Double stone grafting for Mango

[simon_grow]

Thanks for your support Mike!

I just wanted to one last update for 2015. It has been raining on and off for the last several weeks and temps may reach freezing on Saturday. All the DSGed Mango trees at my house are starting to push new growth, not sure if it's vegetative or flowers s the growth is just starting to push.

DOT



Julie



Sweet Tart



Simon

[simon_grow]

I have also noticed that Double Stone Grafting changes the shape of the leaves on most varieties I have put on DSG. When put on DSG, the leaves are longer, narrow and more pointed. The leaves also have more of a wavy appearance similar to Lemon Zest leaves although the ripples are smaller.

Mango varieties put on Double Greenwood Graft(leaves past copper leaf stage) do not appear to display this difference in the morphology of the leaves. For example, take a look at my Julie on Double Greenwoid Graft, the leaves are still wide and not long. I'm not exactly sure what is causing this but I'm assuming it's due to hormones from the seed as the Double Stone Grafting technique utilizes seedlings in the copper leaf stage and these seedlings still draw energy from the stone(seed). The Double Greenwood graft utilizes seedlings in the green leaf stage and does not(perhaps minimally) draw energy from the stone. I repeat, Mango varieties grafted with Double Greenwood Graft does not display the elongated narrow leaves.

DOT grafted onto single rootstock multigrafted Turpentine(Florida rootstock) tree. I should also mention that this DOT graft has Lemon Zest as an inter stock. The leaves are about 5-6 inches long.


Here is DOT on DSG, the leaves are about double the length of the leaf above. Both these DOT grafts were grafted on the same day.


Simon

[simon_grow]

So my DSGed Nam Doc Mai is definitely flowering. I'm going to remove any fruit that hold for at least the first couple years.

I also visited my mother in laws house so I was able to check up on the DSGed Lemon Zest I planted for them. In the Winter, this tree does not get any direct sunlight but unlike in my yard, the soil over here is sandy and has excellent drainage. I've definitely noticed that Mango trees planted in heavy clay, like I have at my house, does not grow as rapidly as trees planted in well draining soil. Once this tree reaches about 5 feet, it will be able to escape the shadow of the house and nearby trees so it should fruit well once it reaches maturity.
NDM flowers



Lemon Zest planted at in laws house

[barath]

Simon, I've found something interesting with my DSG grafted mangos.  I did a big batch of mango grafts, both single and double rootstock, back at the end of summer.  The single rootstock grafts started pushing within a few weeks or so.  The double rootstock grafts didn't, but they didn't die either.  And I was just checking on some of them, and they are *now* pushing, something like 6 months later.  It's really strange...

[JF]

Simon, I've found something interesting with my DSG grafted mangos.  I did a big batch of mango grafts, both single and double rootstock, back at the end of summer.  The single rootstock grafts started pushing within a few weeks or so.  The double rootstock grafts didn't, but they didn't die either.  And I was just checking on some of them, and they are *now* pushing, something like 6 months later.  It's really strange...

Barath
That's normal. Now that we are heating up to 80's and 90 my October and November are pushing and some bloom. 

[simon_grow]

JF is right on. I have a couple DSG plants that were grafted on 9/16/15 that for some reason decided to remain dormant until recently. Thinking back, I recall that I got delayed pushes from scions that did not have swollen buds. I also got delayed pushes on DSGed trees that were grafted onto less vigorous rootstocks.

My DSGed trees on vigorous mono rootstocks pushed with the most vigor. DSGed trees on double Polyembryonic rootstocks pushed with the least vigor unless I left nurse leaves. Combinations with one Mono and one Poly seedling seemed intermediate.

Here is a Gary DSG that is just starting to push


A DSG that stalls and is left outside in frost condition will die. I've had a couple nights of frost already but my in ground DSGs that I planted last year have all survived the frost with damage only showing on newly emerged vegetative and floral growths. Hardened vegetative growth showed no signs of frost damage. Here is a pic of the frost on my truck last Tuesday morning.

Simon

[simon_grow]

Here is a fully stalled DSG. It is a Jumbo Kesar with no swollen buds. It was grafted on my "B" grade seedlings, seedlings that showed less vigor or the taproot was partially broken off. It was grafted in September of last year and has not pushed. If I bring it outside during warm weather, it will likely flush but I'm going to leave it in my garage under artificial light because I'm tired of moving my experiments in and out of the garage whenever we get frost.

You can stimulate growth of stalled scions by drenching with dilute fertilizer and bottom heat around 90+F.

I have a few DSGs that were stalled but pushed growth in December when I used this treatment. Bottom heat at this high temperature is costly however. DSGed Jumbo Kesar with delayed growth:

[barath]

Frank, I agree about the heat, though the single vs. double rootstock mangos were in the same environment (indoors) -- in this case the double rootstock grafts didn't push during the winter whereas the single rootstock grafts did.

Simon, that's very interesting on two counts!  I'm surprised to hear that you also see your double rootstock mangos take their time to push -- I do think at least one of mine are double polyembryonic, so that could be it.  (I'm honestly shocked that it survived for 6 months without dying -- I've never had an Avocado graft that hangs on for nearly that long without either pushing or dying.)

I'm also surprised you got frost as recently as a week ago.  We've been lucky here this winter and haven't had any frost.

[barath]

Simon, what sort of growth rates have you seen with a cultivar on double mono rootstock vs. that same cultivar on La Verne Manila rootstock?  I'm curious whether the DSGs that push slowly eventually overtake the ones on La Verne Manila rootstock, or whether you have to go up to triple or even higher levels to beat La Verne Manila as a rootstock here in California.

I ask because until this past week when I noticed this on my DSG mangos, I didn't realize that DSG can be much slower to push than single rootstock grafts -- I'm trying to decide whether it's worth continuing to do double grafts, or whether I should plan on triple or just to give up and go with La Verne.

[simon_grow]

Hey Barath,

Let me clarify things. In general, my DSGed trees are growing at about double the rate of single rootstock grafted trees. My DSGed trees are growing so well that I have given away most of my single grafted trees except those on Lavern Manilla rootstock. The very few DSGed trees that did not immediately push are probably only about 5-10% out of all my DSGed trees and it was likely attributed to being grafted on weaker seedlings or seedlings with broken roots.

it is difficult to compare the growth rate of DSGed trees to trees grafted onto Lavern Manilla rootstock because of the difference in age of the trees. My Lavern Manilla rootstocks are usually purchased saplings that are approx 4 feet tall so I assume they are approx 1 year old. My DSGed trees are literally grafted onto seedlings that just sprouted so it would not be comparing apples to apples.

I do have several experiments to compare the growth rate of my DSGed trees to trees grafted onto Lavern Manilla rootstock so I should have more information this year.

I highly recommend the use of Lavern Manilla rootstock for growing Mango in Southern California as it is a tried and proven rootstock here.

The jury is still out on the various seedling rootstocks I used but Leo Manuel has most of his huge Mango trees on seedling rootstocks and they grow with much vigor and high production. All the research I have found so far indicates that two seedling rootstocks only increases yields and vigor but we will never find out for sure if we do not test it out.

Simon

[simon_grow]

Barath, if you look back at the start of this thread, you can follow the first DSGed Lemon Zest that was grafted in June.  It took less than two weeks to push and flushed multiple times before the end of the year. The frost has killed back some of the newer growth but the trunk now in February of 2016 is about 1 inch wide already. Also note that I have the absolute worst soil for growing mango, solid clay and rocks. Here is a picture of the trunk of my original DSGed Lemon Zest.



Barath, I would keep up with both your single and DSGed trees. We need more data points. If the majority of your DSGed trees are slower in growth than your single rootstock trees, there is probably an issue. One of the seedlings may be injured and can die. DSGed trees should grow at about twice the rate of single rootstock trees.

Something to consider is the timing of your grafts in order to maximize the amount of time the grafted trees get to grow during the hottest months here in SoCal. Lookin back on this thread, I grafted in June but knowing what I know now, I'm going to start grafting in April this year if possible. The major issue with grafting this early in the year is that many trees still have blooms or fruit holding so scions will be difficult to obtain.

It would be great if everyone testing out DSG can post the good and bad of your experiments so that we can all learn together and determine if this technology truely is the next transformative advancement for backyard Mango growing enthusiasts.

In case anyone is interested, I am also working on multiple rootstock technology on Jaboticaba and Lychee with Lucs Mexican Mangosteen in the near future.

Simon

[barath]

Awesome.  Great data points and suggestions.  Thanks Simon!

I do think my DSGs were probably weaker than the ones you've been growing because they're in pots and are mostly polyembryonic seedlings.  I did plant a few mono seeds -- unfortunately they seem more frost sensitive -- I was hoping to do a DSG experiment here with direct-seeded rootstocks that were growing in the ground nicely at the local 7-11 parking lot, but those Keitt seedlings got fried even above 32 F (probably around 35 F).  I'll try again soon and build a better temporary greenhouse for them when I do.

I wonder what would happen if we were to plant the same seeds that La Verne uses, but then DSG with them.  I'm letting one of my La Verne trees grow out in the hopes that it'll fruit soon and produce seeds that are good to use as rootstock in this way.

[simon_grow]

Barath, did you plant the polyembryonic and monoembryonic seeds at the same time, in the same soil and pretty much the same conditions? Your observation that the Monoembryonic seedlings appear to be more cold sensitive can be very useful for selecting rootstocks. I have not not noticed that any particular seedling type is more or less cold sensitive. Is your poly seedlings from Champaigne/Ataulfo/Manilla?

Remember that Leo Manuel has his huge mango trees on a variety of seedling rootstocks so perhaps it is not that Manilla rootstocks are necessarily better growers here in SoCal but that Florida Turpentine rootstock simply does worse.

I just got hail at my house and I'm hoping these small trees will survive so I decided to post some updates of my DSGed trees.  All of my DSGed mango trees that are planted into the ground are flowering at about 12-14 inches tall. I was hoping that seedling rootstock influence would inhibit early flowering but it appears cold weather is too strong of a stimulus. I have some DSGed trees in pots in my garage where it is warmer and these are not flowering.

Simon

[barath]

Barath, did you plant the polyembryonic and monoembryonic seeds at the same time, in the same soil and pretty much the same conditions? Your observation that the Monoembryonic seedlings appear to be more cold sensitive can be very useful for selecting rootstocks. I have not not noticed that any particular seedling type is more or less cold sensitive. Is your poly seedlings from Champaigne/Ataulfo/Manilla?

Remember that Leo Manuel has his huge mango trees on a variety of seedling rootstocks so perhaps it is not that Manilla rootstocks are necessarily better growers here in SoCal but that Florida Turpentine rootstock simply does worse.

I didn't plant them at the same time in the same location, so unfortunately I don't have a side-by-side comparison.  The Keitt seedlings that were in the ground at 7-11 were about a year old, and growing in a makeshift in-ground greenhouse (a cylinder of chicken wire with plastic wrap wrapped around and on top) and were growing well.  The top was a little leaky so it didn't keep the cold air out completely.  One block away, also on the streetside, I had planted a young La Verne 'Manila' two years ago (someone dug it up and took it a month back out of the blue).  That La Verne 'Manila' didn't show any dieback in any of the cold weather we got (including a night of 30 F two winters ago), whereas 2/3 of the Keitt seedlings stems and leaves turned brown despite having protection and likely not dropping much below 35 F.

I really am wondering how we can reproduce the La Verne 'Manila' growth vigor ourselves (without having to buy trees from them as rootstock).  I am letting a La Verne tree grow like crazy in a 15 gal pot in a greenhouse, hoping to get fruit from it that can be used for rootstock.  I also remember reading someone mention that La Verne buys bulk mangoes from Mexico to grow their trees, and that these seeds are from a Manila-type fruit (but not Ataulfo) -- is it possible to buy these fruit at stores?

[simon_grow]

Gary over in Palm Springs has a large, I believe Lavern Manilla that produces quite a lot of fruit. I was giving away lots of the fruit when we had a mango tasting there a couple years ago. The fruit was ok tasting but was definitely different flavored compared to the Ataulfo/Manillas we get in the Asian markets.

Simon

[Paulish]

Awesome thread, thanks for the inspiration! Been meaning to post some pics of these poly seedlings I planted about a month ago for DSG rootstocks. Time to start sourcing some good scionwood.

I've given each seedling as much space for their own individual root development as seems reasonable; even planted the last two in separate holes.








Here's a successful DSG DGA(Damn Good Apple) pushing some nice growth. Started pushing in less than a week from grafting.

[simon_grow]

Paul, you seedlings look like they are doing great. Please keep us updated on the progress of these DSGs.

I have encountered one major issue with DSGed mango trees grown in cooler climates. The issue is that the grafted trees will flower and try to hold fruit the very first year because the cold weather will induce blooms. This causes an unnecessary waste of energy in producing blooms that may have otherwise gone into further vegetative growth.

I propose two new suggestions for those growing in colder climates.
1) innarch two seedling trees together and Do Not graft mature scion onto the tree until it is more established. At this point, the upper cannopy can be top worked with mature scions from a named cultivar. This technique will require a lot of work and my second suggestion may be more practical.
2) graft and grow the DSGed mango trees as explained in this thread but keep them in a pot treated with MicroKote or use an air pruning pot. Instead of immediately planting the tree into the ground, keep the tree in pots and gradually step up the pot to a larger root pruning pot. When the weather gets cold, move into a greenhouse, I use my garage and keep them under artificial lights. When they reach a decent size, perhaps in their second or third year, plant them into the ground.

This technique is also a lot of work but for those of us in colder climates, controlling the temperature or working with I grafted seedling trees is the only alternatives I see. Leo Manuel has excellent results planting seedlings into the ground, letting them establish to the point of fruit bearing and only top working trees with undesirable fruit.

I have one DSGed mango tree that I kept in my garage over the winter and it is my only tree that did not flower. Flowering is an extreme waste of resources when my goal is to achieve a large mango tree.

My next step is to remove all the fruit from my in ground DSGed trees and see if I can spur vegetative growth by increasing nitrogen levels in the leaves through foliar spraying with a Nitrogen fertilizer. I'll keep everyone updated.

Simon

[simon_grow]

Here's another update. I decided to remove all the fruit from my DSGed trees yesterday. The fruit from my DSGed Nam Doc Mai are the largest because it was the first to flower. As you can see in the pics, there was good fruit set and the fruit were getting close to marble size. I removed about 1/2 of each panicle of flowers about  one month ago due to my fear of the panicle snapping in windy weather so that is why the panicles are not the typical cone shape.
NDM




DOT

[simon_grow]

Jumbo Kesar, the last to bloom, only partial bloom


Sweet Tart


Simon

[barath]

Simon, just curious if you have gotten a sense through your experiences, after another winter with DSG mangos in the ground, whether mono or poly seeds are better for cold wet winter conditions here in CA (or one of each).

[simon_grow]

Hey Barath, it has been less than one year since I performed my first DSG so they have only experienced one Winter. I have not noticed any difference in cold tolerance as all my seedlings, as far as I'm aware, survived the frost I got. I have seedlings scattered around my yard and none of them has died that I am aware of.

In terms of my DSGed trees, I got more failures on trees with one or more Manilla/polyembryonic seedling. I'm guessing that the slight increase in failure rate is caused by the noticeably weaker and thinner diameter of the trunk on the Manilla/Poly seedlings. The polyembryonic mango seedlings have the energy of the seed split between multiple sprouts so the seedlings arising from poly seeds are a bit weaker than those coming from mono seeds. This is true for Manilla/Ataulfo/Champaigne and also for Nam Doc Mai but it's not necessarily true for all poly seedlings. Kensington Pride and Lemon Zest are relatively fast growers compared to other polyembryonic varieties but still start out slower than large seeded mono varieties from my observations.

Another observation I have made is that the DSGed trees on mono rootstocks have approximately double the diameter of the trunk compared to those grafted onto poly seedlings. This may be an important consideration for those growing mango in marginal climates as the larger trunked trees may be better able to withstand cold weather better.

Simon

[barath]

Interesting - thanks!

So I guess despite how good La Verne trees seem to do here, mono seeds are the way to go...

[Paulish]

Appreciate the suggestions, definitely factors to consider for future reference. I still have several potted seedlings to work with as well. I might inarch one of the in-ground pairs but I'm still feeling like trying my hand with DSGs on these and seeing how things play out. Haven't had any frosts here in the last few years and there may be some variation with different microclimates. Can't the flowers be culled earlier to redirect energy back into veg before too much is wasted?

Also hoping to find some scionwood of lemon zest, sweet tart, and coconut cream since my seedlings are starting to push. Seems like most sources are on hold due to being in the fruiting stage.

[simon_grow]

Barath, Lavern Manilla is still one of the top Mango rootstocks for SoCal because they are so uniform and they have been proven to grow well here. Leo Manuel has demonstrated that seedling trees, both mono and poly work great as a rootstock as well.

Paul, if you remove the flowers earlier, the tree will re bloom and expend even more energy. I've even tried removing g secondary blooms and my tree sent out a third bloom. The cold weather is too strong a bloom stimulus.

I can help with the LZ scions but the other varieties are too small.

Simon

[barath]

Barath, Lavern Manilla is still one of the top Mango rootstocks for SoCal because they are so uniform and they have been proven to grow well here. Leo Manuel has demonstrated that seedling trees, both mono and poly work great as a rootstock as well.

Simon

Agreed.  I just wish we had a way of replicating at the hobbyist scale what La Verne is doing so that we can produce rootstocks like theirs but do things like DSG them or put them in the ground before they're rootbound, etc.  To do that we need to have a source of the seeds that they use, but so far I'm not clear on where to go for that.  Patrick mentioned that his La Verne tree is fruiting, but he said that it doesn't produce that many viable seeds for some reason.  (I don't know whether their trees are actually polyembryonic given than they're not true Manila, nor is it clear whether they even choose the correct embryo to allow to grow when propagating.)