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Author Topic: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos  (Read 4242 times)

vlan1

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Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« on: January 27, 2016, 05:18:11 PM »
So I tried a Melogold grapefruit for the first time this week and my mind was blown.  I have always been averse to grapefuit due to the outright bitterness but this hybrid has changed my mind. Now I am intent on having a grapefruit and or Pommelo tree in my back yard. I have been trying to find out if any of these varieties are cold hardy in zone 8b. I have not been able to find much concrete evidence but am hoping that some of you have had first hand experience.  The varieties I am looking at are as follows:

Melogold
Oroblanco
Cocktail Grapefruit (Or mandelo as some may call it)
Hirado Butan

I would really like to have at least one red flesh variety so if Hirado Butan is not hardy enough please recommend one that would be.

Thanks!

vlan1

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2016, 12:23:53 PM »
Don't everyone all chime in at once now..... lol

Tom

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2016, 07:20:54 PM »
Too cold where you are without lots of cold protection.

vlan1

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2016, 08:41:15 PM »
Really?  Ive seen some sites list them as being hardy to zone 8b.  Wanted to make sure though. Quite sad to hear that.

Millet

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2016, 08:53:41 PM »
They might be hardy for a great majority of the year, but as Tom wrote, there will be many nights that the tree will have to be protected, or it will have a good chance of being killed.  If you willing to protect the tree on cold nights, it could have a chance of making it through the winter.  Remember, as the tree grows it becomes harder and harder to give it the proper protection required. - Millet

vlan1

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2016, 09:02:57 PM »
Would valentine pummelo and cocktail be my best bet since they have mandarin in their heritage?   

Millet

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2016, 05:31:19 PM »
Valentine pummelo would be a better choice than grapefruit.  You would still need to protect the tree on colder winter nights.  Good quality grapefruit require a lot of heat. High humid night temperatures such as found in Florida and Southern Texas result in low acid fruit, while fruit produced in California and Arizona where night temperatures are low are highly acid. This is why there is very little grapefruit in California and Arizona and a great deal of grapefruit produced in Florida and Southern Texas. It is important to understand how cold temperatures affect citrus trees. Among the citrus types most easily killed or damaged by freezing weather are citrons, lemons and limes. Temperatures in the high 20s will kill or severely damage these trees. Sweet oranges and grapefruits are somewhat more cold hardy and usually require temperatures in the mid 20s before incurring major damage to large branches. Tangerines and mandarins are quite cold-hardy, usually withstanding temperatures as low as the low 20s without significant wood damage. Among the edible types of sweet citrus, the satsuma and kumquats have the greatest degree of cold hardiness. Properly hardened bearing trees will withstand temperatures as low as 20 degrees Fahrenheit without appreciable wood damage.  Keep in mind the temperature ranges given above only refer to leaf or wood damage. Citrus fruits easily freeze at 26 to 28 degrees when these temperatures occur for several hours. A longer duration of freezing temperatures is required to freeze grapefruit compared to sweet oranges

 Millet

vlan1

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2016, 08:48:07 PM »
Millet,
Thank you for the detailed information.
I plan on using Christmas tree lights plus tarps for the tree(s) when necessary.  The more I look the more i dont think i want a true grapefruit but will start with the valentine pummelo and the cocktail mandelo.  Thanks again!

Tom

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2016, 08:55:55 PM »
Of course I completely agree with all Millet says here. I'd have to emphasis Satsumas and kumquats would be the easiest to start with in Austin Texas or similar climates. Meyer lemon would follow closely behind. There are others but they don't really taste good. Even with the easiest, you will be challenged. With a little success you will probably become a full fledged citrus addict ! There are worse things but people will talk.  You might have plenty of citrus growing experience already. Good luck ! Tom

vlan1

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2016, 10:28:58 PM »
Already have a miewa kumquat , ponkan mandarin and a Republic of Texas orange tree.  And understand that kumquats, mandarins, and their hybrids are typically the most cold hardy citrus with oddball exceptions (rangpur lime and yuzu come to mind).

However the purpose of this threat was to establish which pummelo hybrids would be best to attempt to grow where I am ( fully understanding the extra care necessary).
So far it would seem from my research that Valentine Pummelo, Cocktail "Grapefruit" and perhaps bloomsweet grapefruit would be my best bets since they have mandarin parentage which should provide a tad more cold hardiness then non mandarin heritage variations.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 10:31:58 PM by vlan1 »

Pancrazio

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2016, 05:43:49 PM »
A word of caution. In my understanding, ponkan is one of the most tropical mandarins.
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plantrant

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2016, 08:38:30 AM »
I am in lower 8B and have Bloomsweet still ripe on the tree since there have been no freezes this year that could ruin the fruit. The sweet, rich, perfumey smell around the tree is wonderful as the fruit dry a bit. If you are a "traveler' interested in sampling some of them, there is a scion exchange next Saturday AM at Caldwell Nursery in Rosenberg, TX (southwest of Houston). There usually are some folks from Austin who drive out here for the  meetings, and the sponsor is Texas Rare Fruit Growers, an association started by Ed Self. The mature Bloomsweet has survived a brief 14 degree event and made it through like a champ. So if you like somewhat mild/sweet g/f with a lemon flavor, it is a good one.

vlan1

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 12:44:01 PM »
Yes,  since starting this thread I have learned more about the Bloomsweet and I am pretty sure I am going to grab a Bloomsweet tree and a Cocktail Grapefruit tree and leave it at that.........for now.

countryboy1981

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2016, 09:53:21 PM »
Valentine pummelo would be a better choice than grapefruit.  You would still need to protect the tree on colder winter nights.  Good quality grapefruit require a lot of heat. High humid night temperatures such as found in Florida and Southern Texas result in low acid fruit, while fruit produced in California and Arizona where night temperatures are low are highly acid. This is why there is very little grapefruit in California and Arizona and a great deal of grapefruit produced in Florida and Southern Texas. It is important to understand how cold temperatures affect citrus trees. Among the citrus types most easily killed or damaged by freezing weather are citrons, lemons and limes. Temperatures in the high 20s will kill or severely damage these trees. Sweet oranges and grapefruits are somewhat more cold hardy and usually require temperatures in the mid 20s before incurring major damage to large branches. Tangerines and mandarins are quite cold-hardy, usually withstanding temperatures as low as the low 20s without significant wood damage. Among the edible types of sweet citrus, the satsuma and kumquats have the greatest degree of cold hardiness. Properly hardened bearing trees will withstand temperatures as low as 20 degrees Fahrenheit without appreciable wood damage.  Keep in mind the temperature ranges given above only refer to leaf or wood damage. Citrus fruits easily freeze at 26 to 28 degrees when these temperatures occur for several hours. A longer duration of freezing temperatures is required to freeze grapefruit compared to sweet oranges

 Millet

A couple winters ago my owari satsuma made it through 17 degrees or lower without any damage to the branches or leaves and the meyer lemon made it through the same temps with only leaf loss and damage to fresh growth.

vlan1

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2016, 11:08:49 AM »
Good info CountryBoy  but.........neither of those are Grapefruits or grapefruit hybrids.

Millet

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2016, 02:15:07 PM »
Grapefruit requires high temperatures and high humidly to produce good quality fruit. Areas with high humidity really helps to  maintain the needed higher night time temperatures.  Without this type of climate, grapefruit do not produce good tasting high quality fruit.  Something like upper 80s-F day and and upper 60s-F- night are needed. Some of the best grapefruit growing locations in the USA are in South Texas, around the city of  Mission, Texas.  This area  has an average year arond temperatures of 88-F high, and 63-F low.  - Millet
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 02:40:17 PM by Millet »

Pancrazio

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2016, 05:49:38 PM »
Hey millet do you have by the chance any data on the total accumulated heat needed for grapefruits? The temperatures you cite are usual at my place but here they last just 2-3 months, and i'm pretty sure that this isn't the case in US. But to have a better picture of what happens i thing that accumulated heat can give a better idea.
Just wondering.
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Millet

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2016, 10:39:49 PM »
Pancrazio, to grow good quality grapefruit the temperature should stay in the area of 60-F to 86-F regardless of the time of day. - Millet

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2016, 12:22:46 AM »
Grapefruit are definitely possible in 8B - I know of several well established abandoned trees scattered around north Florida and south Georgia, including, I believe, Duncan, Marsh, Ruby Red, and perhaps an Oroblanco (pale yellow flesh, relatively few seeds, thick rind, large fruit, with the smallest the size of large commercial grapefruit and the largest almost the size of a standard pummelo, but based on its size -35 feet- it seems like it would have had to have been planted right when Oroblanco was first released in California).  I harvest fruit by the suitcase (literally, collecting them in a duffle bag) off these trees every year.

I also have trees I planted, both in a 9A-mircoclimate (in town) and in a solidly 8B area outside of town.

For white grapefruit, I would recommend Duncan (or what I am assuming is Duncan - very pale flesh, very seedy, excellent flavor - fairly intense, but lightly sweet and not at all bitter). For red grapefruit, I would recommend Flame or Rio Red - very good, sweet, dark red grapefruit, without the bitterness of Ruby Red, for instance.  I've only had a few fruit that were from a tree I could positively identify as Flame, but they seem to have a bit more acid tang than Rio does.

Pummelos are certainly less tolerant of cold, but there is the one tree I mentioned earlier that I really believe is probably Oroblanco that is 35-feet tall, never receives care, and seems to be almost bulletproof.   My in-town pummelos have never needed protection, and my out-of-town Hirado Buntan and Oroblanco trees  survived one of the worst winters in recent memory (though with significant damage) and came through last year's mild winter with only very mild leaf loss.  No fruit yet (two years in-ground - the Hirado set some fruit but aborted them quickly in a brief dry spell we had this spring), but I am hoping that if we get a mild winter this year, the Hirado will fruit.  Chandler is a good red pummelo - I probably prefer it to Hirado - but I have not had the chance to try a Valentine or Cocktail.  I've never had a pummelo I didn't like, though. 

 

Citradia

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2016, 08:35:55 PM »
I have s Rio Red that went a whole night without its space heater on with low of 19 degrees, was covered in 4 mil plastic with 32 gal water barrel next to tree, and only suffered some leaf loss, but did not flower the next spring. I've learned that if good citrus, not trifoliate or Ichang hybrids, defoliate, they will not bloom/produce the next spring.

Pancrazio

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2016, 04:57:03 PM »
I will attempt, next spring with a in-ground planting of Hirado Buntan and Oroblanco/Sweetie grafted on the same Flying Dragon rootstock.
I hope at least one of them will survive and to be able to show/clarify if any difference in hardiness exists among those plants.

Spring:


End of Summer:


Hopefully at least the hirado buntan should survive. I hope to be able to cover effectively the graft point even in the case of snow, that's why i grafted so low on the stem.
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Millet

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2016, 09:26:15 PM »
Is there such a thing as a cold hardy grapefruit?  Varieties descending in order from least to most cold tolerant are citron, lime, lemon, grapefruit, orange, mandarin, kumquat.  One important factor on the amount of freeze tolerance for a treee is the age of the tree.  Young trees freeze quickly.  I think your trees will need cold protection for some time.  Citron, lime, lemon will be killed or severely damaged with temperatures in the high 20s-F. Oranges, grapefruit, mid 20s can damage even the large branches.  Mandarins and satsumas can with stand as low as low 20s-F if the trees are healthy. - Millet

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2016, 09:37:19 AM »
I'm not really sure how the thing will turn out. While theoretically oranges shouldn't grow here, given in fact the temperature you list, but a neighbor of mine has a orange tree planted in his garden since at least 5-6 years, and it managed to survive several freezes. I guess because our autumn last several months and plant acclimate pretty well? However, last winter the sweet orange plant survived this:



without even losing a leaf. And the plant wasn't even close to a building. I guess that the fact that it was a plant in a sheltered location covered from northern winds could have helped, but still. I'm not sure if that's just dumb luck from his side, but a this point i'm willing to experiment with several citrus and see if i can manage to grow some too.
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vlan1

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2016, 12:39:29 PM »
Since the original post I have acquired a   Bloomsweet  "grapefuit" aka Kinkoji   and next year plan to pick up a cocktail grapefruit as well.

Pancrazio

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2016, 07:40:53 PM »
My Bloomsweet is doing beautifully till now. On PTFD, north exposure, it is dealing beautifully with cold snaps we had till now (Temps ranging from 30 to 24F). It is the biggest one.

My main concern is, if it remains so vigorous probably the place where i though it could be planted will be too small. I hoped to have a plant no taller than 2,5/3mt (8-10ft max).
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Millet

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2016, 09:15:16 PM »
Stan McKenzie reports that the  Bloomsweet is hardy down to 15F (-10C) . However Stan does not provide any of the previous conditions, nor how long this tree was at that temperature.

Ilya11

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2016, 06:22:28 AM »
My Bloomsweet is doing beautifully till now. On PTFD, north exposure, it is dealing beautifully with cold snaps we had till now (Temps ranging from 30 to 24F). It is the biggest
My main concern is, if it remains so vigorous probably the place where i though it could be planted will be too small. I hoped to have a plant no taller than 2,5/3mt (8-10ft max).

Pancrazio,
The mother plant of your graft is now almost 4 meters high, but columnar in shape.

Last week harvest:


Very good taste, completely ripe, sweet with some pleasant acidity, practically no bitterness, for me it is better than most of conventional grapefruits

 
Best regards,
                       Ilya

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2016, 08:25:59 AM »
Ilya,
glad you saw this. Hopefully I will be able to get a good plant in few years. I'm particularly happy to see that you plant managed to remain outside so long. I guess our climate are pretty similar judging from the other plants i see in the pics. I would prefer a little more "dome shaped" plant but i guess i can prune it in the shape i prefer. The fruits indeed look very nice. Do you know how much they can hold on the plant? The decorative effect isn't secondary for this one.
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Ilya11

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2016, 11:41:30 AM »
Pancrazio,
Last year I harvested some fruits at the beginning of February, they were holding nicely on the tree, but lost almost completely their acidity. Now, in the middle of December the balance of sweet/acid is optimal.
I am much puzzled why this variety is not of commercial success.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Millet

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2016, 03:19:19 PM »
I've seen on the Internet both that  Bloomsweet is a cross between the pummelo and sour orange, and also between pummelo and sweet orange.   Looking at Lya11 picture it is quite easy to see the pummelo parentage, especially in the thickness of the peel.

Delvi83

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2016, 07:24:16 AM »
Ilya, congratulation.....your tree looks very healthy.
Anyway it's also a big tree, so i guess it withstanded  more  winters. What's the lowest temp it survived? did you protect it ?


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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2017, 09:56:49 AM »
Delvy83,
Before it wasplanted  for 5 years in my garden near Paris; i survived one winter with minus 12C (10.4-F) and two winters with minimum of minus 9C (15.8-F). Each time lost some wood but gave vigorous growth in the following summer.
Now it is in   9b zone garden, where of course it has no problems with hardiness
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 04:16:01 PM by Millet »
Best regards,
                       Ilya

vlan1

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2017, 01:28:04 PM »
My Bloomsweet is doing beautifully till now. On PTFD, north exposure, it is dealing beautifully with cold snaps we had till now (Temps ranging from 30 to 24F). It is the biggest
My main concern is, if it remains so vigorous probably the place where i though it could be planted will be too small. I hoped to have a plant no taller than 2,5/3mt (8-10ft max).

Pancrazio,
The mother plant of your graft is now almost 4 meters high, but columnar in shape.

Last week harvest:


Very good taste, completely ripe, sweet with some pleasant acidity, practically no bitterness, for me it is better than most of conventional grapefruits

 



Are you sure that is a bloomsweet tree?  Every picture of fruit I have seen are  "teardrop" shaped with a neck almost similar to a minneola tangelo but your fruit appear to be almost uniformly spherical.




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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2017, 03:42:50 PM »
I have to agree that the fruit does not appear to look like bloomsweet grapefruit in the photographs that I have seen:




Ilya11

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2017, 02:48:49 PM »
At least I bought it from Bernhardt Voss under this name.
He propagated Bloomsweet seedling budwood grafted on poncirus and it seems that the first flowering happened in  my garden. Other than shape it fits the description of Kinkoji/Bloomsweet.

Best regards,
                       Ilya

vlan1

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2017, 05:31:32 PM »
At least I bought it from Bernhardt Voss under this name.
He propagated Bloomsweet seedling budwood grafted on poncirus and it seems that the first flowering happened in  my garden. Other than shape it fits the description of Kinkoji/Bloomsweet.




To me it looks more like a Cocktail grapefruit because of the shape , orange flesh and yellow to green coloring.  But then again cocktails are known for their seediness and your photo shows a seedless fruit.

Ilya11

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2017, 08:11:05 AM »
Yes, it is almost seedless, one seed out of 20 fruits.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

countryboy1981

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2017, 01:21:01 PM »
I had a seedling grapefruit less than 2 inches tall survive 20 degrees f this past winter.

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Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2017, 12:18:06 AM »
Dunstan citrumelo is said by some to resemble a slightly underripe grapefruit in taste, with only a slight off flavor (much less than other trifoliate hybrids). I'm not sure it's an outright replacement for grapefruit, but I certainly could imagine a second generation hybrid of it being a grapefruit substitute. I'm not sure if anyone's ever tried breeding Ichang papeda with grapefruit, or an orange-Ichang papeda hybrid together with grapefruit (or pomelo), but it may be worth a try.

 

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