Author Topic: Which cultivars are renamed, or just the same? Label swappers for profit?  (Read 25379 times)

FlyingFoxFruits

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HAVE RECENTLY DISCOVERED IN PAST 3YRS, THAT CULTIVARS AREN'T WHAT YOU THINK!

APPARENTLY THERE ARE ABOUT 5 NAM DAC MAI MANGO, AND ONLY A FEW ARE GREAT

SAME WITH EMPEROR LYCHEE

ALSO

OTHER NURSERIES DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR TRADEMARKED CULTIVAR NAMES, SO THEY JUST SWITCH TO SIMILAR...HEARD HOPKINS MAY HAVE DONE THIS WITH SWEETHEART....NOW SWEETSENSATION...

SAME WITH A BUNCH OF OTHER AVOCADO VARIETIES!

LETS NARROW DOWN THE LIST HERE ON THIS THREAD! PLEASE ALL CONTRIBUTE WITHOUT TRYING TO TARNISH ANY NAMES (I LOVE HOPKINS, SO NOTHING AGAINST THEM WITH MY REMARK ABOVE, JUST HEARSAY, AND I SAID IT TO ILLUSTRATE A POINT)

SO WE ARE LISTING CULTIVARS THAT HAVE SYNONYMS, OR CLEVERLY ALTERED NAMES, AND CULTIVARS THAT HAVE MORE THAN ONE VARIATION WITHIN THE SAME VARIETY!!! LIKE NAM DOC, AND EMPEROR...

THANKS!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 01:27:34 PM by ASaffron »
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murahilin

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 04:12:55 PM »
Nothing wrong with what Hopkins is doing because they do not know the actual name of the variety so they have to call it something to avoid paying trademark fees. The namers of the sweetheart gave a trademarked name to a variety that was already named from Australia.

Other things renamed:
Young mango was renamed tebow

A bunch of dragonfruit was renamed by pine island.

PPK was renamed Lemon Meringue

The bosworth lychees are all renamed Chinese varieties

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 04:17:02 PM »
Bosworth 3 lychee = Kwai Mai Pink

"Tebow" mango = Young mango

Lemon Meringue mango = Po Pyu Kalay

Honeybell tangelo = Minneola tangelo

Champagne mango = Ataulfo mango

edself65

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 04:21:09 PM »
None of those excuses make it right! It creates a lot of confusion for collectors who are always looking for new varieties to add to our collections! I would rather pay a couple dollars more whether you agree with trade marking names or varieties or whatever than pay $50 for what I think is a new variety! The nurseries know what they are propagating! They would not propagate thousands of plants they do not what variety it is! If that is their excuse that is total bullshit! It is about making $4 or $5 dollars more per plant on thousands of plants!

Sincerely,

Ed Self

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 04:26:46 PM »
None of those excuses make it right! It creates a lot of confusion for collectors who are always looking for new varieties to add to our collections! I would rather pay a couple dollars more whether you agree with trade marking names or varieties or whatever than pay $50 for what I think is a new variety! The nurseries know what they are propagating! They would not propagate thousands of plants they do not what variety it is! If that is their excuse that is total bullshit! It is about making $4 or $5 dollars more per plant on thousands of plants!

Sincerely,

Ed Self

I CONCUR, 100%.
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murahilin

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 04:45:33 PM »
Why should Hopkins have to pay a fee to sell a variety just because someone else renamed it and trademarked their made up name?

I think everyone should start calling the sweetheart something else that is not trademarked to stop people from this BS of trademarking a variety they did not come up with on their own.

If the creator of the sweetheart actually had created the sweetheart themselves, then I would see what Hopkins was doing as wrong. In this situation, Hopkins is 100% justified in calling the sweetheart whatever they wish.

The only way to resolve this issue is to find out the original name of the sweetheart so all the other nurseries would know what to call it instead of making up new names for it as Hopkins was forced to. There is not a huge profit margin for selling fruit trees so to have to cut off a large percentage of your profit just because someone registered a trademarked name over 10 years after the tree became popular is just ridiculous.

edself65

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 04:54:31 PM »
Because when the day is done you are only screwing the consumer! The average consumer has no clue this crap is taking place! They think Hopkins or whoever has discovered a new variety so they buy it not realizing they may allready be growing it or tried that variety and didn't even like it! Hopkins doesn't have to pay the trade mark fee nor do they have to propagate the material and sell it! It is a choice they make to avoid the fee and then create confusion among collectors and growers! Again most growers would rather pay $4 or $5 extra than buy the same plant twice by a different name. So I guess Hopkins will be confused by the new Zill Mangos and have to create new names for them to avoid the trademark fee!

Sincerely,

Ed Self

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 05:03:27 PM »
Because when the day is done you are only screwing the consumer! The average consumer has no clue this crap is taking place! They think Hopkins or whoever has discovered a new variety so they buy it not realizing they may allready be growing it or tried that variety and didn't even like it! Hopkins doesn't have to pay the trade mark fee nor do they have to propagate the material and sell it! It is a choice they make to avoid the fee and then create confusion among collectors and growers! Again most growers would rather pay $4 or $5 extra than buy the same plant twice by a different name. So I guess Hopkins will be confused by the new Zill Mangos and have to create new names for them to avoid the trademark fee!

Sincerely,

Ed Self

The people who trademarked the Sweetheart trademarked a lychee that was already in existence in Australia. Perhaps not unlike if someone were to rename the 'Ha Kip' something else and trademark the name. Or substitute 'Ha Kip' for an existing cultivar for any other species.

'Ataulfo' gets marketed as 'Champagne mango', 'Honey mango', etc, depending on who is selling it.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 05:06:32 PM by Squam256 »

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 05:25:10 PM »
The bosworth lychees are all renamed Chinese varieties

You got that one backwards as the Chinese names came frist. It was the Australians that renamed them with Bosworth numbers.
Oscar
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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 06:04:48 PM »
The bosworth lychees are all renamed Chinese varieties

You got that one backwards as the Chinese names came frist. It was the Australians that renamed them with Bosworth numbers.
Oscar

I think my wording was not clear. I meant to say exactly what you did.

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 06:11:08 PM »
I think your both saying the same thing.

Anyway, IIRC the B-3/ Kwai Mai Pink issue arose because the original labels on the plants imported from China were blown off in a cyclone? and so recieved the local name B-3. I think the Kwai Mai Red? (Kwai Mi) was also for a time called Bosworth 10.

The other fruit here that is in a similar situation is the Achachairu - though its not even a cultuivar. They are grown at one huge scale farm from seed, yet have recieved PBR status, which is supposed to be for special registered cultivars. Anyway, they have been re-branded 'Achacha' due to Australians' tendancy to drop syllables at the end of words, and have an exclusive license on commercial propogation of the plant. The up side is that we have one decent fruit in the supermarket now.

murahilin

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 06:21:15 PM »
Because when the day is done you are only screwing the consumer! The average consumer has no clue this crap is taking place! They think Hopkins or whoever has discovered a new variety so they buy it not realizing they may allready be growing it or tried that variety and didn't even like it! Hopkins doesn't have to pay the trade mark fee nor do they have to propagate the material and sell it! It is a choice they make to avoid the fee and then create confusion among collectors and growers! Again most growers would rather pay $4 or $5 extra than buy the same plant twice by a different name. So I guess Hopkins will be confused by the new Zill Mangos and have to create new names for them to avoid the trademark fee!

Sincerely,

Ed Self

I don't think they are doing it solely to avoid the fee, but largely on principle. I would not sell the sweetheart as the sweetheart if I had a nursery. Why should someone else get money for doing absolutely nothing. If they had a patent on the variety that is another story and they would deserve any fees.

The situation you described about renaming Zill's cultivars does not apply to what Hopkins is doing because Zill's created those cultivars unlike the sweetheart people. To rename a Zill's cultivar would be wrong. It was wrong when Pine Island renamed an already named cultivar, the Young, to Tebow.

Trademarking a name is not wrong in itself because it is usually done for marketing purposes and people would generally know the name of the original cultivar as with the Ataulfo. Nurseries know the original name for the champagne mango so they do not have to sell it as Champagne and then pay fees. The real name of the sweetheart is not known so it is free game to rename. I know it is not the best solution so that is why there needs to be a DNA analysis of the sweetheart and compare to all the cultivars in FL and Australia. This will end the renaming and I am sure Hopkins will gladly call the "sweet sensation" by its original name.

To pay a few dollars extra to the sweetheart people is not fair to growers because as I've said before, the sweetheart people did not create the variety, instead they just RE-named it. Why should someone have to pay for a renamed name of an already named cultivar? That's unfair to all the nurseries that sell the "sweet sensation".

On another note, I don't think the sweetheart trademark would likely hold up in court. I explained my reasoning in another post. It will be interesting to see if they actually do sue anyone and what the result would be.

edself65

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2012, 06:32:22 PM »
We will see!  Hopkins has a history of renaming plants. They did the same thing with several varieties of Avocados from Texas. This was done to a grower in Texas who selected and evaluated the varieties of avocados by Hopkins. They did care about the guy who did the work on the avocado varieties. It was all about the $1 he was charging to use the name.

I am willing to bet we will see a Coconut Sensation or Lemon Sensation with a Hopkins tag on it! Then defend them!

Thanks,

Ed

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2012, 06:41:45 PM »
We will see!  Hopkins has a history of renaming plants. They did the same thing with several varieties of Avocados from Texas. This was done to a grower in Texas who selected and evaluated the varieties of avocados by Hopkins. They did care about the guy who did the work on the avocado varieties. It was all about the $1 he was charging to use the name.

I am willing to bet we will see a Coconut Sensation or Lemon Sensation with a Hopkins tag on it! Then defend them!

Thanks,

Ed

Lol. I definitely will not be defending them if they rename those mangos.

I was unaware they had a history of renaming fruit. Do you know which avocados they renamed?

edself65

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2012, 07:01:08 PM »
Hopkins name-Brazos Belle = Wilma ( orginal Texas name)

Hopkins name-Lila = Opal ( orginal Texas name) When Lila showed up in Texas with the Lila name we thought Hopkins misspelled Lula but we were informed by Texas nurseries it was a newly discovered cold hardy Avocado from Hopkins!


Hopkins name-Fantastic = Pryor ( orginal Texas name)


Hopkins name-Poncho = Pancho ( orginal Texas name)

Thanks,

Ed

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 08:32:29 PM »
I thought of starting a similar thread but backed off ... so thanks, Adam.
My biggest gripe is all them Vietnamese nurseries selling Lancetilla as "Elephant mango"  >:(
Tim

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 10:19:14 PM »
Seems like Hopkins has no integrity whatsoever.
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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 11:13:11 PM »
Seems like Hopkins has no integrity whatsoever.

OOOOH, harsh!

They aren't bad at all...they have quality trees, and varieties that I really am glad they stock and propagate...but I like pine island the best!!! Prices, and quality of nursery stock, make them peerless and elite.

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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 12:30:22 AM »
Because when the day is done you are only screwing the consumer! The average consumer has no clue this crap is taking place! They think Hopkins or whoever has discovered a new variety so they buy it not realizing they may allready be growing it or tried that variety and didn't even like it! Hopkins doesn't have to pay the trade mark fee nor do they have to propagate the material and sell it! It is a choice they make to avoid the fee and then create confusion among collectors and growers! Again most growers would rather pay $4 or $5 extra than buy the same plant twice by a different name. So I guess Hopkins will be confused by the new Zill Mangos and have to create new names for them to avoid the trademark fee!

Sincerely,

Ed Self

I don't think they are doing it solely to avoid the fee, but largely on principle. I would not sell the sweetheart as the sweetheart if I had a nursery. Why should someone else get money for doing absolutely nothing. If they had a patent on the variety that is another story and they would deserve any fees.

The situation you described about renaming Zill's cultivars does not apply to what Hopkins is doing because Zill's created those cultivars unlike the sweetheart people. To rename a Zill's cultivar would be wrong. It was wrong when Pine Island renamed an already named cultivar, the Young, to Tebow.

Trademarking a name is not wrong in itself because it is usually done for marketing purposes and people would generally know the name of the original cultivar as with the Ataulfo. Nurseries know the original name for the champagne mango so they do not have to sell it as Champagne and then pay fees. The real name of the sweetheart is not known so it is free game to rename. I know it is not the best solution so that is why there needs to be a DNA analysis of the sweetheart and compare to all the cultivars in FL and Australia. This will end the renaming and I am sure Hopkins will gladly call the "sweet sensation" by its original name.

To pay a few dollars extra to the sweetheart people is not fair to growers because as I've said before, the sweetheart people did not create the variety, instead they just RE-named it. Why should someone have to pay for a renamed name of an already named cultivar? That's unfair to all the nurseries that sell the "sweet sensation".

On another note, I don't think the sweetheart trademark would likely hold up in court. I explained my reasoning in another post. It will be interesting to see if they actually do sue anyone and what the result would be.
I agree 100% and in doing so the name Tebow has now spread across the nation.  Some people who own it strictly for the name, in Timmy we trust, will never know that they really have a Young. 

As I believe someone else said, Pine Island has also taken the name(s) of certain dragon fruit and "renamed" them with their own names.  Since Pine Island ships nationwide, the "rename" is and has been spread across the country.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 01:05:47 AM by bsbullie »
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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 01:03:14 AM »

I agree 100% and in doing so the name Tebow has now spread across the nation.  Some people who own it strictly for the name, in Timmy we trust, will never know that they really have a Young. 

As I believe someone else said, Pine Island has also taken the name(s0 of certain dragon fruit and "renamed" them with their own names.  Sine Pine Island ships nationwide, the "rename" is and has ben spread across the country.

Renaming cultivars is not only bad nursery etiquette, it is extremely confusing for the buying public. Sometimes a second nursery will rename, what a first nursery already renamed, then it becomes impossible to find out what anything really is.
Oscar
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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 01:08:51 AM »
Oscar - agree 100%.

By the way, I edited my previous post to correct the spellings/typos.  PJ/murahilin - I really wish you guys could find a way to fix the light gray color of the font while typing in a post  :)
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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 01:15:13 AM »

I agree 100% and in doing so the name Tebow has now spread across the nation.  Some people who own it strictly for the name, in Timmy we trust, will never know that they really have a Young. 

As I believe someone else said, Pine Island has also taken the name(s0 of certain dragon fruit and "renamed" them with their own names.  Sine Pine Island ships nationwide, the "rename" is and has ben spread across the country.

Renaming cultivars is not only bad nursery etiquette, it is extremely confusing for the buying public. Sometimes a second nursery will rename, what a first nursery already renamed, then it becomes impossible to find out what anything really is.
Oscar

I agree 100% Oscar...but it gets confusing...
gray area...like with Red jabo vs hybrid jabo....did you ever ask marco about the translation and how he markets the variety in Brazil?  Seemed like they are one and the same....or at least I know I have the red one!!! LOL

know what I mean jelly bean?
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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2012, 01:18:14 AM »
Oscar - agree 100%.

By the way, I edited my previous post to correct the spellings/typos.  PJ/murahilin - I really wish you guys could find a way to fix the light gray color of the font while typing in a post  :)




Hi Adam, you can already change that light grey color to black already by just clicking Toggle View, that is the last button on bottom right (has red brackets around the symbol).
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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 01:22:56 AM »
Oscar - agree 100%.

By the way, I edited my previous post to correct the spellings/typos.  PJ/murahilin - I really wish you guys could find a way to fix the light gray color of the font while typing in a post  :)




Hi Adam Rob, you can already change that light grey color to black already by just clicking Toggle View, that is the last button on bottom right (has red brackets around the symbol).
Oscar

You are the man (and have earned your stripes as Sr. Member), or is that jelly bean :) :)  Maybe I wont be permanently cross-eyed after all.
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Re: WHICH CULTIVARS ARE JUST RENAMED OR THE SAME, ETC?
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 01:34:31 AM »
As if nursery name changing weren't  enough, even "official" names get changed.

Rollinia deliciosa  = Rollinia mucosa, the first one does sound more appetizing., I really think this should be in the Annona family anyway.

The we have all those that had a family name change from Rhedia to Garcinia.


Anyway, I have seen many garden seed suppliers that do the same thing with the names on some of their veggies.
William
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