unfortunately his large tree died about 5-6 years ago but not before I removed several air layers from it.

I distributed the air layers to several members of this forum and hope they are still doing well.

Simon

Yeah I get that. I think the foliar feeding, mulching, restricting fertilizer, and the thrashing to stress induce fruiting could be useful? I’ve seen people use dwarfing tools on branches to induce fruiting.  Also I didn’t know that’s how they could improve a variety via air layering. Will you be releasing any more air layers? If so, Could I reserve one? 😃

[Frog Valley Farm]

No news here

[simon_grow]

Frog valley Farm, you are correct, this thread is about organic lychee management. I was simply explaining how I was able to save my tree and I’m not trying to push Abound. I’m not an industrial grower, just a small backyard grower.

Simon

[850FL]

What did Leo’s tree die from?
I assume like you were saying his famous Brewster tree was an air layer off another Brewster from a part of that tree which produced a lot of good chicken tongues??
Can this phenomenon be replicated with other fruit trees, or does it all depend on the species?

I never sent out samples to the lab so I don’t know exactly what it was that killed the tree but the disease affected the vascular tissue. It causes the leaves to dry up and stay on the tree. Leo also has this same disease kill his large Sweetheart Lychee tree. I also lost one of my Sweetheart trees to this disease but I was also able to save one of my Sweetheart lychee trees by catching the disease early and immediately treating the tree via foliar feeding with a systemic fungicide called Abound.

Simon

Isn’t this a Organic thread?  I do not know why you industrial growers/polluters are giving any advice about organic growing or management.  Yes if you use chemicals and pollutants on your trees your trees will be more susceptible to disease, which is why you start pest and disease threads to post on. And please do not give me the crap response “I grew organic for so many years, it didn’t work”, yeah, because you didn’t know how to do it then, and you still don’t!

As an organic grower and consumer, Abound, is a horrible thing to use, especially since your audience mostly have small yards and a large percent of the neighbors are trying to be organic.  I don’t care how careful you think you are with it, just by the fact you choose to use it on food you eat, shows you are not.  Maybe this pollutant should be pushed on a Lychee Pests and disease problems thread not about organic growing.  Pollutants cause disease in plants and humans, science has proven this and the worst pollutants are the fungicides

Growing Lychees organically in Florida is easy.  If you are in a warmer area maybe it’s not the best tree to grow.  At least lychees are cheap when in season. 

Together we can boost intelligence with clean nutrient dense food.

I do agree with your principals, organic and all. I use Spinosad and neem oil whenever I can, and use only mulch and muck stews when possible, but sometimes that just doesn’t cut it. I do have to fertilize a bit with synthetic fertilizers when I see new growth getting chlorotic on some trees, which most of the minerals in those products (apart from N) are rock derived anyway right?
And dude you really think that growing organic can fully prevent destructive diseases and viruses like citrus HLB and fire blight?

[Frog Valley Farm]

No news here

[cbss_daviefl]

I understand that you follow some of the strictest guidelines but are you saying USDA Organic products do not use copper? There are plenty of copper products approved for use under National Organic Program (NOP) standards. Are there NOP approved products that cannot be used on crops that are certified USDA Organic?

Page 81 of the OMRI guide has a full page of copper fungicides listed that meet NOP standards.

https://www.omri.org/sites/default/files/opl_pdf/CropByCategory-NOP.pdf

If your using copper not organic, other fungicides, check. 

[Frog Valley Farm]

No news here.

[fruitlovers]

The organic certifying agencies have always made some exceptions when good organic alternatives are not available, or not easily available, such as with copper fungicides, and with some chelated trace elements. But this doesn't mean any farmer has to use them, only that they're given the option of doing so. And as already has been pointed out, this option is often limited as to time and strength of application.

[850FL]

Extensive monoculture of virtually all crops has caused many of these diseases to proliferate without check in my humble opinion, forcing many of us growers to have to use more and more extreme pesticide protocols. Why can’t ppl be happy with a mixed bag of random orange varieties and not just a bag of Valencia or navels for instance
That and foreign disease introduction

[Mike T]

Brewster is not really chen zsi like people think but it a poor bearing cold lover 'water lychee'. Maybe it bears better in cooler areas. Do you ever get mins below 45f or even down to 40f for a few hours each winter? Mulch is a reflection of the plants derived from and thus the soil that they grew in. Micronutrient deficiencies are common.

[850FL]

You say Brewster is a cold lover. I realize most lychees can get into the 20s (F). How cold can a Brewster get  without being burnt to the ground?
Because I recently bought 5 Brewster trees on clearance, and my area routinely has 9b and 9a winters,  but occasionally even slightly colder drops than just 9a (once or twice a decade a brief drop to 19 F).. so.. do you think these will survive in the right microclimate? And should I plant them near the bank of the stream or on higher elevation  where the sand is drier (both areas have partial oak canopy)?

[Mike T]

Chill factor is certainly not an issue and excess N and water prior to flowering would not help. Getting enough P, K, Mg, Ca and Zn is worth thinking about and actually being too cold might be an issue. I could only guess on minimum temp tolerance but Brewster is a bit like wai chee in being at the cooler end of the spectrum as apposed to say Mauritius or Kwai mai pink (Bos 3) which are heat lovers.

[Galatians522]

Kiamana has not had a noticeably lower chill requirement in my experience. At least not what we have by that name in Florida. Its quality, though is excellent.

Dang Rob dont take your toys and leave.  Hawaii has low chill type I me tioned before like kaimana.
[/quote]

[Galatians522]

You say Brewster is a cold lover. I realize most lychees can get into the 20s (F). How cold can a Brewster get  without being burnt to the ground?
Because I recently bought 5 Brewster trees on clearance, and my area routinely has 9b and 9a winters,  but occasionally even slightly colder drops than just 9a (once or twice a decade a brief drop to 19 F).. so.. do you think these will survive in the right microclimate? And should I plant them near the bank of the stream or on higher elevation  where the sand is drier (both areas have partial oak canopy)?

A lot of that depends on the size of the tree, how long the cold lasts, and the conditions leading up to the freeze. The larger and more dormant the tree the more it can take. 32 can kill a 3gal size tree, but typically won't even burn a leaf on a 20' monster. When we had 19 here in Sebring I am told that mature Brewster trees were frozen back to the main scaffold limbs and trunk.

[fruitlovers]

Kiamana has not had a noticeably lower chill requirement in my experience. At least not what we have by that name in Florida. Its quality, though is excellent.

Dang Rob dont take your toys and leave.  Hawaii has low chill type I me tioned before like kaimana.

[/quote]
Kaimana fruits here with zero chill. So either you don't have the real deal or your observations are off.