Starfruit. deficiency?

[recifecbba]

I would appreciate any info on possible deficiencies. Hart Carambola Grown in  Royal palm beach. fertilized very lightly (maybe thats the problem) with Excalibur fruitilizer and alot of mulch. the fruit are delicious but not as numerous as my srikembangan and the leaves are showing this discoloration.

[Cookie Monster]

Hit it with some pelletiized sulfur, perhaps 10 pounds worth, to acidify the soil. Make sure to give it consistent application of a good minors mix. I'm not sure what minors the 8-3-9 has.

I think the leaves are showing manganese deficiency.

[bsbullie]

Hart is super productive here.  Funny, I have never seen a SK be a heavy producer.

Not sure how large the tree is and what you mean by "very lightly feetilized" but sine the 8-3-9 is a 30 day fertilizer,  it is probably not getting enough nutrition.  It has a pretty good minor package but if only sporadically applying, its probably got some deficiencies.

[shot]

one unit of ph movement with sulfur a season per soil  makeup or can burn plant  and harm soil life! looks like lack of mg. but id use a good micro foliar spray, also they get winter induced  deficiency soil temps below 70 which will reverse when temps go up in spring, hard to correct in winter

[pineislander]

So, one vote for manganese Mn and one for magnesium Mg?
Why do you come up with different conclusions, what are you looking for?
I see the symptoms on older leaves but not so much on younger leaves, right?
magnesium deficiency:

Therefore, without sufficient amounts of magnesium, plants begin to degrade the chlorophyll in the old leaves. This causes the main symptom of magnesium deficiency, chlorosis, or yellowing between leaf veins, which stay green, giving the leaves a marbled appearance.

manganese deficiency:

Manganese deficiency can be easy to spot in plants because, much like magnesium deficiency, the leaves start to turn yellow and undergo interveinal chlorosis. The difference between these two is that the younger leaves near the top of the plant show symptoms first because manganese is not mobile while in magnesium deficiency show symptoms in older leaves near the bottom of the plant.[1]

This paper describes symptoms of Carambola nutrient deficiencies.

http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1995-vol-108/370-373%20(THOMAS).pdf

It also lists normal elemental leaf levels of this fruit. I'm wondering if anyone here has experience with labs which do leaf analysis. Is it worthwhile at all? How much does it cost?

I'm sure if you had dozens hundreds or thousands of trees it would be worth $10, 25, maybe even $100 to know what you need and even track this over time to foresee problems before they reduce production.

Does anyone here know about the subject?

[Cookie Monster]

FYI -- I did an experiment where I laid down sulfur at the rate of 4 tons per acre, dropped the pH by 4 units, and the 30+ trees in that soil were fine. Only lost a couple of annona.

My carambola went from horribly chlorotic and unproductive to beautiful green, vigorous, and insanely productive after dropping the pH from 7.5 to 5.x with sulfur. Earthworms were unaffected.

one unit of ph movement with sulfur a season per soil  makeup or can burn plant  and harm soil life! looks like lack of mg. but id use a good micro foliar spray, also they get winter induced  deficiency soil temps below 70 which will reverse when temps go up in spring, hard to correct in winter

[Cookie Monster]

I don't have a good eye for deficiencies, but I think it's really a combo of Mg, Mn, and Fe deficiency. Some of the leaves in the background are white. The best guy for eyeing deficiencies here is Guanabanus (Har).

That said, simply hitting it with a high quality fertilizer on a regular basis and ensuring the pH is OK will take care of your issues.

So, one vote for manganese Mn and one for magnesium Mg?
Why do you come up with different conclusions, what are you looking for?
I see the symptoms on older leaves but not so much on younger leaves, right?
magnesium deficiency:

Therefore, without sufficient amounts of magnesium, plants begin to degrade the chlorophyll in the old leaves. This causes the main symptom of magnesium deficiency, chlorosis, or yellowing between leaf veins, which stay green, giving the leaves a marbled appearance.

manganese deficiency:

Manganese deficiency can be easy to spot in plants because, much like magnesium deficiency, the leaves start to turn yellow and undergo interveinal chlorosis. The difference between these two is that the younger leaves near the top of the plant show symptoms first because manganese is not mobile while in magnesium deficiency show symptoms in older leaves near the bottom of the plant.[1]

This paper describes symptoms of Carambola nutrient deficiencies.

http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1995-vol-108/370-373%20(THOMAS).pdf

It also lists normal elemental leaf levels of this fruit. I'm wondering if anyone here has experience with labs which do leaf analysis. Is it worthwhile at all? How much does it cost?

I'm sure if you had dozens hundreds or thousands of trees it would be worth $10, 25, maybe even $100 to know what you need and even track this over time to foresee problems before they reduce production.

Does anyone here know about the subject?

[pineislander]

Hello, Shot. Please check your personal messages, I've just sent you one.

[shot]

competing elements eg alot of free soil calcium, but if not receiving foliar multi elements most time multiple problems not to mention secondary root pathogens soil temp or moisture  ,but starfruit trees are tough  i wouldn't even worry about this tree soil cation capacity influences rate of app. of sulfur, soil life is more than worms

[Cookie Monster]

Excess calcium carbonate readily converted to gypsum with sulfur. I have the only green carambola for miles, all thanks to sulfur :-). My tree looked 10x worse than OPs.

Given the location of poster, I assume a sandy soil with some excess ca carbonate and a CEC in the ~10 range.

Sulfur is ineffective in soils with ca carbonate above a percent or two (eg, dade county marl). There, foliar nutrition is the only way to go. Deep south florida sand, on the other hand, is pretty easy to work with.

competing elements eg alot of free soil calcium, but if not receiving foliar multi elements most time multiple problems not to mention secondary root pathogens soil temp or moisture  ,but starfruit trees are tough  i wouldn't even worry about this tree soil cation capacity influences rate of app. of sulfur, soil life is more than worms

[greenman62]

FYI -- I did an experiment where I laid down sulfur at the rate of 4 tons per acre, dropped the pH by 4 units, and the 30+ trees in that soil were fine. Only lost a couple of annona.

My carambola went from horribly chlorotic and unproductive to beautiful green, vigorous, and insanely productive after dropping the pH from 7.5 to 5.x with sulfur. Earthworms were unaffected.

one unit of ph movement with sulfur a season per soil  makeup or can burn plant  and harm soil life! looks like lack of mg. but id use a good micro foliar spray, also they get winter induced  deficiency soil temps below 70 which will reverse when temps go up in spring, hard to correct in winter

how would one go about targeting a few plants with sulfur ?

My carambola has always looked sick.
i have lots of papaya, guava. mango, citrus, and a dozen others
the one that always looks deficient is the starfruit.

its been in the ground for about 2 years now
ive added a ton of leaves, grass clippings, pine bark mulch, yard waste...
it doesnt seem to help.
the plant  does give me nice fruit, but, im sure it would be more productive
if the leaves were nice and green. it hasnt grown very much either.
i did give it 2 very light iron treatments which havent seemed to help much.

the soil is river sand mostly (Mississippi river) which is fine and has some silt to it.
PH is normally just above 7 i think.
the tree is next to a pond where i had yucca growing years ago.
i was hoping it would find some old roots to grab nutrients from.
i do not like chemicals, so i use fish emulsion and worm castings on everything.
i have an emergency backup of some organic fertilizer in a bag,
it has micronutes in it also , i tried once with no luck.

 i would think it should get what it needs from fish emulsion and worm castings.

i am now thinking it must be PH ?

[Cookie Monster]

Carambola are averse to: a) alkaline soil and b) prevailing wind. They also dislike dry soil. Depending on the composition of your soil, sulfur can drop the pH of the soil to a depth of a few inches (which is where the feeder roots reside) and can green up the tree.

You will probably want to start using fertilizers -- conventional or otherwise. After using over 1,000 cubic yards of mulch over the span of a decade, I've come to the conclusion that compost / mulch is not a suitable means of fertilizing fruit trees. Mulch / compost / manure provides nutrition in a ratio which is not ideal for plants -- P and K tend to be high and Ca low (among other issues). So, you end up with problems such as low brix and soft fruit. Further, compost locks up some nutrients and makes then less available to your tree -- copper being a notable example.

That said, compost is an excellent base for microbial / beneficial life, it chelates some micronutrients, and it acts as a reservoir for both water and nutrients. So, an ideal situation is a best of both worlds approach where both fertilizer and compost are used. To achieve high production on your fruit trees, you really need to give adequate doses of fertilizer, unless your soil is already sufficient (unlikely). Mulch / clippings / etc won't provide enough of the right nutrients in the right ratios.

There is really nothing inherently bad about "chemical" fertilizers. NOP-approved inputs (ie, used in production of certified organic produce) are "chemicals"; they are simply obtained via methods that USDA deems to be "organic." So, the designation of organic or not has more to do with how the product was obtained than what it is. Below is an excerpt that sums this up pretty well:

Because organic standards are based in part on the cycling of natural nutrients, a number of similar or even chemically identical products can be allowed or prohibited based on their origin or manufacturing. For example, not all sources of lime are permitted. Mined limestone (calcium carbonate) and dolomite (magnesium carbonate) are allowed. However, quicklime (calcium oxide), burnt dolomite (magnesium oxide), slaked lime (calcium hydroxide), and milk of magnesia (magnesium hydroxide) are not. Mined gypsum is permitted; calcium sulfate that is a by-product of superphosphate manufacture or from reclaimed drywall is not. Natural potassium sulfate from lake brine or recovered from mined sources are allowed, but potassium sulfate from entirely synthetic sources are prohibited.

(https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs144p2_045863.pdf)

how would one go about targeting a few plants with sulfur ?

My carambola has always looked sick.
i have lots of papaya, guava. mango, citrus, and a dozen others
the one that always looks deficient is the starfruit.

its been in the ground for about 2 years now
ive added a ton of leaves, grass clippings, pine bark mulch, yard waste...
it doesnt seem to help.
the plant  does give me nice fruit, but, im sure it would be more productive
if the leaves were nice and green. it hasnt grown very much either.
i did give it 2 very light iron treatments which havent seemed to help much.

the soil is river sand mostly (Mississippi river) which is fine and has some silt to it.
PH is normally just above 7 i think.
the tree is next to a pond where i had yucca growing years ago.
i was hoping it would find some old roots to grab nutrients from.
i do not like chemicals, so i use fish emulsion and worm castings on everything.
i have an emergency backup of some organic fertilizer in a bag,
it has micronutes in it also , i tried once with no luck.

 i would think it should get what it needs from fish emulsion and worm castings.

i am now thinking it must be PH ?

[greenman62]

thanks Jeff,
As far as the PH goes
what would i need to do, just add sulfur ?
how much, and can i just scratch it into the mulch layer ?
(will the rain wash it in ?)

[zands]

thanks Jeff,
As far as the PH goes
what would i need to do, just add sulfur ?
how much, and can i just scratch it into the mulch layer ?
(will the rain wash it in ?)

You might have gotten stuck with a weak specimen that is beyond cure. Get a fresh Kari or Bell carmabola. Your soil is good ph. Its the high ph soils found in many South Florida developments that sucks/is high ph. My own high ph soil ruined lots of citrus I planted but carambola are OK so far/ one planted under a 33 year old pine tree that I then cut down. Pine tree needles and debris acidifying the soil for 33 years.

[Cookie Monster]

Carambola are as bad as (or worse than?) citrus in terms of high pH intolerance. However, unlike citrus, they will normally survive and produce OK despite having chlorotic leaves and a stunted growth habit. And regular fertilization helps. There is also some variation in high pH tolerance from one cultivar to the next. Notably, Golden Star performs better than most other cultivars in high pH conditions and is often used as rootstock.

But if you can address the pH issue, it goes a long way in terms of greening up the tree, regardless of the rootstock. I would spread sulfur as you would fertilizer -- somewhere around 500 to 750 pounds per acre. Your goal would be to reduce the pH to something in the 5's or 6's.

There is nothing "bad" about sulfur. It simply forms sulfuric acid which then combines with calcium carbonate to form gypsum and carbon dioxide. Farmers have been using it for probably hundreds of years. It's true that soil life decreases a bit at lower pH levels, but that is a "problem" that any acidic soil on the planet has, as soil life prefers a pH closer to neutral.

The reduction in pH does take some time. It can take a year or more for the sulfur to fully react. And, I don't think it will work on high pH due to salts nor will it work if your soil has more than a percent or two of ca carbonate. Seeing as how I'm not familiar with your particular soil, I don't know how effective it will be for you.

Tiger 90 makes an OMRI listed (organic) pelletized sulfur product if you want to go that route. 7springs has a 10 pound bag for 10 bucks => http://www.7springsfarm.com/elemental-sulfur-90-by-tiger-organics-10-lb/

[pineislander]

Here's an informative discussion on sulphur and its use:
http://www.plantanswers.com/garden_column/march04/1.htm

I asked before, and no one responded about leaf analysis. This should hone in on such a nutrient deficiency as shown. A soil test might be a good idea and show ahead of time what sort of soil deficiency or absorption limitations to expect before it happens.

[Cookie Monster]

Take those articles with a grain of salt. Here's my experience:

On my southern lot, I trucked in 250 cubic yards of soil from palm beach county -- a loamy sand with a ph between 7.5 and 7.7 and lots of shells / pieces of limestone. Calcium was 2,000 ppm (about .2%) and CEC was 8.3. I applied sulfur at the rate of 8,000 pounds per acre (WAYYY above the recommended dose of about 400 pounds per acre) -- with over 30 fruit trees planted out. pH dropped four full points and I saw no detriment to the plants (ie, no salt burn). Two annonas (out of 36 trees and about dozen species) died. I believe annonas are sensitive to sulfur. It's been 2 years now, and the soil pH is still in the 3's and 4's.

On my northern lot, which is horrible broward soil (worse than palm beach soil) -- CEC around 15 and on top of limestone rubble with about 1/2 % calcium -- I applied sulfur at a more normal rate but still well on the high side (about 1,000 pounds per acre). The soil there now has a pH between 5.5 and 6.5. Again, the only tree out of about 40 that showed any detriment was an annona.

Overall, the level of visible chlorosis declined dramatically on both lots. Sulfur has been a silver bullet for me.

And if my study isn't enough, here's one conducted by agvise labs. They applied sulfur at the rate of 10,000 pounds per acre and saw no detriment to the alfalfa crop. pH dropped by about 1/2 point. Ca carbonate percent was 1.5%. The effect was not permanent, but the only soil I know of with that much Ca carbonate in this area is miami dade marl. http://www.agvise.com/educational-articles/high-soil-ph-can-we-fix-this-problem/

Here's an informative discussion on sulphur and its use:
http://www.plantanswers.com/garden_column/march04/1.htm

I asked before, and no one responded about leaf analysis. This should hone in on such a nutrient deficiency as shown. A soil test might be a good idea and show ahead of time what sort of soil deficiency or absorption limitations to expect before it happens.

[pineislander]

Cookie, would you recommend sulfur on my Myakka fine sand soil?
https://soilseries.sc.egov.usda.gov/OSD_Docs/M/MYAKKA.html

[Cookie Monster]

One thing I've learned is that those soil surveys are largely inaccurate when referring to soil in urban areas. Also, even if your soil is intact (ie, your home is old enough that the builder used existing soil), you'll still find that the soil properties don't match that of the soil surveys due to contamination issues. For example, most muck now has a pH above 7 due to mechanical soil mixing with lower layers and irrigation with ca laden water.

I would recommend getting a pH meter and checking your soil pH. Don't use pH strips and don't use bi-metal sensors. Both are Extremely inaccurate. For one, the bi-metal sensors confuse salts with acidity (baking soda tests as acid!), and the pH strips are about as good an idea as measuring sand particle size with a yardstick. I use the Oakton EcoTestr ph 2, which has been very accurate. There are similar units, all priced under $50.

If you have pH above 7, use some sulfur. You can go light at first. My one caution would be to go really light around the annonas. They seem to be sensitive to sulfur. Nothing else really seems to care. But, you should be able to reduce your pH pretty easily. That soil survey doesn't even reference ca carbonate, so any pH issues would probably be related to layer mixing and / or irrigation and should be easy to correct.

The rule of thumb on sulfur vs ca carbonate is 1 pound of sulfur removes something like 3 pounds of ca carbonate. Sulfur being bout 30 cents per pound, you can almost consider it costing 10 cents per pound to remove ca carbonate :-). In my case, I used so much of it that it turned the little pieces of buried concrete (soil was obviously taken from a previous building tear down) turned to white goop.

Cookie, would you recommend sulfur on my Myakka fine sand soil?
https://soilseries.sc.egov.usda.gov/OSD_Docs/M/MYAKKA.html

[Cookie Monster]

PS -- you don't need to till the sulfur in. Just chuck it on the ground either by hand or with a fertilizer spreader.