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Author Topic: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy  (Read 1153 times)

Pancrazio

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Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« on: May 02, 2016, 08:36:18 PM »
Hi everyone,
this winter i have transplanted/moved/potted up some poncirus trifoliata i had in ground or crammed in a pot.
Usually i don't think much about moving and abusing of small leafless temperate fruit tree... when they are leafless, they do take root abuse quite well.
Well, in my humble opinion, this doesn't look the case when it come down to poncirus trifoliata.
I transplanted 7/10 plants, with some serious root pruning, from a small crammed pot to several bigger pot, but they haven't showed any sign of emitting new leaves... also, some of the bigger "flying dragons" seem to have similar problems.
Now, i'd like to know: it's just me, or this species look pretty sensitive when it comes to root pruning? Do you have had any similar experience?
Funny think is: i have a grafted yuzu on poncirus, and this one got serious root pruning too, but it's now pushing vigorously... i have also formulated the theory that in PT the storage of energy goes to roots during winter while in other citrus it says on leaves, but i can't explain in any way this difference of behavior.
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Millet

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2016, 06:54:33 PM »
The more hardiness a citrus variety possesses, the slower it leafs out in the spring. This is true for flying dragon (FD) also.  As you probably already know, citrus, including FD,  grow in different flushes.  First leaf growth, then root growth.  each cycle takes about two months.  Having cut back your FD roots might cause a prolonged delay before you notice additional scion growth. Also FD grows much slower then other citrus.  Give your trees some time. Repost here again in a month or so as the summer growing season is a little further along. - Millet

Pancrazio

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2016, 07:44:30 AM »
Honestly, i didn't thought that as a possible explanation, this seems reasonable, the plant being repotted very late in winter. So they are actually flushing their roots right now. Well, i hope they are gonna leaf out soon, so i'll be able to graft them in september.
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Mark in Texas

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2016, 09:08:20 AM »
Honestly, i didn't thought that as a possible explanation, this seems reasonable, the plant being repotted very late in winter. So they are actually flushing their roots right now. Well, i hope they are gonna leaf out soon, so i'll be able to graft them in september.

FD is a PITA.  nuff said.........   :-\

Tom

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2016, 09:57:59 AM »
PITA ? What does that mean or stand for ? Thanks. Tom

Mark in Texas

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2016, 10:23:21 AM »
PITA ? What does that mean or stand for ? Thanks. Tom

Pain in the ass.  FD is finicky having a tendency for chlorosis aka low uptake potential of minors, and imparts dormancy for a long period of time unless you're under tropical conditions which I'm not. I grow in a greenhouse and let my temps get down to 34F every year.  My citrus on regular trifoliata is 5-8' tall while the runt is a graft I did of Meyer lemon on FD is only about 2' tall by 5' wide.  All trees are about 5 years old.

Mark

Citradia

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2016, 06:52:56 PM »
I agree with Mark. My Crocston GF on FD has been in ground for three years after graft, and looks more like a ground cover than a tree. Easy to cover in winter though.

Millet

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2016, 08:53:52 PM »
My 10+ year old in ground Cara Cara Navel Orange is grafted upon flying dragon, and is 11-ft. tall and the same wide. Just about every tree that I grow, both in ground and container are all grafted upon flying dragon rootstock.  I like the rootstock. - Millet

Mark in Texas

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2016, 09:37:16 AM »
My 10+ year old in ground Cara Cara Navel Orange is grafted upon flying dragon, and is 11-ft. tall and the same wide. Just about every tree that I grow, both in ground and container are all grafted upon flying dragon rootstock.  I like the rootstock. - Millet

11' tall Millet?  That sounds like my Key lime on trifoliata and doesn't sound like FD to me, just regular trifoliata either that or your Cara Cara is super vigorous.  I chose thorny FD seedlings that were gnarly, twisted, supposedly the real deal as opposed to the regular thorny trifoliata that's straight.  Took this photo of my Meyer on FD yesterday, one on the left.  Must have grafted it 7 years ago and it's been in a prime pot/location for about 4 years now.  It bears very well. Young, branching Lemon Zest in the middle is branching beautifully, very heavy, after cutting it down below the first node to nothing but a stick this spring.

"Ground cover" is about right Citradia. 



From left to right, store bought (and just given a big "haircut", top right) is a key lime on trifoliata, Moro on trifoliata, Meyer on FD (far right) all planted about 4-5 years ago at the same time.


« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 09:48:25 AM by Mark in Texas »

Millet

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2016, 11:48:45 AM »
I did not graft the Cara Cara myself. I purchased the tree from a citrus nursery, and requested FD as the rootstock. Mark, I see your trees are in RootMaker containers.  I presume tha the large RM containers are bottomless, so the tree's roots grow into the ground. - Millet
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 11:52:29 AM by Millet »

Mark in Texas

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2016, 12:33:38 PM »
I did not graft the Cara Cara myself. I purchased the tree from a citrus nursery, and requested FD as the rootstock. Mark, I see your trees are in RootMaker containers.  I presume tha the large RM containers are bottomless, so the tree's roots grow into the ground. - Millet

Yes they do.  Here's a shot either last year or the year before when I added 9 panels to make my final pots of about 33" diameter.  Notice the thick roots of this Moro growing into native soil.

You didn't get them on FD.  I got my two on the left from Austin's Natural Gardener, also supposed to be on FD or some dwarfing rootstock.  It's not, and I don't trust nurseries.  I call up the source, the grafting outfits and talk to a master greenhouse/field manager.



Tom

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2016, 02:37:39 PM »
Dr. Powell was with extension in at least 4 states and he usually prefers flying dragon unless it's for a naturally occurring short variety. He like I and many others do not want to climb a ladder to pick our fruit. You can definitely make more fruit on the straight thorned trifoliata root stock but that is not usually recommended to me, by me nor anywhere around me. I can't remember the last time I disagreed with Millet or Dr. Powell. If I did I was probably wrong and have since changed my mind !

If I was going to plant 25 acres of citrus I would probably have different thoughts and so would they I guess..... in a green house or growing for fun, FD has been just fine for me. I have one Meyer Lemon on its own root stock and I trim it back each year. I also get torn up by its thorns all the time. No way I'd be interested in climbing a ladder to get tortured.

The 3 in ground satsumas I have need to be cut back each year and I think they are all on FD.

Tom

Mark in Texas

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2016, 06:07:14 PM »
I've learned to manage FD's disadvantages except for the long dormant period it imparts to its scion which cuts back on production compared to say..... sour orange.   I probably have 200 or so tangelo on this 8 year old tree, about 7- 8' tall, whose rootstock is sour orange, my fave for outdoor growing conditions especially in heavy clay.



To each his own.......   ;)

Tom

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2016, 07:11:48 PM »
Mark, that is a great picture ! I see you are able to eat your clay soil grown sour orange rootstock tangelo prechilled by the snow I see in your picture. I must be doing something wrong or at the least different !! Excellent picture and your tangelos look beautiful. I've heard that most people think sour orange rootstock gives the best flavor to citrus varieties. I think it's also supposed to be the most salt resistant on the gulf coast. Your tangelo looks like an excellent specimen tree. I thought it looked like an Artic Frost at first. Tom

Millet

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2016, 09:16:03 PM »
Sour Orange is, or was, a great rootstock.  At one time it was the major rootstock for the citrus industry.  As Mark wrote it is a good stock for clay soil, and as Tom wrote it is also a good stock for salinity. What completely and totally killed the use of using sour orange as a rootstock in the citrus industry,was it susceptibility to tristeza virus.  At one time I thought about using it as a rootstock in my greenhouse, but Sour Orange  produces large trees, and large trees are not suitable for greenhouse culture.  I do have a Saint Dominic Sour Orange tree, which I started from seed on August 14, 2006. It is growing in a Root Maker container.  It is a very vertical growing tree about 8-ft. tall, with 20 - 30 fruit, pretty much the first year fruiting (last year it had 3 fruit).  Perhaps I will be able to make some marmalade this year. - Millet

Pancrazio

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2016, 09:29:17 AM »
I want to join Tom in complimenting for the pic. It's awesome.
Regarding FD, I honestly hope it will dwarf the plants. I don't mind a runt that I can cover easily since i'm outside a citrus growing zone, and my garden is definitively small (way smaller than i'd like, at least) so a big plant would be essentially unplaceable.
This, and cold hardiness, make the FD an hard-to-beat rootstock for me. Clorosis is of course a major concern, but you have to admit that a not clorotic plant is pointless if dies back during winter, or you don't have enough space to to grow it.
Sour orange is indeed tempting. In my understanding, tough, is very vigorous. So i'm thinking to use it on the most unpromising citrus on the cold hardiness department; so if they die back to bud union, they can hopefully recover swiftly.
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Mark in Texas

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2016, 10:15:41 AM »
Mark, that is a great picture ! I see you are able to eat your clay soil grown sour orange rootstock tangelo prechilled by the snow I see in your picture. I must be doing something wrong or at the least different !! Excellent picture and your tangelos look beautiful. I've heard that most people think sour orange rootstock gives the best flavor to citrus varieties. I think it's also supposed to be the most salt resistant on the gulf coast. Your tangelo looks like an excellent specimen tree. I thought it looked like an Artic Frost at first. Tom

Good luck with that marmalade Millet, sounds wonderful.  BTW, lime season just ended although there are hundreds of BB size fruit now.  For months I was harvesting Mex limes about 5 daily.   Wife made an AWESOME key lime pie recently. 



We cut back on the fresh lime juice to 1/3 cup and added about 1 TB. of lime zest.  Grahm cracker crust with plenty of butter, bake a bit before filling.  She added vanilla extract to the whipped cream topping.

Moved since, doing everything in a greenhouse now.  That Orlando tangelo was the most delicious fruit we've ever eaten.  Also had a Rio Red grapefruit on sour orange and it produced incredible somewhat "sweet" fruit that had a red skin, juicy, huge sections that were easy to dig out.....best in Feb.-March.  Corpus Christi, TX.  BTW, took out my scrawny Rio Red on FD and put in a Lemon Zest.   We get great valley grapefruit for $.00 a big bag so it made no sense to keep it.   The greenhouse Rio Red budwood came from the old house and was grafted on FD like I said.  It was a runt, sprawling just like the Meyer lemon now.  Fruit quality is fair and the fruit on the FD was much smaller than on sour orange.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 10:41:11 AM by Mark in Texas »

Mark in Texas

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2016, 10:24:06 AM »
Sour Orange is, or was, a great rootstock.  At one time it was the major rootstock for the citrus industry.

Still is except for the biggest wholesaler Bechel and Sons who have a op in La and Tx and are doing mainly Carrizo Citrange.  Only one still used in South Texas, the valley, is sour orange.  It's just recently that nurseries have been offering "dwarf" citrus trees on trifoliata and selling to the Houston area.  Some  are grafting on carrizo but ALL field trees and big box trees from central Texas on south are on sour orange cause it tolerates salts so well.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2016, 10:34:31 AM »
Here's a 12' tall Rio Red during that same, rare snow event of 2004.  Funny but neither the fruit or the citrus trees were damaged.  Quite the contrary, seemed to help the taste.  This Rio Red used to produce hundreds of 4-5" fruit.  We gave most away after eating it daily for months.  Tree was planted on the north wall and went thru some pretty hard freezes with no damage.  Trunk was a good 10" caliper.  Grapefruit need a long hot season and Corpus Christi was an oven year round.



 

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