Author Topic: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)  (Read 7555 times)

KarenRei

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Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« on: September 12, 2013, 05:17:35 AM »
I once grew cacao and I'm looking to grow it again.  However I've been doing research and there's a particular variety I found interesting - the rarer "criollo" variety.  This is the variety cultivated by the early mesoamericans and which produces a reddish chocolate.

Criollo was initially the main produced variety, but unknown pests and diseases started affecting the plantations in the 1700s and they switched to the hardier Forastero/Calabicillo variety (spp. spherocarpum) from the northern Amazon, in particular the cultivar Amelonado.  As I grow indoors in Iceland, assuming clean seeds, whatever pests and diseases are found in their natural growing areas should not affect me here.

Does anyone know of a supplier for these seeds?  For those who've tasted it, what do you think of the flavor?  I generally see it described as richer and more complex.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 06:13:05 AM by KarenRei »
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EvilFruit

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Moh'd

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2013, 06:28:55 AM »
Karen, i just yesterday posted a photo of my first criollo pod. Did you see it? Here it is:
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=5722.msg94045#msg94045
Oscar

KarenRei

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2013, 06:57:52 AM »
No, I missed that thread - thanks!  :)  Definitely let us know how it compares to Forastero.   

And thanks for the link, EvilFruit!  Looks like I've got a new seed order to make, haha  ;)  Any experience with that seller?
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fruitlovers

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2013, 07:07:36 AM »
Not sure what you mean by the taste Karen? Do you mean the seed or the pulp? The chocolate made from criollo seeds is well known to be superior and sells for much higher prices. Not sure about the pulp as most folks aren't much interested in that, except for me.  ;) Criollo seeds are also different in that they are white inside instead of purple, like forastero and trinitario.
Oscar

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 09:26:52 AM »
Karen

Bryan Brunner has small plants of the Criollo variety for sale so I'm guessing that he should have the seeds/pods.

Richard

EvilFruit

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 10:37:02 AM »
No, I missed that thread - thanks!  :)  Definitely let us know how it compares to Forastero.   

And thanks for the link, EvilFruit!  Looks like I've got a new seed order to make, haha  ;)  Any experience with that seller?

 ;)

I bought eugenia uniflora , eugenia brasiliensis and Diospyros digyna seeds from them. The germination rate was nearly 100% for e.uniflora and e.brasiliensis but Diospyros digyna was a total failure (0%  :'(). Maybe it was my mistake by over watering... I really don't know.

Anyway, I think it is better to buy the whole pod instead of seeds .The seedpod should help to protect the seeds from fungus (correct me if I'm wrong).

Moh'd

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 11:35:15 AM »
The cacao sold/grown around here is supposed to be criollo, the white pulp surrounding the seeds has a sweet sour taste, very good, afaik the seeds with white inside are from a improved Venezuelan criollo x forastero hybrid, criollo seeds are light brown inside, when rightly fermented the smell is very rich and fruity.

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KarenRei

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 01:02:30 PM »
I'll give that site a shot and get a couple other things as well (though dang is it expensive to airmail a cacao pod!)

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 06:34:12 PM »
No, I missed that thread - thanks!  :)  Definitely let us know how it compares to Forastero.   

And thanks for the link, EvilFruit!  Looks like I've got a new seed order to make, haha  ;)  Any experience with that seller?

 ;)

I bought eugenia uniflora , eugenia brasiliensis and Diospyros digyna seeds from them. The germination rate was nearly 100% for e.uniflora and e.brasiliensis but Diospyros digyna was a total failure (0%  :'(). Maybe it was my mistake by over watering... I really don't know.

Anyway, I think it is better to buy the whole pod instead of seeds .The seedpod should help to protect the seeds from fungus (correct me if I'm wrong).

OK, you're wrong.  ;) They can certainly get fungus and mold inside the pod also. I see it all the time. Also you have to pay for mailing of heavy pod, which is just waste. Not a good idea unless you want to eat the fruit and see what the pod looks like.
Oscar

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 07:37:55 PM »
Oscar,
If you can spare a seed I would like to see what the seed of that interesting criollo pod looks like.  It would be nice to see a photo of a lengthwise cut to see what the  color of the seed is. 
Thanks, Peter

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2013, 10:03:13 PM »
Oscar,
If you can spare a seed I would like to see what the seed of that interesting criollo pod looks like.  It would be nice to see a photo of a lengthwise cut to see what the  color of the seed is. 
Thanks, Peter

OK, but i think there are already photos of cross sectioned criollo seeds somewhere online.
Oscar

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 06:40:00 AM »
Yeah, but the thing with cacao is that there is so much variety and your pod looks a bit different to me than what I have seen as criollo on line before.  I actually have never seen, in person, actual criollo so I am interested in yours.
Thanks, Peter

KarenRei

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2013, 09:41:02 PM »
Got my criollo pod today.  :)  Too late for eating but the seeds seem quite healthy!  :)




I was surprised by the diversity of seed colors.  Is this normal for criollo?
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plantlover13

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2013, 09:49:09 PM »
Got my criollo pod today.  :)  Too late for eating but the seeds seem quite healthy!  :)




I was surprised by the diversity of seed colors.  Is this normal for criollo?

Where did you get the pod?

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2013, 11:32:07 PM »
Those different colored seeds came from inside that one pod? Criollo seeds are white on inside when sliced in 1/2. Other types are purple inside.
Oscar

KarenRei

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2013, 04:48:59 AM »
All those came from one pod - the full spectrum from white to dark purple.  I sliced it open, took the seeds out, and cleaned them myself.  I'd prefer to not have to destroy any of my seeds as a test.  But if any mold or fail to germinate, I can cut them then.

Note that the pod was overripe, to the point of beginning to mold, so perhaps that had an effect.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 04:59:27 AM by KarenRei »
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KarenRei

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2013, 04:49:48 AM »
Where did you get the pod?

Fleur des Tropiques, above.
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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2013, 05:46:23 AM »
All those came from one pod - the full spectrum from white to dark purple.  I sliced it open, took the seeds out, and cleaned them myself.  I'd prefer to not have to destroy any of my seeds as a test.  But if any mold or fail to germinate, I can cut them then.

Note that the pod was overripe, to the point of beginning to mold, so perhaps that had an effect.
Mold on the pod doesn't change the color of the seeds. What it does is to make mold start to grow on the seeds. Purple exterior is normal color of seeds.
Oscar

KarenRei

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2013, 06:35:55 AM »
All those came from one pod - the full spectrum from white to dark purple.  I sliced it open, took the seeds out, and cleaned them myself.  I'd prefer to not have to destroy any of my seeds as a test.  But if any mold or fail to germinate, I can cut them then.

Note that the pod was overripe, to the point of beginning to mold, so perhaps that had an effect.
Mold on the pod doesn't change the color of the seeds. What it does is to make mold start to grow on the seeds. Purple exterior is normal color of seeds.

The mold was also on the fleshy white rind of the seeds.

I thought you just said white is the normal color of criollo seeds?  And my pods' seeds are multicolored.
 
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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2013, 06:45:50 AM »
All those came from one pod - the full spectrum from white to dark purple.  I sliced it open, took the seeds out, and cleaned them myself.  I'd prefer to not have to destroy any of my seeds as a test.  But if any mold or fail to germinate, I can cut them then.

Note that the pod was overripe, to the point of beginning to mold, so perhaps that had an effect.
Mold on the pod doesn't change the color of the seeds. What it does is to make mold start to grow on the seeds. Purple exterior is normal color of seeds.

The mold was also on the fleshy white rind of the seeds.

I thought you just said white is the normal color of criollo seeds?  And my pods' seeds are multicolored.

What i said above: Criollo seeds are white on inside when sliced in 1/2.
Oscar

KarenRei

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2013, 09:55:47 AM »
All those came from one pod - the full spectrum from white to dark purple.  I sliced it open, took the seeds out, and cleaned them myself.  I'd prefer to not have to destroy any of my seeds as a test.  But if any mold or fail to germinate, I can cut them then.

Note that the pod was overripe, to the point of beginning to mold, so perhaps that had an effect.
Mold on the pod doesn't change the color of the seeds. What it does is to make mold start to grow on the seeds. Purple exterior is normal color of seeds.

The mold was also on the fleshy white rind of the seeds.

I thought you just said white is the normal color of criollo seeds?  And my pods' seeds are multicolored.

What i said above: Criollo seeds are white on inside when sliced in 1/2.

Ah.  Well I'll probably have at least one seed mold or fail to germinate, so I expect to have the chance to cut one open.  :)  But I have no reason to expect it's not criollo.  I just found the mix of (exterior) colors striking.
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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2013, 04:25:22 PM »
I've never seen a pod with mixed color seeds like that. Only thing i can think of is that it's some type of hybrid cross?
Oscar

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2013, 04:06:05 PM »
Keep us updated , Karen.  8)
Moh'd

KarenRei

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Re: Theobroma cacao ssp. cacao (aka, Criollo variety)
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2013, 07:13:14 PM »
Geez, that didn't take long.  Over half are already germinated.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 08:28:43 PM by KarenRei »
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